The wedding at Cana: Wine or grape juice?

[prodromos]

However, in this view, any amount of drinking that causes one to not be sober in any way directly contradicts those passages that tell us to be sober minded.

None of those passages refer to alcohol.

 

[prodromos]

From the Old Testament.

Sirach 31:25-31
Do not aim to be valiant over wine, for wine has destroyed many.
Fire and water prove the temper of steel, so wine tests hearts in the strife of the proud.
Wine is like life to men, if you drink it in moderation.
What is life to a man who is without wine? It has been created to make men glad.
Wine drunk in season and temperately is rejoicing of heart and gladness of soul.
Wine drunk to excess is bitterness of soul, with provocation and stumbling.
Drunkenness increases the anger of a fool to his injury, reducing his strength and adding wounds.
Do not reprove your neighbor at a banquet of wine, and do not despise him in his merrymaking;
speak no word of reproach to him, and do not afflict him by making demands of him.​

 

[prodromos]

From the Psalms.

Psalm 104:14-15
Thou dost cause the grass to grow for the cattle, and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth, and wine to gladden the heart of man, oil to make his face shine, and bread to strengthen man’s heart.​

 

[Bible Highlighter]

None of those passages refer to alcohol.

While it is not referring directly to alcohol, the passages that tell us to be sober minded is talking about a mental state where we are supposed to be awake and on the look out. Intoxication is forbidden. It is drunkenness. And Paul says those who commit such a sin will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

From the Old Testament.

Sirach 31:25-31
Do not aim to be valiant over wine, for wine has destroyed many.
Fire and water prove the temper of steel, so wine tests hearts in the strife of the proud.
Wine is like life to men, if you drink it in moderation.
What is life to a man who is without wine? It has been created to make men glad.
Wine drunk in season and temperately is rejoicing of heart and gladness of soul.
Wine drunk to excess is bitterness of soul, with provocation and stumbling.
Drunkenness increases the anger of a fool to his injury, reducing his strength and adding wounds.
Do not reprove your neighbor at a banquet of wine, and do not despise him in his merrymaking;
speak no word of reproach to him, and do not afflict him by making demands of him.​

Sorry. I don't recognize that book as the Word of God. If you are referring to it as a historical souce that lines up with other historical documents and the Bible, then that's fine. But I would at least need to hear a mention of those other sources.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

From the Psalms.

Psalm 104:14-15
Thou dost cause the grass to grow for the cattle, and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth, and wine to gladden the heart of man, oil to make his face shine, and bread to strengthen man’s heart.​

As I said before, there are three types of wine in the Bible.

#1. Grape Juice
(Isaiah 65:8 says there is a new wine found in the cluster of the grape).
(It is the only type of wine that could have reflected Jesus's glory).
(It is also the only type of wine that most accurately parallels the blood of Jesus in the fact that it sinless and that it can bring life to us; Even any minor nutrients found in alcohol is useless to a drinker because they have to require even more nutrients from other food and drink sources just to metabolize the alcohol; In other words, alcohol only brings death and destruction it does not bring life).

#2. Wine used by the Israelites (i.e. the Jews).
(This was a mixture of one part wine and several parts of water; The wine found in the wine skins after enough time would be fermented wine. This was the concentrated wine that they would mix with water so as to have drinkable wine that was very low in alcoholic content; Hence, which was able to still make glad the hearts of men but yet not enough to get them intoxicated easily).
(Anyways, Jesus said that no man desires having the new after having tasted of the old. Meaning, it is hard for men who are stuck in their old covenant teachings to desire for new covenant teachings. The teachings are slightly different; And so is the wine.). (So the old wine was the wine that the Jews normally drank and the new wine is the pure blood of the grape that Jesus made).

#3. Strong Alcoholic Wines (Usually drunk by barbarians, certain Gentile nations, and disobedient Jews).
There are many warnings in Scripture against the very use of this type of wine. This Wine is considered strong in alcoholic content. There are variations of other strong alcoholic beverages referred to as strong drink. Habakkuk says woe unto him who gives his neighbor strong drink. Proverbs says to the OT saint that they are not to even look into the cup of such a beverage as it is red and moves itself aright. This wine is called a mocker and it can bite you like a serpent. Serpents put out poison when it bites. What an accurate description for such a drug. It is poison indeed. Who has sorrow? Who has woes? It is he that tarries after wine or seeks mixed drink. For alcohol is one of the top #1 killers in our world today. It had poisoned and destroyed more people and familes than you would care to think about.

 

[Albion]

As I said before. I provided points that condemn strong alcoholic wine and not just alcoholism..

As I said before (although I don't recall you taking any note of it), the amount of wine that's consumed in Holy Communion is hardly any more than would wet your lips, so the images painted of drunks and "strong alcoholic wine" (which it is not) is such linguistic overkill that it doesn't seriously address the issue.

Maybe you are unaware that the volume of grape juice consumed by a worshipper in a church that uses Welch's grape juice is much more than the amount of wine that is consumed by the worshipper in a typical church of the other kind.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Well .. it's not like he turned the water into vodka .. like could you imagine?

Basically the point of everything consumable is to not cause harm to yourself or others and to enjoy it and in that enjoyment share thanksgiving with God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

As I said before (although I don't recall you taking any note of it), the amount of wine that's consumed in Holy Communion is hardly any more than would wet your lips, so the images painted of drunks and "strong alcoholic wine" (which it is not) is such linguistic overkill that it doesn't seriously address the issue.

Maybe you are unaware that the volume of grape juice consumed by a worshipper in a church that uses Welch's grape juice is much more than the amount of wine that is consumed by the worshipper in a typical church of the other kind.

This is actually not Biblical at all. Nowhere do we see such a practice found in the New Testament. Believers gathered together to have fellowship once a week (usually) to celebrate the LORD's supper in their homes (and not a big church building). They would have a full meal and drink juice from a normal sized cup. They would be small groups usually and they would pray for one another. They would get to know one another and bear one another's burdens and thus fulfill the Law of Christ. They would all in the body have an interpretation, a doctrine, and a prophecy. They were all moved by the Holy Ghost to worship and praise God and share the Word with another. Yes, there were elders and teachers and pastors. But this is talking about those who are seasoned in the faith (and they acted more like father figures within the group and not as Lord's). Nowhere do we see a one man show type church found in the New Testament. Jesus said the greatest among you serves.

This is important to understand because if we say we are a believer in the Bible it is good that we actually try and follow and or mirror what the Bible says. For Paul says we are to follow his example even. Paul had worked at a job and did not charge money in preaching the gospel. Why would he charge money in fellowship? All money was used to help distribute it to the poor and to spread the gospel. It was not wasted on a Pastor's huge salary and or a large building. But that is another subject.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well .. it's not like he turned the water into vodka .. like could you imagine?

Basically the point of everything consumable is to not cause harm to yourself or others and to enjoy it and in that enjoyment share thanksgiving with God.

Alcohol is an addictive drug; And it only takes one drink to become an alcoholic. Hence, why the Bible says it can bite you like a serpent.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Alcohol is an addictive drug; And it only takes one drink to become an alcoholic. Hence, why the Bible says it can bite you like a serpent.

Some people's tolerance is higher than others so it is fine for them, some people have no tolerance at all and it is bad for them. Using old testament logic when there are new testament teachings on the subject sounds a bit judaizing.

 

[Albion]

This is actually not Biblical at all. Nowhere do we see such a practice found in the New Testament.

We've been all over this. Jesus and wine is clearly established in the New Testament, and the quote you were given by prodromos shows the spiritual Hebrew attitude towards wine near the time of Jesus' own life. Such writings as he cited may not be inspired, but they nevertheless have a historical value (which Christianity has traditionally recognized).

So to say that "nowhere do we see such a practice found in the New Testament" and say it at this stage of the discussion is just a non-starter.

Believers gathered together to have fellowship once a week (usually) to celebrate the LORD's supper in their homes (and not a big church building). They would have a full meal and drink juice from a normal sized cup.

We are talking about how WE today ought to commune, aren't we? This account of first-century Christian worship doesn't change anything, especially since you cannot show that they didn't use wine.

The grape juice movement is strictly a modern development, and you are endorsing it on the basis of your interpretation of Scriptural passages, not church history. If precedent were what we were determined to go by, wine would be the obvious "winner."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Some people's tolerance is higher than others so it is fine for them, some people have no tolerance at all and it is bad for them. Using old testament logic when there are new testament teachings on the subject sounds a bit judaizing.

While it is true that these warnings were technically for the Jew or the Israelite. They are truths that can still hold true today. I can still see in the world today how Wine bites like a serpent. Millions of people have died by the bite of alcohol (Either thru drunk driving, or over use of it because of addiction, etc.).

I am an Abstentionist and not a Prohibitionist. Prohibitionists believe drinking alcohol under any reason is a sin. I believe drinking alcohol in moderation whereby one is sober minded and in the privacy of their own home (So as not to make their brother to stumble) is lawful but it is not exactly profitable. For example: It may be lawful for you to swim in a river you know at certain times (on rare occasion) has alligators in it (Because you want to get the excersize), but it is not exactly profitable, though. I also believe alcohol can be used like any drug to temporarily relieve pain under the right circumstances. For Paul told Timothy to use a little wine for the infirmities of his stomach. This was not a social excuse to drink but a medical prescription. Anyways, Abstentionists believe that while it is lawful to drink and not profitable (to drink socially), it is strongly suggested that believers encourage one another to abstain from it (If they are able to). This is done not of some sense of Legalism but out of their love for God, love for themselves, and love for their fellow brethren.

For if you love the brethren, you would not want to see any kind of harm befall them. You want to protect them and guide them down the straight and narrow so as to put Jesus first in everything that they do.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

While it is true that these warnings were technically for the Jew or the Israelite. They are truths that can still hold true today. I am an Abstentionist and not a Prohibitionist. Prohibitionists believe drinking alcohol under any reason is a sin. I believe drinking alcohol in moderation whereby one is sober minded and in the privacy of their own home (So as not to make their brother to stumble) is lawful but it is not exactly profitable. For example: It may be lawful for you to swim in a river you know at certain times (on rare occasion) has alligators in it (Because you want to get the excersize), but it is not exactly profitable, though. I also believe alcohol can be used like any drug to temporarily relieve pain under the right circumstances. For Paul told Timothy to use a little wine for the infirmities of his stomach. This was not a social excuse to drink but a medical prescription. Anyways, Abstentionists believe that while it is lawful to drink and not profitable (to drink socially), it is strongly suggested that believers encourage one another to abstain from it (If they are able to). This is done not of some sense of Legalism but out of their love for God, love for themselves, and love for their fellow brethren.

Then according to Paul it is a sin for you. It may seem like it is out of a sense of love, but forcing your choice on others is controlling .. and is not love.

 

[Albion]

While it is true that these warnings were technically for the Jew or the Israelite. They are truths that can still hold true today. I am an Abstentionist and not a Prohibitionist. Prohibitionists believe drinking alcohol under any reason is a sin. I believe drinking alcohol in moderation whereby one is sober minded and in the privacy of their own home (So as not to make their brother to stumble) is lawful but it is not exactly profitable. .

This being said, I am of the opinion that most of this discussion is pointless. No one gets drunk going to Communion. The amount of wine consumed is miniscule and everyone remains sober. The "privacy of their own home" idea is strictly your personal slant on things; no one else sees the distinction having any importance, nor does Scripture.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We've been all over this. Jesus and wine is clearly established in the New Testament, and the quote you were given by prodromos shows the spiritual Hebrew attitude towards wine near the time of Jesus' own life. Such writings as he cited may not be inspired, but they nevertheless have a historical value (which Christianity has traditionally recognized).

So to say that "nowhere do we see such a practice found in the New Testament" and say it at this stage of the discussion is just a non-starter.


We are talking about how WE today ought to commune, aren't we? This account of first-century Christian worship doesn't change anything, especially since you cannot show that they didn't use wine.

The grape juice movement is strictly a modern development, and you are endorsing it on the basis of your interpretation of Scriptural passages, not church history. If precedent were what we were determined to go by, wine would be the obvious "winner."

You mean you are talking about Institional Church History (A one man show type church) and you are not talking about those who gathered in homes as shown to us in the New Testament.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This being said, I am of the opinion that most of this discussion is pointless. No one gets drunk going to Communion. The amount of wine consumed is miniscule and everyone remains sober. The "privacy of their own home" idea is strictly your personal slant on things; no one else sees the distinction having any importance, nor does Scripture.

Scriptures says we are not to eat or drink so as to make our brother to stumble. In our culture today, alcohol can be a temptation to many. If a fellow brother seen you drinking publically and he was seeking to find strength from you to stop drinking, you could very well discourage him in stopping to drink (in his battle against alcoholism).

For what happens if someone in your congregation were to slip back into alcoholism by being around the communion wine (After he vowed to never touch or see it again)? What would you think say or do in such a circumstance?

 

[Albion]

You mean you are talking about Institional Church History

That's what you were talking about too.

you are not talking about those who gathered in homes as shown to us in the New Testament.

It's true that the New Testament refers to worship in a house, but nowhere is this presented as more than a fact of life. There is no admonition against worshipping anywhere else or a command to use a home. In that very same century, Christians also worshipped in caves and, of necessity, catacombs. There is no basis, either scriptural or historical, to make worship in a house more than a temporary, optional, practical matter.

 

[Albion]

Scriptures says we are not to eat or drink so as to make our brother to stumble. In our culture today, alcohol can be a temptation to many. If a fellow brother seen you drinking publically and he was seeking to find strength from you to stop drinking, you could very well discourage him in stopping to drink (in his battle against alcoholism).

Then I recommend that you hit the bars and preach against public drunkenness. What we are discussing--Holy Communion--has none of the characteristics you are going on about, and it is a totally different matter.

No worshippers are scandalized or tempted because they see another member at the Communion rail, I assure you.

But if you think your theory is sound, let's consider all the other actions that could cause sin in an onlooker. You ought not post online because someone might become addicted to these discussions and jeopardize his family obligations. You ought not speak in public lest someone be tempted to start gossiping. You ought not wear colored clothes because someone seeing you might be tempted to be vain in his or her attire, wearing revealing or gaudy clothes.

And so on. Try as you have done, you can't squeeze a serious point about wine in Communion out of the "what ifs" you've raised.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That's what you were talking about too.


It's true that the New Testament refers to worship in a house, but nowhere is this presented as more than a fact of life. There is no admonition against worshipping anywhere else or a command to use a home. In that very same century, Christians also worshipped in caves and, of necessity, catacombs. There is no basis, either scriptural or historical, to make worship in a house more than a temporary, optional, practical matter.

The problem is that Institional Churches do not promote or help the body of Christ because they put all the pressure on one man and they focus their income on paying him and in keeping a building running (When such a thing is not Biblical and is not needed).