Why do good buddhist monks go to hell?

[Take up the Cross]

Namaste TOC,

yes, that is precisely what i call it.

the Nicean Creed is a statement of religious affirmation, there is little question about this, in my opinion.

which extremity am i failing to see?

That being a Christian is not about affiliation. My parents were Catholic. Am I by default? I went to Catholic schools my whole life, was I a Catholic during any of those times? No, I wasn't even a Christian. Many people call themselves 'Christian,' and are not.

Being Christian by association or simply going to church is not being Christian at all. It's null faith - worthless.

Being a Christian means you have repented of your sins, relied totally on Christ's atonement for them, and presently live with the Holy Spirit indwelling. This is what a Christian is. Why you call this 'religious affiliation,' I do not know. And religious affirmation is FAR different than religious affiliation. An affirmation is a belief. It is living faith in Christ. This is not a tag, an affiliation, or a doctrinal signature. It's a personal surrender to Christ. Such a relationship deserves far more linguistic respect than the tag 'religious affiliation.'

Kyle

 

[tcampen]

"Wow, all of this talk about the just God, if He were just then all of us without exception would be going to hell. But Our Lord Jesus showed us that God is in fact merciful, and so He is."

Gee, if I were god, I would only exclude the truely evil from heaven rather that just those who subscribed to a narrow religious view. Now looking at the two from an objective point of view, which god would be more merciful....the one that let just a few in, or the one that allowed all but the most undeserving in? Hmmmmmmmm.....lemme see.....that's a tough one.

Ok, I got the answer, it's second one, yea that's the more merciful god.

But wait, if I can picture a more merciful god than the one you describe, then your god cannot be perfect as you say. But don't get mad at me for saying this, I'm just the messenger. Blame objective, rational thought.

 

[Caedmon]

humblejoe... you must accept that, for the Christian, everyone else is going to hell, regardless of religious affiliation or lack thereof. there is no "interpetation" in this regard.

I disagree. I believe that those that endure to the end in their pursuit of righteousness will be saved. And it is up to my God to judge whether they have done this, not me.

 

[Reader Nilus]

"Wow, all of this talk about the just God, if He were just then all of us without exception would be going to hell. But Our Lord Jesus showed us that God is in fact merciful, and so He is."

Gee, if I were god, I would only exclude the truely evil from heaven rather that just those who subscribed to a narrow religious view. Now looking at the two from an objective point of view, which god would be more merciful....the one that let just a few in, or the one that allowed all but the most undeserving in? Hmmmmmmmm.....lemme see.....that's a tough one.

Ok, I got the answer, it's second one, yea that's the more merciful god.

But wait, if I can picture a more merciful god than the one you describe, then your god cannot be perfect as you say. But don't get mad at me for saying this, I'm just the messenger. Blame objective, rational thought.

He would grant all and that is what He does mercy. But it is human free will that rejects heaven in favor of a self made hell. God will throw no one into hell.
Jeff the Finn

 

[vajradhara]

I disagree. I believe that those that endure to the end in their pursuit of righteousness will be saved. And it is up to my God to judge whether they have done this, not me.

Namaste humblejoe,

would you agree that your position is not the accepted position of mainstream Christianity?

i do perfer your take on it though...

 

[vajradhara]

That being a Christian is not about affiliation. My parents were Catholic. Am I by default? I went to Catholic schools my whole life, was I a Catholic during any of those times? No, I wasn't even a Christian. Many people call themselves 'Christian,' and are not.

Being Christian by association or simply going to church is not being Christian at all. It's null faith - worthless.

Being a Christian means you have repented of your sins, relied totally on Christ's atonement for them, and presently live with the Holy Spirit indwelling. This is what a Christian is. Why you call this 'religious affiliation,' I do not know. And religious affirmation is FAR different than religious affiliation. An affirmation is a belief. It is living faith in Christ. This is not a tag, an affiliation, or a doctrinal signature. It's a personal surrender to Christ. Such a relationship deserves far more linguistic respect than the tag 'religious affiliation.'

Kyle

Namaste toc,

you'll note that the statement of mine that you are quoting says "affirmation" rather than "affiliation".

nevertheless, it is both of those things... it is a statement of affirmation in your belief and at the same time a statement of affiliation in the group that believes as you do. these are not mutually exclusive terms.

this Creed is a statement of affirmation and affiliation and it's whole purpose of coming into existence was to be able to seperate the "correct" believers from the "incorrect" believers. based on that, Paul would be an incorrect believer (which i've elsewhere put forth) as would James, Mark, Luke and so forth.

predicating the "correct" belief system upon a Creed that was constituted well after the establishment of the Church would, necessarily, exclude all those that came before. perhaps the prevelant thought is that those personages would have said the Nicean Creed if they would have been around at that time, which, if the case, would seem to be pretty weak.

 

[tcampen]

He would grant all and that is what He does mercy. But it is human free will that rejects heaven in favor of a self made hell. God will throw no one into hell.
Jeff the Finn

This statement makes god less than all powerful. I'll put it this way...

God set up rules so that some will go to heaven, but a vast majority will not. The rules have NOTHING to do with how moral, good or benevolent the individual is, but only that they hold a very specific religious belief no later than their last breath on Earth. Thus, there will be people in heaven who have committed horrendous acts, and benevolent, good, charitable people in hell. If god is omnipotent, he has the power to do otherwise, or even have other rules we are not aware of.

But if you are right, is god being moral? For example, suppose a man was walking down the street and witnessed in an ally two men clearly about to brutalize and rape a woman. Nobody saw the act, except the man, and rapists moved the woman behind a dumpster so nonone else would see it. Around the corner, the witness sees two police standing there and if informed about the attack could easily save the woman. But the man walks right by the ally, walks right by the police, and says nothing to anyone. So, has the man acted morally, immorally, or neither? He could have stopped the attack without any real negative consequence to himself, yet chose not to.

See the connection? It's not a perfect analogy, but good enough to point out the faulty reasoning in the traditional salvation method. If anything, those christians who subscribe to the concept of salvation being predetermined by God from before time (Calvinists, generally) have a much better time with this dilemma. Hmmmmmmmm

 

[ZiSunka]

Why do good buddhist monks go to hell?

What is your definition of "good."

Buddhist monks spend their lives trying to transport themselves above daily life, and in doing so, they ignore the needy, the poor, the sick, or anyone else. They empty themselves of everyone and everything of this world. If they see someone sick or needy, they ignore the person, or assume that the person is receiving a just cosmic punishment.

But that wouldn't be our definition of "good" at all. A good buddhist monk is still just a hard-hearted person, no matter how "good" he sees himself to be.

 

[vajradhara]

What is your definition of "good."

Buddhist monks spend their lives trying to transport themselves above daily life, and in doing so, they ignore the needy, the poor, the sick, or anyone else. They empty themselves of everyone and everything of this world. If they see someone sick or needy, they ignore the person, or assume that the person is receiving a just cosmic punishment.

But that wouldn't be our definition of "good" at all. A good buddhist monk is still just a hard-hearted person, no matter how "good" he sees himself to be.

WHAT?!@?! your misunderstanding is truly staggering! i have no idea how you've come to this conclusion however i know that it is not from reading any Buddhist teachings or actually speaking with a Buddhist, for if you had done so, this would not be the conclusion that you would reach.

 

[Caedmon]

Namaste humblejoe,

would you agree that your position is not the accepted position of mainstream Christianity?

i do perfer your take on it though...

Well met and welcome vajradhara,

Mainstream evangelical thought often does not take this position. I am more Catholic in thought on the subject.

 

[Caedmon]

What is your definition of "good."

Buddhist monks spend their lives trying to transport themselves above daily life, and in doing so, they ignore the needy, the poor, the sick, or anyone else. They empty themselves of everyone and everything of this world. If they see someone sick or needy, they ignore the person, or assume that the person is receiving a just cosmic punishment.

But that wouldn't be our definition of "good" at all. A good buddhist monk is still just a hard-hearted person, no matter how "good" he sees himself to be.

It does not appear as though you understand Buddhism, imho.

 

[oneiric]

He would grant all and that is what He does mercy. But it is human free will that rejects heaven in favor of a self made hell. God will throw no one into hell.
Jeff the Finn

God is not a furry bunny! Hell was originally created for Satan and his angels. In the future it will contain those who join Satan in rejecting God. If you reject God's provision for the forgiveness of your sins then you will join the Devil who rejected God from the beginning.

 

[Take up the Cross]

Namaste toc,

you'll note that the statement of mine that you are quoting says "affirmation" rather than "affiliation".

nevertheless, it is both of those things... it is a statement of affirmation in your belief and at the same time a statement of affiliation in the group that believes as you do. these are not mutually exclusive terms.

this Creed is a statement of affirmation and affiliation and it's whole purpose of coming into existence was to be able to seperate the "correct" believers from the "incorrect" believers. based on that, Paul would be an incorrect believer (which i've elsewhere put forth) as would James, Mark, Luke and so forth.

predicating the "correct" belief system upon a Creed that was constituted well after the establishment of the Church would, necessarily, exclude all those that came before. perhaps the prevelant thought is that those personages would have said the Nicean Creed if they would have been around at that time, which, if the case, would seem to be pretty weak.

Actually, I don't even remember what the Nicean Creed says. I am not Christian by that Creed. I am Christian by what the Bible says. That is what I meant - I wasn't refering to the Nicene Creed.

 

[Take up the Cross]

"Wow, all of this talk about the just God, if He were just then all of us without exception would be going to hell. But Our Lord Jesus showed us that God is in fact merciful, and so He is."

Gee, if I were god, I would only exclude the truely evil from heaven rather that just those who subscribed to a narrow religious view. Now looking at the two from an objective point of view, which god would be more merciful....the one that let just a few in, or the one that allowed all but the most undeserving in? Hmmmmmmmm.....lemme see.....that's a tough one.

Ok, I got the answer, it's second one, yea that's the more merciful god.

But wait, if I can picture a more merciful god than the one you describe, then your god cannot be perfect as you say. But don't get mad at me for saying this, I'm just the messenger. Blame objective, rational thought.

God wants us all to be saved - He says it Himself. None of us are any more worthy than the next person, because we all have sins in our life that Jesus needs to atone for. This is what Jesus painfully died for. This is mercy, this is love. He has provided a way out for all people, equally. So if any man doesn't get into heaven, it is by his own design

 

[Take up the Cross]

Namaste humblejoe,

would you agree that your position is not the accepted position of mainstream Christianity?

i do perfer your take on it though...

I too believe that one must perservere to the end, and live a holy life - by the power of the Spirit. The Christian must perservere. Someone who says they are a Christian, but denies it by their lifestyle is a liar. Being a Christian starts with an acception of Jesus, but does not end there.

 

[Take up the Cross]

God is not a furry bunny! Hell was originally created for Satan and his angels. In the future it will contain those who join Satan in rejecting God. If you reject God's provision for the forgiveness of your sins then you will join the Devil who rejected God from the beginning.

I agree. You have to understand that God has many qualities - love, justice, mercy, and holiness/perfection. But those are the four main characteristics of God. He cannot deny one, for that would mean He is not God.

God's mercy and love - Sending Jesus Christ to die for the sins of mainking, so they may be with Him forever, because this is what He desires most.

God's holiness - God hates sin, and rightly so. But man is separated from God because of it. There must be a solution, and He provided one: Jesus.

God's justice - those who do not accept His method of salvation cannot justly go to heaven. God set up a fair system, where everyone could obtain salvation. But not all will, not because God's grace is insufficient, but because man is not willing, or gravitates towards sin.

God love, mercy, justice and holiness cannot be separate. God cannot allow everyone in Heaven merely because He is love - this denies His justice. Nor can He just let us slip away because He is just - because He is also merciful and loving! These qualities are inseparable.

Kyle

 

[tcampen]

God wants us all to be saved - He says it Himself. None of us are any more worthy than the next person, because we all have sins in our life that Jesus needs to atone for. This is what Jesus painfully died for. This is mercy, this is love. He has provided a way out for all people, equally. So if any man doesn't get into heaven, it is by his own design

So there is no difference between the Dali Lama and Hitler in Jesus' eyes? Do difference between Ghandi and Stalin? Hmmmmm.

I'm not discounting the concept of forgiveness as portrayed by Jesus one bit. I'm all for it. All I'm saying is that it would be MORE merciful to consider other factors beyond holding a narrow religious belief for eternity in heaven.

Put it this way. Suppose I saw 100 people starving to death. Only I had the ability to feed them and save their lives, and I had more than enough capability to feed each and every one of them. If I only fed 5 of them would I be acting as mercifully as if I fed all 100? Here's a hint....no. The more I fed the more merciful I would be. See the analogy?

 

[Take up the Cross]

So there is no difference between the Dali Lama and Hitler in Jesus' eyes? Do difference between Ghandi and Stalin? Hmmmmm.

I'm not discounting the concept of forgiveness as portrayed by Jesus one bit. I'm all for it. All I'm saying is that it would be MORE merciful to consider other factors beyond holding a narrow religious belief for eternity in heaven.

Put it this way. Suppose I saw 100 people starving to death. Only I had the ability to feed them and save their lives, and I had more than enough capability to feed each and every one of them. If I only fed 5 of them would I be acting as mercifully as if I fed all 100? Here's a hint....no. The more I fed the more merciful I would be. See the analogy?

Then we must ask why doesn't God just scoop up the entire human race into heaven in His love and mercy? You are leaving out His justice.

He is completely willing to feed all 100 people starving to death. But He can't feed them if they don't accept the food. He can't save them if they don't accept Jesus. See the analogy?

If you believe Jesus' concept in forgiveness, then I'm sure you believe other things He has said, such as there is no other name under heaven by which a man may be saved, and that no one comes to the Father but through Him. If Ghandi was preached the Gospel of Christ and did not forsake His ways of error and follow Christ, He has not accepted the food that was so FREELY offered to Him.

 

[ByGrace]

Why do good buddhist monks go to hell?

Because they didnt accept Jesus. Regardless of their karma. Really nothing more to it then that.

Oh and if God all of a sudden decided to allow others in that had not accepted Jesus, I would not have a single problem with that. It is His choice and I would just be happy that they had made it and still amazed that somehow He snatched me out of the sewage too. Unfortunately this is just not the case.

 

[TWells]

So there is no difference between the Dali Lama and Hitler in Jesus' eyes? Do difference between Ghandi and Stalin? Hmmmmm.

Of course there is a huge difference between the two and the Bible states that someone like Stalin will have it far worse on the day of judgement than Ghandi. But nevertheless Ghandi was a good person that helped alot of people, but however important it is in this life how we treat other people, its more important how we treat God. If we have a proper relationship with Him then we will treat others as we should. Your statement also ignores the fact that however a good person Ghandi was, he still sinned, he was still seperated from God and chose not to restore that relationship with him. He was created for the sole purpose to bear Gods image and have loving relationship with Him - as we all are.