The wedding at Cana: Wine or grape juice?

[Blank Stair]

It would help if you researched how to make wine.

First, I shown in two dictionaries (one very old and one recent) that the word "wine" can mean an unfermented wine (grape juice) or the juice of grapes. Second, Isaiah 65:8 says "new wine" is found in the cluster of the grape. Now, last I checked but the substance inside the cluster of grapes is not originally alcoholic.

Third, Scripture warns against just the use of alcohol and not only the abuse of it. Here are 33 warnings in Scripture against just the use of alcohol taken from an article.

1) Leviticus 10:9-11 - God commanded priests not to drink so that they could tell the difference between the holy and the unholy.

2) Numbers 6:3 - The Nazarites were told to eat or drink nothing from the grape vine.

3) Deuteronomy 29:5-6 - God gave no grape juice to Israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness.

4) Deuteronomy 32:33 - Intoxicating wine is like the poison of serpents, the cruel venom of asps.

5) Judges 13:4, 7, 14 - Samson was to be a Nazarite for life. His mother was told not to drink wine or strong drink.

6) 1 Samuel 1:14-15 - Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.

7) 1 Kings 20:12-21 - Ben-Hadad and 32 other kings were drinking when they were attacked and defeated by the Israelites.

8) Psalm 75:8 - The Lord’s anger is pictured as mixed wine poured out and drunk by the wicked.

9) Proverbs 4:17 - Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

10) Proverbs 20:1 - Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.

11) Proverbs 23:19-20 - A wise person will not be among the drinkers of alcoholic beverages.

12) Proverbs 23:31 - God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.

13) Proverbs 23:32 - Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.

14) Proverbs 23:33 - Alcohol causes the drinker to have strange and adulterous thoughts, produces willfulness, and prevents reformation.

15) Proverbs 23:34 - Alcohol makes the drinker unstable

16) Proverbs 23:35 - Alcohol is habit forming.

17) Proverb 31:4-5 - Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.

18) Ecclesiastes 2:3 - The king tried everything, including intoxicating drink, to see if it satisfied. It did not. (Ecclesiastes 12:8)

19) Ecclesiastes 10:17 - A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.

20) Isaiah 56:9-12 - Drinkers seek their own gain and expect tomorrow to be just like today.

21) Jeremiah 35:2-14 - The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.

22) Ezekiel 44:21 - Again God instructed the priests not to drink wine.

23) Daniel 1:5-17 - Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.

24) Hosea 4:11 - Intoxicating wine takes away intelligence.

25) Amos 2:12 - Israel is condemned for forcing Nazarites to drink wine.

26) Habakkuk 2:15 - Woe to him that gives his neighbor drink.

27) Habakkuk 2:16 - Drinking leads to shame.

28) Matthew 24:48-51 - A drinking servant is unprepared for his Lord’s return.

29) Luke 1:15 - John the Baptist drank neither grape juice nor wine.

30) 1 Timothy 3:2-3 - Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine.

31) 1 Timothy 3:8 - Deacons are to be worthy of respect and not drinkers.

32) 1 Timothy 3:11 - Deacons’ wives are to be temperate and sober.

33) Titus 2:2-3 - The older men and older women of the church are to be temperate and not addicted to wine.


Source:
http://www.scionofzion.com/drinking.htm

 

[katerinah1947]

Hi,

Romans 14, Wine is good unless you think it is bad, then it is bad for you.

But that is not what is being discussed. It is Jesus making wine, for a Wedding Feast, when the Wedding Feast bride and groom, would be embarasssed because of their poverty, or poor planning.

Romans 13:1-5. Prohibition does not work and gives money to the Mafia and their kind, by giving them something illegal to sell at high prices, so they can prosper. The Government repealed the anti alcohol laws for that reason and the fact that the laws didn't work. People drank anyway.

God says, all Chrisitians are to obey the laws, that He, God, makes for the Government. Being against the selling and production of alcohol is against God, and not me and not men, but against God's Laws.

To continue on, to be against God's Laws, to teach what God does not teach, is two violations. Both are to God. Romans 13:1-5, but in teaching what is not true, it is other laws.

All of our Bibles, have Romans 13:1-5. I don't get to pick and choose the laws of God. Only the Lord of the Sabbath, Jesus, can say anything about the laws. He told us the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. All laws, are made for man, not man for the laws. Thus to follow all laws of God, to the best of our abilities, is good for us.

I choose, until you get angry, to follow Mark 9:38-42. If you are not against us, you are for us.
I choose, to follow Romans 13:1-5, what the Government calls good, I call good, as it is what God calls good.
I choose, to follow Romans 14. All food is good, but some cannot bear to see others eat all foods, so to them, we are not to cause them to run away from God, by that action.
I choose to Love God, with all I have, in strength, will and my health. I do that by doing His Will as written with all I have, in strength, will and my health.

I choose to Love others, as I love myself. I choose to do their will in God, as I do the will of God for myself, again with all I possess, and my entire strength and my entire will.

I choose to love others as Jesus has loved me. I choose. There is more. I choose to follow the law in my mind and on my mind, as it is written. I choose to follow the laws of God in my heart and on my heart as it is written.

I also choose out of obediance, to be as grapelike, as I can be.

You are free to hold to your positions and your thoughts. You are not free with God to get them wrong. It is too important with God to get things wrong. Romans says wine is good, and you choose to ignore that.

Every servant of God, learns to be a servant of God, some of us through slavery to mankind, until we are fit to listen to God, and The King of Kings. Each slave, if you will, learns to leave nothing out of her master's words and wishes, and each slave, if you will, learns to leave nothing out of his master's words and wishes.

All of Scripture, is correct all of the time. It is in finding out how all of it can be true, simultaneously, that the slave is a good slave.

And it is in the slave being elevated by the master, to servant, and then to friend, and for some of us to things like The mother of God, that happens to good slaves.

Are you picking and choosing what you will do for God, by picking and choosing which parts of His words you will obey and which you will disobey? If you are not fine.

If you are not though, why do you not follow, the governments laws on alcohol. Why do you not follow what The Holy Spirit caused Paul to say in Romans 14, and it is, if you know God well, then you know all foods, including wine are good, but those who don't know God as well, they do not all know that, so be kind to them.

If you claim to know God well, if you claim to know the Bible well, then you must accept what The Holy Spirit says through Paul on food and government laws, for alcohol. If you do not, then you are still okay, if you just don't know God well enough yet.

Some here, know God very well, and very accurately. Aboiln is one of them, there are others.

Please let me know if I am angering you. I will stop. I have tried to see on my own. It is getting more difficult to know as time passes on.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[prodromos]

First, it's in the Catholic Bible and I do not agree with the Catholic religion.

Its in the Christian bible, in the Old Testament which was in common use throughtout the diaspora. It was the only Scriptures for non Hebrews until Latin and Syriac translations were made. You throw the baby out with the bath water.

Second, the Apocrypha contradicts the Word of God in many places.

One, it isn't Apocrypha but is known as Deuterocanonicals. Two, it doesn't contradict the rest of Scripture, your interpretation perhaps, but not Scripture.

 

[Rajni]

How can alcohol (Which is a drug) that destroys millions of lives each year be considered as mundane to God?

Maybe because He was the one who set the system in place
under which it could be made? What – am I supposed to think
He’s afraid of it? He knew when He created grapes what
they’d be used for.

Drunkenness is a result of alcohol;

It’s also been a result of water.
Is water, therefore, a sin to drink?

-

 

[prodromos]

The Jews drank a wine that was very low in alcoholic content

If that was the case then none of what you have quoted from the Old Testament, which was specifically for the Jews, would make any sense.

 

[katerinah1947]

Maybe because He was the one who set the system in place
under which it could be made? What – am I supposed to think
He’s afraid of it? He knew when He created grapes what
they’d be used for.

It’s also been a result of water.
Is water, therefore, a sin to drink?

-

Hi,

I just had the time to look up your reference for water intoxication.

It can result in death.

Thank you for enlightening us all.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Are folks really saying that water intoxication is a growing problem like alcohol intoxication?

That really doesn't make any sense.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Its in the Christian bible, in the Old Testament which was in common use throughtout the diaspora. It was the only Scriptures for non Hebrews until Latin and Syriac translations were made. You throw the baby out with the bath water.

One, it isn't Apocrypha but is known as Deuterocanonicals. Two, it doesn't contradict the rest of Scripture, your interpretation perhaps, but not Scripture.

It has nothing to do with interpretation. You simply believe it because your Catholic. I do not believe Catholism is Biblical for many obvious reasons in Scripture. Moses getting angry at his people for worshiping or giving reverence to an idol statue is just one of them. Yes, I am aware of the Catholic excuse commonly given for idols that they bow down to. But Paul says that we are not to even have any appearance of evil. But this is another topic, though.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It would help if you researched how to make wine.

First, I already researched wine numerous times. Second, you ignored the dictionaries that I quoted on the defintion of the word "wine." Third, you ignored the verses I brought up.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hi,

Romans 14, Wine is good unless you think it is bad, then it is bad for you.

But that is not what is being discussed. It is Jesus making wine, for a Wedding Feast, when the Wedding Feast bride and groom, would be embarasssed because of their poverty, or poor planning.

Romans 13:1-5. Prohibition does not work and gives money to the Mafia and their kind, by giving them something illegal to sell at high prices, so they can prosper. The Government repealed the anti alcohol laws for that reason and the fact that the laws didn't work. People drank anyway.

God says, all Chrisitians are to obey the laws, that He, God, makes for the Government. Being against the selling and production of alcohol is against God, and not me and not men, but against God's Laws.

To continue on, to be against God's Laws, to teach what God does not teach, is two violations. Both are to God. Romans 13:1-5, but in teaching what is not true, it is other laws.

All of our Bibles, have Romans 13:1-5. I don't get to pick and choose the laws of God. Only the Lord of the Sabbath, Jesus, can say anything about the laws. He told us the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. All laws, are made for man, not man for the laws. Thus to follow all laws of God, to the best of our abilities, is good for us.

I choose, until you get angry, to follow Mark 9:38-42. If you are not against us, you are for us.
I choose, to follow Romans 13:1-5, what the Government calls good, I call good, as it is what God calls good.
I choose, to follow Romans 14. All food is good, but some cannot bear to see others eat all foods, so to them, we are not to cause them to run away from God, by that action.
I choose to Love God, with all I have, in strength, will and my health. I do that by doing His Will as written with all I have, in strength, will and my health.

I choose to Love others, as I love myself. I choose to do their will in God, as I do the will of God for myself, again with all I possess, and my entire strength and my entire will.

I choose to love others as Jesus has loved me. I choose. There is more. I choose to follow the law in my mind and on my mind, as it is written. I choose to follow the laws of God in my heart and on my heart as it is written.

I also choose out of obediance, to be as grapelike, as I can be.

You are free to hold to your positions and your thoughts. You are not free with God to get them wrong. It is too important with God to get things wrong. Romans says wine is good, and you choose to ignore that.

Every servant of God, learns to be a servant of God, some of us through slavery to mankind, until we are fit to listen to God, and The King of Kings. Each slave, if you will, learns to leave nothing out of her master's words and wishes, and each slave, if you will, learns to leave nothing out of his master's words and wishes.

All of Scripture, is correct all of the time. It is in finding out how all of it can be true, simultaneously, that the slave is a good slave.

And it is in the slave being elevated by the master, to servant, and then to friend, and for some of us to things like The mother of God, that happens to good slaves.

Are you picking and choosing what you will do for God, by picking and choosing which parts of His words you will obey and which you will disobey? If you are not fine.

If you are not though, why do you not follow, the governments laws on alcohol. Why do you not follow what The Holy Spirit caused Paul to say in Romans 14, and it is, if you know God well, then you know all foods, including wine are good, but those who don't know God as well, they do not all know that, so be kind to them.

If you claim to know God well, if you claim to know the Bible well, then you must accept what The Holy Spirit says through Paul on food and government laws, for alcohol. If you do not, then you are still okay, if you just don't know God well enough yet.

Some here, know God very well, and very accurately. Aboiln is one of them, there are others.

Please let me know if I am angering you. I will stop. I have tried to see on my own. It is getting more difficult to know as time passes on.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

Right, and believers can do cocaine and drink human blood on a regular basis, too?

Remember, we are also the temple of God, too; And Scriptures says if a believer defiles or destroys their temple then God will destroy them.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If that was the case then none of what you have quoted from the Old Testament, which was specifically for the Jews, would make any sense.

There are three wines in the Bible.

1. Grape juice or the new wine in the cluster as per Isaiah 65:8.
2. Wine low in alcoholic content that the Jews normally drank.
3. Strong Wine where there are many Biblical warnings against the use of such a Wine.

 

[prodromos]

It has nothing to do with interpretation. You simply believe it because your Catholic. I do not believe Catholism is Biblical for many obvious reasons in Scripture. Moses getting angry at his people for worshiping or giving reverence to an idol statue is just one of them. Yes, I am aware of the Catholic excuse commonly given for idols that they bow down to. But Paul says that we are not to even have any appearance of evil. But this is another topic, though.

I'm not Catholic.

 

[katerinah1947]

Right, and believers can do cocaine and drink human blood on a regular basis, too?

Remember, we are also the temple of God, too; And Scriptures says if a believer defiles or destroys their temple then God will destroy them.

Hi,
Romans 14.
Romans 13:1-5.
Mark 9:38-42.
Stay on topic, please.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[prodromos]

2. Wine low in alcoholic content that the Jews normally drank.

This is merely your opinion. It is not supported by history.

 

[katerinah1947]

It has nothing to do with interpretation. You simply believe it because your Catholic. I do not believe Catholism is Biblical for many obvious reasons in Scripture. Moses getting angry at his people for worshiping or giving reverence to an idol statue is just one of them. Yes, I am aware of the Catholic excuse commonly given for idols that they bow down to. But Paul says that we are not to even have any appearance of evil. But this is another topic, though.

Hi,
And from this post to Prodromos, think about grapes and figs, what Jesus said about them in Matthew 7:15-16. Would they make false accusations?
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'm not Catholic.

My apologies. But please know that Eastern Orthodox is very similar to Catholicism in many ways, though. If we met in person and you did not tell me you were not Catholic, I would have no way of really knowing the difference (Because they are alot a like even though there are some differences).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is merely your opinion. It is not supported by history.

I have read many articles of quotes and sources from numerous historical documents and figures who did mix water with wine in Biblical times. However, if one is against such an idea, then it doesn't really matter what History says then.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hi,
And from this post to Prodromos, think about grapes and figs, what Jesus said about them in Matthew 7:15-16. Would they make false accusations?
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

It's not a false accusation. I said I am aware of the Catholic excuse and I do not agree with it being Biblical. You say that you are not worshiping the idol because you are just using the statue as a way to focus your thoughts on the one you are praying to. But God's Word says you are not to even make such idols in the first place. He also says to not bow down to them. God does not give a reason as to why we are not to make idols or statues and God does not give us a reason why we are not to bow down to them. He just says do not do it. Period.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Are folks really saying that water intoxication is a growing problem like alcohol intoxication?

That really doesn't make any sense.

No it's doesn't. but people get addicted to the sensation of drinking water so much that they drink too much of it and their blood cells burst and they die.

people can become addicted to anything.

 

[Blank Stair]

First, I already researched wine numerous times. Second, you ignored the dictionaries that I quoted on the defintion of the word "wine." Third, you ignored the verses I brought up.

No, I saw what you wrote. What you're ignoring is the scripture concerning Jesus turning water into wine at the wedding of Cana.
Going out and trying to argue, no Jesus didn't actually turn water into wine, should be ignored.
You oppose wine, alcohol, that's your right.
The scriptures tell us Jesus turned barrels of water into wine. He knew what he was doing, he had the power to do it, and he did it. And it was recorded and happened as written.

Are you aware that was the first miracle Jesus performed in his ministry? John 2:1-11.
There's a parable in the miracle hearkening to the change from the OT law to the NT grace. Moses turned water to blood. Jesus turned water to wine.

John 1:17
What did Jesus Christ establish to be taught in the churches? What He brought - in what we consider to be the New Testament era - is not at all contradictory or fundamentally different from what the Old Testament teaches. His message is complementary, completing the teaching of the Old Testament, rounding out and finishing God's revelation to mankind.

The word "but" in verse 17 has been inserted by the translators. In those Bibles that use the convention, it is in italics, which shows that it is a word added by the translators to clarify what they believe is the sense. Why did they choose "but"? The translators' fundamental belief is that Jesus came to change what was taught by Moses. However, if they had put together what the rest of the New Testament says, Jesus came and added to and completed what Moses and the other prophets preached. There is a better word to insert there: "and." Thus, "For the law was given through Moses andgrace and truth came through Jesus Christ." They are complementary, not contradictory. Perhaps the word "supplementary" would better explain it, thought what Jesus brought is both complementary and supplementary.

"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill" (Matthew 5:17). Consider a candy jar, which is filled only an inch. That represents what Moses taught, the law. But Jesus filled the rest of the candy jar full! Jesus brought the spirit of the law. He filled to the full the revelation of God.

What Moses taught in the law is the law of the Kingdom of God. It cannot be separated from the gospel of the Kingdom of God that Jesus brought because the Kingdom of God needs law to function. God's Kingdom is a real entity. It is designed to function, and it will only function through law and, of course, grace, as they work together.



Richard T. Ritenbaugh

You're attempting to argue against Jesus first miracle. The spirit that you claim is teaching you to do that is wrong. And that should teach you something right there when it seemingly teachings you to disbelieve Jesus miracle.

Yes, your arguments against Jesus miracle should be ignored.