Why do good buddhist monks go to hell?

[oneiric]

It is my hope that every human is given one last chance a split second before they die to change their heart and mind and accept the truth. This is a weird concept because it would mean those in the process of commiting suicide bombing could go to heaven. (speaking as a christian that is)

Many would do it out of fear, but you can't fool God.

 

[Take up the Cross]

Namaste Kyle,

thank you for the intelligent post.

i shall offer this as my first rebuttal statement:

"... for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness." (James 1:3; RSV)

Unlike Paul's faith without works, faith's tests must be met, and it can only be met by action. Even to continue in a righteous path of religious exercise one must do so by action. James proceeds to God's answer to prayer, in much the same light as Jesus did. When one approaches God one must be of an absolute belief that it will come to pass.

"If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God who gives to all men generously and without reproaching, and it will be given him. But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind." (James 1:5-6; RSV)

Faith alone is not sufficient, prayer is in evidence, and that without doubt or hesitation. When Jesus explained to us the gifts of the Father, he expressed himself in common, easily understood metaphors. Seek, knock, ask... but without doubt, without a faltering heart. That is putting faith into action.

If Paul's way is to be followed, one must ask why we are constantly tested. If Paul's way is to be followed, why are we told that we are never given a cross greater than we can bear? If Paul's way is to be followed, then Job is an example to no one.

"Blessed is the man who endures trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life which God has promised to those who love him." (James 1:12; RSV)

By interpreter's standards, vs. 17, is obscure "The terminology in the remainder of vs. 17 is almost hopelessly obscure and the textual evidence equally so." (The Interpreter's Bible; Volume 12: Page 29)

But it is plain enough when read in context with the entire subject of this part of the letter.

"Every good endowment and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of Lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change." (James 1:17; RSV)

God is steadfast, there is no change in God's person or action. There are no hidden motives, nothing in the 'shadow' of darkness to be revealed later, i.e., there is no deception in God. The Lord God has no human failings, no hypocrisy.

The difficulty is, as in other places in the Greek testaments and as opposed to the criticism of the Old Testament, that those involved are prejudiced. They are biased in their handling of the New Testament and do everything possible, legitimate or not, to uphold to an erroneous tradition. But, the truth be known, they have no choice.

This is the major reason that they continue to applaud Paul even when he has been proven wrong, not by this student, but by his own peers. Luke is an excellent example of the distortion he raises in his efforts to prove his superiority and his authority.

Again, the theologians of our time refer to James' writing as 'Christian', but note that, it is more akin to Judaism rather than Christianity. (The use of the term, the righteousness of God, is basically Jewish, and certainly not Pauline!) (The Interpreter's Bible; Volume 12: Page 31)

At this point, the author begins to take Paul to task. This must be repeated in its entirety.

"But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves... But he who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer that forgets but a doer that acts, he shall be blessed in his doing." (James 1:22-25; RSV)

The author of James also continues a path that seems to place the rich in a very bad light. He speaks of honoring the widow, and the orphan, and the poor man.

"Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this; to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained in the world." (James 1: 27; RSV)

"Is it not the rich who oppress you, is it not they who drag you into court? Is it not they who blaspheme that honorable name by which you are called?" (James 2:6-7; RSV)

James raises the inevitable question.

"What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?... So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead." (James 2:14-17; RSV)

This is a direct answer to Paul's irreconcilable, 'faith alone'. It refutes the Gospel that Paul perpetrated in the first days of the church and brings to us this very day. It is the stand of the Catholic church as it seeks reconciliation in the eyes of Protestant Christianity, bringing this same worthless message in an attempt to bind up a dying religion.

"But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith." (James 2:18; RSV)

It is impossible to prove Paul's stand other than by admitting action, as God states in His Holy Scriptures. To say that you have faith, or that you believe something, without acting on that statement proves nothing. Paul is playing word games. (The Interpreter's Bible; Volume 12: Page 43)


if you're interested, i'm happy to point out and explain the areas where i believe that Paul is teaching the things that i'm asserting about him...


"... our sufficiency is from God, who has qualified us to be ministers of a new covenant, not in a written code but in the Spirit; for the written code kills, but the Spirit gives life." (II Corinthians 3:5-6; RSV)

The written code is the Law of Moses. Paul states that it kills. Yet Jesus says that He came to fulfill the Law and that not one iota of it would be discarded.

"Now if the dispensation of death, carved in letters of stone, came with such splendor that the Israelites could not look at Moses' face because of its brightness, fading as this was.... Indeed, in this case, what once had splendor has come to have no splendor at all... Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not see the end of the fading splendor." (II Corinthians 3:7-13; RSV)

The least of all students knows that Paul has misused God's Holy Scripture here. This is not what the story in Exodus relates to us, nor is the meaning that Paul gives to it the truth. Moses' face was lit with a light that came from speaking with God! The 'dispensation of death' Paul speaks of is the, Ten Commandments, and he dares to say that it is fading, that God's work is temporary and incomplete? Those are his words, it must be his intent.

By, The Law, Paul means not only the ceremonial functions, but the entire legal canon established by the Pentateuch and embodied in Judaism. (The Interpreter's Bible; Volume 10: Page 307)

Whether we agree with Paul, or not, the fact is that he put down the Law of God, and that premise is also understood by Christian scholars.

There are, as you might imagine, many instances in Acts that refute Paul.. heck, Paul goes so far as to contradict himself 4 times... all related to his "vision" where he decided that he was a Nazerite, an Apostle.

The words 'faith alone' were never penned to Paul's name in any of his Epistles. The only place 'faith alone' appears is in James. Paul went on rantings and ravings about Christians and following the Law. (Romans 6) A Christian, by Paul's very definition, is dead to sin and alive to holiness. Thus they DO fulfill the Law as Jesus said.

When Paul talks about the Law in such negative terms: calling it 'death,' saying that it 'kills,' he is speaking Truth. The truth is, the Law does bring death and condemnation, because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. The Law that God established with the Jews could not be fulfilled by humanity in its sinfulness. The Jews couldn't live perfectly by it, nor could the Gentiles. So the end result was that it became 'death' for all. This is why Jesus Christ was sent to atone for sins.

People tend to get confused and hung up on 'works' in the Bible, OT and NT. There are two kinds of works: works of the Law that 'supposedly save' us, and works of fruition. These two types of works are oceans apart Biblically. Paul's basic argument throughout his Epistles is that man cannot 'earn' salvation. He cannot somehow get back into favor with God on his own, for he is separated from Him by his sins. No man has ever lived a holy and righteous life - we have all sinned, and need forgiveness from our Creator. We cannot do anything to 'merit' this forgiveness, which results in salvation. God needed to intervene through the person of Jesus Christ and die as a sacrifice for our sins. This is salvation through grace, by faith. Grace by definition is 'unmerited favor.' We do nothing to engender it - it is given as a gift.

Now, under this context, do you see why Paul is speaking of the Law as such? It cannot save man. Man cannot fulfill it. The Pharisees and Sadducees believed they were righteous before God by their own prideful work, when in reality they were not. ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Any attempt by man to reconcile this huge chasm between God and man will prove futile.

So we can see that salvation is nothing more than a gift, not received by works of the Law, but by the grace of Jesus Christ. This is Paul's arguement.

Now we come back to James, which you claim is refuting Paul, thus making the NT contradict itself. I said earlier that there were two types of work, and that the second is works of fruition. True, saving faith will manifest itself in good works. Period. End of story. When we place our faith on Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit enters us and purifies us, making us able to follow the Law, which is why Jesus said He came to fulfill it!

"What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?... So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead." (James 2:14-17; RSV)

A man cannot say he has saving faith in God and at the same time show no works of fruition. Where is the contradiction in this? Did Paul not say that believers are dead to sin, and alive to God? Where is the author of James 'refuting' Paul? Where does Paul deny the responsibility of Christians to uphold the Law? Both Jesus and Paul commanded people to be perfect and holy.

Biblical salvation can be evidenced in this mathematic equation:

Jesus + Faith = Fruit = salvation

True, saving faith will withstand testing, and required believers to hold on to the faith, perservere, and not falter. Paul warns Christians of falling, and encourages them to abide in the faith. Clearly, enduring to the end is part of being a true Christian. The same faith and trust in Jesus that saved us is the same that upholds us. God gives us grace, works in us, so we may work. Salvation is by grace, evidenced by works.

Kyle

 

[Take up the Cross]

What about the ancient Greeks or Celts? Are they now burning in hell?
Jeff the Finn

God is just. He judges people only to the light they have been given. He will never condemn somebody for something they could not avoid. These are the facts that I know. The cutoff lines and ramifications are up to God.

Kyle

 

[tcampen]

"God is just. He judges people only to the light they have been given. He will never condemn somebody for something they could not avoid. These are the facts that I know. The cutoff lines and ramifications are up to God."

This really seems to contradict the notion that salvation is by faith and not works. If you have someone in a far off land, very remote, and never exposed to christianity in any form whatsoever, you are saying that person will be judged by God and may still be granted salvation despite not having any faith in Jesus at all. If that is the case, then by what standard shall god judge that person. Well if faith is not longer an issue, then that leaves works - which is a reflection of one's heart.

In other words, your position makes works the criteria for salvation for anyone never exposed to Jesus. I am not aware of any scripture that suppports this position.

Personally, I think your concept of god makes far more sense than a more orthodox view. It is more reflective of a just god.

 

[Take up the Cross]

This really seems to contradict the notion that salvation is by faith and not works. If you have someone in a far off land, very remote, and never exposed to christianity in any form whatsoever, you are saying that person will be judged by God and may still be granted salvation despite not having any faith in Jesus at all. If that is the case, then by what standard shall god judge that person. Well if faith is not longer an issue, then that leaves works - which is a reflection of one's heart.

In other words, your position makes works the criteria for salvation for anyone never exposed to Jesus. I am not aware of any scripture that suppports this position.

Personally, I think your concept of god makes far more sense than a more orthodox view. It is more reflective of a just god.[/QUOTE]


Salvation is always, and will always be from the atonement of Jesus Christ. Works is not the criteria for salvation for people never exposed to the Gospel. It would be faith in an unknown Creator. Personally, I have no idea how He does it. However, I do not see the unevangelized as hopelessly lost.

God has ordained the means of salvation through Jesus, and told us to spread the Gospel to all nations. Would you argue for the fact that the Old Testament worthies (Moses, Abraham) were not saved? I wouldn't. They had faith in God, but knew not of Jesus. They had faith in whatever the true God promised. Thus the future atonement was extended to them.

How God deals with the unevangelized, I truly do not know. But I do know that God just, loving, and merciful. How God, in these atributes, deals with the unevangelized is something that is not revealed in Scripture, you are right. But I know God will do what is right.

Kyle

 

[tcampen]

Logic allows us to deduce the possible options to a given situation and predict the probable outcomes with provided premises.

Here are the Premises:

1. Salvation is by faith in the grace of Jesus, not by good works or good heart.

2. Those who have never been exposed to the grace of Jesus, however, may still be granted salvation notwithstanding Premise #1, after being judged by God.

3. If faith in Jesus is not the basis for granting salvation after being judged by god in situations of #2, then what is left to be judged on?

ANSWER:

Salvation can also be based on one's Works and Heart.

- While we may not KNOW how god deals with such issues, logic does allow us to narrow down the possibilities, and discover what is most probable.

 

[Take up the Cross]

My question to you is, what is 'good works,' and 'good heart' ?

God endows prevenient grace on all human beings. He draws us to Him. Someone who has never heard the Gospel may feel this tugging of the Spirit, and obey it, thus producing faith in an unknown God (Jesus). Faith in itself is a matter of the heart. But faith can be misplaced - the unevangelized must recognize that any gods around them are dead, if they are truly seeking.

Kyle

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Hmmm....

I've addressed this question on my website. This is what I think:

"Salvation only for Christians

This comes from an image of God as unable to let anyone into heaven unless they sign on the doctrinal dotted line. But it is not what the Bible says! Firstly, it is clear that God is looking for reasons to save, not to condemn, any given person:

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

How can it be otherwise, if God loves people? Jesus’ statement ‘I am the way, the truth and the life. No-one comes to the Father except through me’ is often quoted in this regard. But we must look at this in the context of John’s gospel (where the saying occurs), which has, at its opening:

John 1:9

The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.

Lights every man - Not just those who believe a particular set of propositions. But wherever folk are enlightened to what is right and good, it is this Light who enlightens them. And when they follow that enlightenment, they follow that Light.

John goes on to talk about salvation and judgement in these terms:

John 3:19-21

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of the light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.

Yes, access to God is through this Person, but we do not have to know His name. Jesus' claims of exclucivisity are correct; He and He alone is the reconciler between God and Man. But it is a far cry from that to saying that anyone who doesn't 'become a Christian' and sign on the correct dotted line is doomed to Hell. It is our attitude to the Light, to Grace and Truth, to Right and Wrong that matters. This is not salvation by works; it is not by doing the right things that God accepts us, but rather by our attitude - do we turn away from, or receive, the Light?"

 

[Nathan David]

God's attitude is nothing but love towards you. He wants you to be with Him. Why do you think He died in excruciating pain for you on the Cross?

I don't think he did. If there is a God, I am behaving in the way he created me to be. Nor do I think the created owes anything to the creator, just as lab rats have no obligation to obey or love the scientist who is experimenting on them.

 

[tcampen]

Contender...

I read your reply, but I fail to see how anything you cited supports the notion that a non-christian, nor ever was a christian during their physical life, can nevertheless attain salvation.

I think our own internal sense of justice says that it isn't fair for someone who's never heard of christianity to suffer eternity in damnation. But the fact is, if god saves people who have never been christians anyway, why the big push to spread the gospels to those who would otherwise be unaware of Jesus? The two seem to contradict eachother at least a little bit.

The bible does not directly address the issue of those who fail to make a concious decision to ask Jesus for salvation. This includes those who were never exposed to Christianity, and those who are too young to understand the concept at all. Different Christian sects disagree on this issue of salvation via free will. (i.e. this is one of the reasons baptism is so important within Catholicism.) Hmmmmmmmmmm. Makes you wonder.

 

[Take up the Cross]

I don't think he did. If there is a God, I am behaving in the way he created me to be. Nor do I think the created owes anything to the creator, just as lab rats have no obligation to obey or love the scientist who is experimenting on them.

You may not love Him, but He loves you - God is love.

Kyle

 

[Take up the Cross]

Hmmm....

I've addressed this question on my website. This is what I think:

"Salvation only for Christians

This comes from an image of God as unable to let anyone into heaven unless they sign on the doctrinal dotted line. But it is not what the Bible says! Firstly, it is clear that God is looking for reasons to save, not to condemn, any given person:

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

How can it be otherwise, if God loves people? Jesus’ statement ‘I am the way, the truth and the life. No-one comes to the Father except through me’ is often quoted in this regard. But we must look at this in the context of John’s gospel (where the saying occurs), which has, at its opening:

John 1:9

The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.

Lights every man - Not just those who believe a particular set of propositions. But wherever folk are enlightened to what is right and good, it is this Light who enlightens them. And when they follow that enlightenment, they follow that Light.

John goes on to talk about salvation and judgement in these terms:

John 3:19-21

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of the light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.

Yes, access to God is through this Person, but we do not have to know His name. Jesus' claims of exclucivisity are correct; He and He alone is the reconciler between God and Man. But it is a far cry from that to saying that anyone who doesn't 'become a Christian' and sign on the correct dotted line is doomed to Hell. It is our attitude to the Light, to Grace and Truth, to Right and Wrong that matters. This is not salvation by works; it is not by doing the right things that God accepts us, but rather by our attitude - do we turn away from, or receive, the Light?"

I believe that Jesus IS the only way to salvation. I think your explanation may prove right for pagan tribes and peoples who had absolutely no access to the Hebrew God, let alone Christ. But I think we need to be careful here. 'Accepting Jesus' is not some whimsical decision, but a result of the conviction of the Spirit, repenting, and throwing yourself at Jesus' feet. We are given grace to respond, and whether or not we do decides if we get more grace, leading to salvation. We cannot be so liberal as to allow the 'anonymous Christian' to be true anywhere. A Buddhist, a Muslim, who has openly rejected the Gospel of Christ is not somehow counted among His as Christians. Even a passing glance at the Gospel shows light. I never knew what Christianity was really about until I looked, until I responded to God pulling me. Seek and you shall find.

God has also commanded us to preach to all, using this as a means of saving the lost. We should follow this command, and let God take care of the rest. He is just; He knows what to do in every situation. But we mustn't be too lenient in our views regarding exclusivity.

Kyle

 

[Caedmon]

'Accepting Jesus' is not some whimsical decision, but a result of the conviction of the Spirit, repenting, and throwing yourself at Jesus' feet. We are given grace to respond, and whether or not we do decides if we get more grace, leading to salvation. We cannot be so liberal as to allow the 'anonymous Christian' to be true anywhere. A Buddhist, a Muslim, who has openly rejected the Gospel of Christ is not somehow counted among His as Christians.

How about the Muslim that refuses to convert because his family was slaughtered by Christian crusaders... does he go to Hell too?

 

[Take up the Cross]

How about the Muslim that refuses to convert because his family was slaughtered by Christian crusaders... does he go to Hell too?

C.S. Lewis' mother died when he was very young; he blamed God and became an atheist for a long time. He came to Christ.

A friend of mine that comes from an unbelieving, broken family came to Christ.

And most of all, Paul, who was a full-fledged, Christian-persecuting Jew came to Christ. He hated Christians for many reasons, and put many to death. But he repented and believed unto Christ.

Why look for endless amounts of 'exceptions' ? What good does that do? Why not just trust in Jesus Christ and preach His Word as He commanded, and truth Him to do the rest. He is no dummy - He is just, and in control.

Kyle

 

[vajradhara]

C.S. Lewis' mother died when he was very young; he blamed God and became an atheist for a long time. He came to Christ.

A friend of mine that comes from an unbelieving, broken family came to Christ.

And most of all, Paul, who was a full-fledged, Christian-persecuting Jew came to Christ. He hated Christians for many reasons, and put many to death. But he repented and believed unto Christ.

Why look for endless amounts of 'exceptions' ? What good does that do? Why not just trust in Jesus Christ and preach His Word as He commanded, and truth Him to do the rest. He is no dummy - He is just, and in control.

Kyle

what if... in his zeal to destroy Chrisitans, Saul simply pretended to be a Christian and then propogated his own beliefs... to undermine the true Ministry of Jesus? that would neatly explain the discrepencies between his statments and those of James and Luke. it would also explain how logos and all those other greek philosophical ideas became inbedded in Christianity.

humblejoe... you must accept that, for the Christian, everyone else is going to hell, regardless of religious affiliation or lack thereof. there is no "interpetation" in this regard.

 

[Reader Nilus]

Wow, all of this talk about the just God, if He were just then all of us without exception would be going to hell. But Our Lord Jesus showed us that God is in fact merciful, and so He is.

humblejoe... you must accept that, for the Christian, everyone else is going to hell, regardless of religious affiliation or lack thereof. there is no "interpetation" in this regard.

I disagree.
Jeff the Finn

 

[Take up the Cross]

what if... in his zeal to destroy Chrisitans, Saul simply pretended to be a Christian and then propogated his own beliefs... to undermine the true Ministry of Jesus? that would neatly explain the discrepencies between his statments and those of James and Luke. it would also explain how logos and all those other greek philosophical ideas became inbedded in Christianity.

humblejoe... you must accept that, for the Christian, everyone else is going to hell, regardless of religious affiliation or lack thereof. there is no "interpetation" in this regard.

I'll repeat myself in that I see no discrepancies in the Word of God. Your suppositions are just that - suppositions.

Being Christian is NOT about 'religious affiliation!!!' You do not seem to see the extremity of prostrating yourself before Christ, throwing it all at His feet to save you, knowing you cannot do anything. You call this 'religious affiliation'?

 

[Take up the Cross]

Wow, all of this talk about the just God, if He were just then all of us without exception would be going to hell. But Our Lord Jesus showed us that God is in fact merciful, and so He is.

I disagree.
Jeff the Finn

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6

Do you disagree with this?

Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." Acts 4:12

Or how about this?

Kyle

 

[vajradhara]

I'll repeat myself in that I see no discrepancies in the Word of God. Your suppositions are just that - suppositions.

Being Christian is NOT about 'religious affiliation!!!' You do not seem to see the extremity of prostrating yourself before Christ, throwing it all at His feet to save you, knowing you cannot do anything. You call this 'religious affiliation'?

Namaste TOC,

yes, that is precisely what i call it.

the Nicean Creed is a statement of religious affirmation, there is little question about this, in my opinion.

which extremity am i failing to see?

 

[Reader Nilus]

vajradhara, you are correct Christianity is a religion.
Jeff the Finn