That great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.

[parousia70]

Originally Posted by parousia70

I thought it was implicit? - if scripture itself calls a city "That great city that reigns over the kings of the earth" I assume it speaks with sole authority on the matter... don't you?
​

Ah.. There is the problem..

You are asking the wrong guy, "you".

What does God think? He speaks through us in Spirit.


Now, have you asked God to show you the answers?

Knowledge and wisdom come freely with submission to the Lord, you only have to ask.

Fine, I'll amend my statement:
I contend it is implicit! - if scripture itself calls a city "That great city that reigns over the kings of the earth" I affirm it speaks with sole authority on the matter... don't you?

You like that better?

 

[parousia70]

No need, Ill paste this comment I made a page ago you never seemed to bother with.

I didn't bother with them because they don't address the point as well as you hope...

Scripture speaks on this relatively well...

Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters:

Rev 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.


Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:


Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Rev 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

Nothing here precluding Israel from being the city described...

This is not the same woman described here, which is obviously Israel found in Rev 12.

That's quite an assumption. and one you have yet to prove.

why don't you take the very scriptures I cited and show us why they don't mean what I contend they mean?

 

[parousia70]

Ill make it simple.


Woman in Rev 12= Israel (Clothed in sun with crown of 12 stars)

Woman in Rev 17=(I think Rome, or the Vatican) (Clothed in scarlet and red)

What in scripture leads you to "Think" it's the Vatican?
Or are you looking outside scripture for that interpretation?

I'll make it even more simple

Woman in Rev 12= Faithful remnant Israel (Clothed in sun with crown of 12 stars)

Woman in Rev 17= Apostate Israel (Clothed in scarlet and red)

 

[parousia70]

Rome fits the description of the harlot.

Rome is in the Bible.

Chapter and verse showing this, if you don't mind?

Apostate Israel not only fits the description of the harlot, Apostate Israel is called a "harlot/Harlot" in scripture more times than any other entity... again, we need not look outside scripture, for scripture alone provides all the proof we need to discern who the Harlot is:

1. Jeremiah 3:1 [ Israel Is Shameless ] “They say, ‘If a man divorces his wife, And she goes from him And becomes another man’s, May he return to her again?’ Would not that land be greatly polluted? But you have played the harlot with many lovers; Yet return to Me,” says the Lord.
   Jeremiah 3:1-3 (in Context) Jeremiah 3 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
2. Jeremiah 3:3 Therefore the showers have been withheld, And there has been no latter rain. You have had a harlot’s forehead; You refuse to be ashamed.
   Jeremiah 3:2-4 (in Context) Jeremiah 3 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
3. Jeremiah 3:8 Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a certificate of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but went and played the harlot also.
   Jeremiah 3:7-9 (in Context) Jeremiah 3 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
4. Jeremiah 13:27 I have seen your adulteries And your lustful neighings, The lewdness of your harlotry, Your abominations on the hills in the fields. Woe to you, O Jerusalem! Will you still not be made clean?”
   Jeremiah 13:26-27 (in Context) Jeremiah 13 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
5. Ezekiel 16:15 [ Jerusalem’s Harlotry ] “But you trusted in your own beauty, played the harlot because of your fame, and poured out your harlotry on everyone passing by who would have it.
   Ezekiel 16:14-16 (in Context) Ezekiel 16 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
6. Ezekiel 16:16 You took some of your garments and adorned multicolored high places for yourself, and played the harlot on them. Such things should not happen, nor be.
   Ezekiel 16:15-17 (in Context) Ezekiel 16 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
7. Ezekiel 16:17 You have also taken your beautiful jewelry from My gold and My silver, which I had given you, and made for yourself male images and played the harlot with them.
   Ezekiel 16:16-18 (in Context) Ezekiel 16 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
8. Ezekiel 16:20 “Moreover you took your sons and your daughters, whom you bore to Me, and these you sacrificed to them to be devoured. Were your acts of harlotry a small matter,
   Ezekiel 16:19-21 (in Context) Ezekiel 16 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
9. Ezekiel 16:22 And in all your abominations and acts of harlotry you did not remember the days of your youth, when you were naked and bare, struggling in your blood.
   Ezekiel 16:21-23 (in Context) Ezekiel 16 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
10. Ezekiel 16:25 You built your high places at the head of every road, and made your beauty to be abhorred. You offered yourself to everyone who passed by, and multiplied your acts of harlotry.
    Ezekiel 16:24-26 (in Context) Ezekiel 16 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
11. Ezekiel 16:26 You also committed harlotry with the Egyptians, your very fleshly neighbors, and increased your acts of harlotry to provoke Me to anger.
    Ezekiel 16:25-27 (in Context) Ezekiel 16 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
12. Ezekiel 16:28 You also played the harlot with the Assyrians, because you were insatiable; indeed you played the harlot with them and still were not satisfied.
    Ezekiel 16:27-29 (in Context) Ezekiel 16 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
13. Ezekiel 16:29 Moreover you multiplied your acts of harlotry as far as the land of the trader, Chaldea; and even then you were not satisfied.
    Ezekiel 16:28-30 (in Context) Ezekiel 16 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
14. Ezekiel 16:30 “How degenerate is your heart!” says the Lord God, “seeing you do all these things, the deeds of a brazen harlot.
    Ezekiel 16:29-31 (in Context) Ezekiel 16 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
15. Ezekiel 16:31 [ Jerusalem’s Adultery ] “You erected your shrine at the head of every road, and built your high place in every street. Yet you were not like a harlot, because you scorned payment.
    Ezekiel 16:30-32 (in Context) Ezekiel 16 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
16. Ezekiel 16:34 You are the opposite of other women in your harlotry, because no one solicited you to be a harlot. In that you gave payment but no payment was given you, therefore you are the opposite.”
    Ezekiel 16:33-35 (in Context) Ezekiel 16 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
17. Ezekiel 16:35 [ Jerusalem’s Lovers Will Abuse Her ] ‘Now then, O harlot, hear the word of the Lord!
    Ezekiel 16:34-36 (in Context) Ezekiel 16 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

Continued.....

 

[parousia70]

Continuing.....

1. Ezekiel 16:36 Thus says the Lord God: “Because your filthiness was poured out and your nakedness uncovered in your harlotry with your lovers, and with all your abominable idols, and because of the blood of your children which you gave to them,
   Ezekiel 16:35-37 (in Context) Ezekiel 16 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
2. Ezekiel 20:30 Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Are you defiling yourselves in the manner of your fathers, and committing harlotry according to their abominations?
   Ezekiel 20:29-31 (in Context) Ezekiel 20 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
   Ezekiel 23:2-4 (in Context) Ezekiel 23 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
3. Ezekiel 23:11 [ The Younger Sister, Jerusalem ] “Now although her sister Oholibah saw this, she became more corrupt in her lust than she, and in her harlotry more corrupt than her sister’s harlotry.
   Ezekiel 23:10-12 (in Context) Ezekiel 23 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
4. Ezekiel 23:14 But she increased her harlotry; She looked at men portrayed on the wall, Images of Chaldeans portrayed in vermilion,
   Ezekiel 23:13-15 (in Context) Ezekiel 23 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
5. Ezekiel 23:18 She revealed her harlotry and uncovered her nakedness. Then I alienated Myself from her, As I had alienated Myself from her sister.
   Ezekiel 23:17-19 (in Context) Ezekiel 23 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
6. Ezekiel 23:19 “Yet she multiplied her harlotry In calling to remembrance the days of her youth, When she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt.
   Ezekiel 23:18-20 (in Context) Ezekiel 23 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
7. Ezekiel 23:27 ‘Thus I will make you cease your lewdness and your harlotry Brought from the land of Egypt, So that you will not lift your eyes to them, Nor remember Egypt anymore.’
   Ezekiel 23:26-28 (in Context) Ezekiel 23 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
8. Ezekiel 23:29 They will deal hatefully with you, take away all you have worked for, and leave you naked and bare. The nakedness of your harlotry shall be uncovered, both your lewdness and your harlotry.
   Ezekiel 23:28-30 (in Context) Ezekiel 23 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
9. Ezekiel 23:30 I will do these things to you because you have gone as a harlot after the Gentiles, because you have become defiled by their idols.
   Ezekiel 23:29-31 (in Context) Ezekiel 23 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
10. Ezekiel 23:35 “Therefore thus says the Lord God: ‘Because you have forgotten Me and cast Me behind your back, Therefore you shall bear the penalty Of your lewdness and your harlotry.’”
    Ezekiel 23:34-36 (in Context) Ezekiel 23 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
11. Ezekiel 43:7 And He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever. No more shall the house of Israel defile My holy name, they nor their kings, by their harlotry or with the carcasses of their kings on their high places.
    Ezekiel 43:6-8 (in Context) Ezekiel 43 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
12. Ezekiel 43:9 Now let them put their harlotry and the carcasses of their kings far away from Me, and I will dwell in their midst forever.
    Ezekiel 43:8-10 (in Context) Ezekiel 43 (Whole Chapter) Other Translation
13. Hosea 4:11 [ The Idolatry of Israel ] “Harlotry, wine, and new wine enslave the heart.
    Hosea 4:10-12 (in Context) Hosea 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
14. Hosea 4:12 My people ask counsel from their wooden idols, And their staff informs them. For the spirit of harlotry has caused them to stray, And they have played the harlot against their God.
    Hosea 4:11-13 (in Context) Hosea 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
15. Hosea 4:15 “Though you, Israel, play the harlot, Let not Judah offend. Do not come up to Gilgal, Nor go up to Beth Aven, Nor swear an oath, saying, ‘As the Lord lives’—
    Hosea 4:14-16 (in Context) Hosea 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
16. Amos 7:17 “Therefore thus says the Lord: ‘Your wife shall be a harlot in the city; Your sons and daughters shall fall by the sword; Your land shall be divided by survey line; You shall die in a defiled land; And Israel shall surely be led away captive From his own land.’”

 

[parousia70]

OOPS... duplicate

 

[parousia70]

Now... help the rest of us understand how, with ZERO scriptural verses citing ROME explicitly as a Harlot, and with the MYRIAD of scriptural verses citing Jerusalem/Israel EXPLICITLY as a Harlot, you still insist Rome, or the Vatican, is the scriptural Harlot?

I mean, you do claim everything you believe is straight out of the Bible, don't you?

 

[parousia70]

Woman in Rev 17=(I think Rome, or the Vatican) (Clothed in scarlet and red)

Again, scripture points to ISRAEL as clothed in Scarlet, not Rome or the Vatican:

1. Exodus 39:1 [ Making the Garments of the Priesthood ] Of the blue, purple, and scarlet thread they made garments of ministry, for ministering in the holy place, and made the holy garments for Aaron, as the Lord had commanded Moses.
   Exodus 39:1-3 (in Context) Exodus 39 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
2. Exodus 39:2 [ Making the Ephod ] He made the ephod of gold, blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and of fine woven linen.
   Exodus 39:1-3 (in Context) Exodus 39 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
3. Exodus 39:3 And they beat the gold into thin sheets and cut it into threads, to work it in with the blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and the fine linen, into artistic designs.
   Exodus 39:2-4 (in Context) Exodus 39 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
4. Exodus 39:5 And the intricately woven band of his ephod that was on it was of the same workmanship, woven of gold, blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and of fine woven linen, as the Lord had commanded Moses.
   Exodus 39:4-6 (in Context) Exodus 39 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
5. Exodus 39:8 [ Making the Breastplate ] And he made the breastplate, artistically woven like the workmanship of the ephod, of gold, blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and of fine woven linen.
   Exodus 39:7-9 (in Context) Exodus 39 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
6. Exodus 39:24 They made on the hem of the robe pomegranates of blue, purple, and scarlet, and of fine woven linen.
   Exodus 39:23-25 (in Context) Exodus 39 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
7. Exodus 39:29 and a sash of fine woven linen with blue, purple, and scarlet thread, made by a weaver, as the Lord had commanded Moses.
   Exodus 39:28-30 (in Context) Exodus 39 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
8. 2 Samuel 1:24 “O daughters of Israel, weep over Saul, Who clothed you in scarlet, with luxury; Who put ornaments of gold on your apparel.
   2 Samuel 1:23-25 (in Context) 2 Samuel 1 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

 

[parousia70]

Our readers can see the preponderance of scriptural evidence points exclusively to Israel... while you might "FEEL" like it's Rome, or "THINK" it's the Vatican, Scripture AFFIRMS it is Israel.

But what do I know... I just read the Bible and believe what it says.

 

[DancesWithGnostics]

It's Israel - city Jerusalem where priests wore robes the color mentioned

 

[parousia70]

Show me now how Jerusalem fits rev17.

I notice u didn't even touch that,

Did you even read my OP?

It is EXCLUSIVELY about showing How Israel is that great city that reigns over the Kings of the Earth in Rev 17:18

There can be no other city occupying that position.

How can you claim I didn't even touch that when it is the VERY TITLE OF MY THREAD??

I can show you many other harlots in the bible, are they all Isreal?

Go ahead. I welcome it.

Can you show me even one that is Rome, or the Vatican?

 

[parousia70]

Show me now how Jerusalem fits rev17.

Show me the connection so you can bring me to your thinking. .

Just compare Revelation 17 with Ezekiel 16 and you will find the connection I speak of.

In both Ezekiel and Revelation, the prostitute commits adultery with the kings of the earth; is dressed in splendor; glitters with gold and precious jewels; and is intoxicated with the blood of the righteous. And that is but a glimpse of her unveiling. In Ezekiel, the prostitution of Jerusalem made that of her sisters— Samaria and Sodom—look insignificant by comparison. And in Revelation she is in bed with imperial Rome. In the end, the great prostitute aligns herself with Caesar in piercing Christ and persecuting Christians. The golden cup in her hand is filled with “the blood of prophets and of the saints and of all who have been killed on the earth” (Revelation 18:24). Shrouded in mystery, she was glorious—like “the most beautiful of jewels” (Ezekiel 16:7). Unveiled as apostate Israel, she is grotesque.

When we consider the fact that the essence of Revelation involves a contrast between the purified bride and a prostituted bride, the identity of apostate Israel as the great prostitute becomes unmistakable. While the prostituted bride bears the mark, “Mystery, Babylon the great, the mother of prostitutes, and of the abominations of the earth” (17:5), the purified bride bears the moniker of the Lord and the Lamb on her forehead.

 

[parousia70]

Rome is where the Papacy sits, has 1.5 billion catholics, and in fact sits in every nation on earth.

Papal colors are scarlet and red.

The kings of the earth go to the Pope, not Netanyahu...

The Papacy is guilty flat out of killing Christians. This isnt something you need to look that far into history to prove.

If you are going to continue to rely solely on non biblical evidence to bolster your claims I'm not sure we can continue the discussion. Can we stick to scripture please? I don't hold newspaper eisegesis as authoritative.

Besides, we have two women in Revelation, why are they different?

One is clearly Israel, this is not a contention.

So you are saying that Jerusalem is both Rev 12 and Rev 17???

Like I said, one is FAITHFUL REMNANT ISRAEL/JERUSLAEM
The other is APOSTATE ISRAEL/JERUSALEM

 

[parousia70]

So the woman gives birth, runs and hides from the beast, then gets on the beast and goes for a stroll?

Do you understand the difference between Faithful Remnant Israel and Apostate Israel?

They are NOT the same.

Ever read Hebrews?

 

[parousia70]

I read your op, I see nothing that parallels the attributes of the harlot to modern day Israel.

Hey, you and I agree on something!

Modern day Israel is a Multi Ethnic SECULAR Democratic Nation State that exists without any covenant relationship to God and has zero relationship to the pre desolation Hebrew Theocracy that once shared it's Name and Geography.

Modern Day Israel is not the harlot of Babylon, that is for sure.

 

[parousia70]

Here are the prophecies concerning the Jews return, which whether or not you want to admit it, already happened..

Isa 43:5 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;

Isa 43:6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;

Isa 51:3 For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody.

Mic 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

Eze 36:11 And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

Eze 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

Would you like more verses?

Sure! Post all you can find. Just keep in mind that All the prophecies about the dispersion and return of the Jews to their own land were fulfilled at the end the Babylonian Captivity in 457 B.C.,— not 1948 when the Multi Ethnic SECULAR State of Israel was formed.

"In all your dwelling places the cities shall be laid waste, and the high places desolate . . . ye shall be scattered among the countries . . . among the nations whither they shall be carried captives . . . all the house of Israel shall remove and go into captivity . . . I will scatter them among the nations" (Ezekiel ch. 6–12).

This was the Diaspora. . . . And now the re-gathering of the Jews to their own land 70 years later:

"For thus saith the Lord, that after 70 years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you . . . and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations . . . and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive" (Jeremiah. 29: 10-14).

Not one single verse in the Old Testament, or New, written after the Babylonian Captivity mentions any other dispersion and re-gathering of the Jews. NOT EVEN ONE.

 

[parousia70]

Sure thats fine.

Show me how Babylon equates to North of Israel, South, East and West.

"For thus saith the Lord, that after 70 years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you . . . and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations . . . and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive" (Jeremiah. 29: 10-14).

"All the Nations" seems pretty clear to me and must encompass north south east and west.

You negate Romans, which says the Jews will be re grafted, that must be a painful verse for you..

Israel is: Jesus and his JEWISH FOLLOWERS, with gentiles grafted in. And for the past 2000 years, Jews have been continually grafted back in to that when they accept Jesus as their lord and savior. Nowhere is it prophesied that every Jew from all time will be grafted back in. Many will and have perished.

I just realized you are cATHOLIC.

Congratulations!

Why are we talking about prophecy again?? Do you guys even believe in the prophecies given??

Yep. Every last one.

 

[parousia70]

Jer 29:14 I will be found by you, declares the LORD, and I will restore your fortunes and gather you from all the nations and all the places where I have driven you, declares the LORD, and I will bring you back to the place from which I sent you into exile.

Again, no prophesy written after the babylonian captivity mentions any further dispersal and regathering.

The Bible says they WOULD be dispersed into all nations,
The Bible then confirms they DID get dispersed into all nations.
The Bible says they would be gathered back FROM all nations.
The Bible then confirms they WERE gathered back from All nations.

Propetic fulfillment has been realized. No further fulfillment of this prophesy is necessary or biblically warranted.

There are two olive trees, one is Jews, one is Gentiles.

The Root is Christ.

The Jews have been severed, and the Gentiles grafted.

Not ALL Jews have been severed Vrba... you should know that... Heck from the Baptism of Christ to the stoning of Steven the Church was EXCLUSIVELY Jewish...and those Jewish Christians were NOT severed when the gentiles were grafted in.

The Jews will be re-grafted, as the Bible foretells.

Simple.

Yep. They are being re grafted in every day Vrba. Every Day.

 

[Old Timer]

Of course once again.. you'll never hear the Israel haters speak of Jerusalem as the city of the great king, where the LORD will sit upon the throne of His glory when He comes in His glory..

Nope.. just stuff like how she's a harlot...

That sort of thing..

Exactly what the rulers of the darkness of this world would have all men believe and embrace as truth.

 

[Old Timer]

They cant be pointing fingers at the real problem, themselves.

Yeah, they're all infallible over there.. just what the rulers of darkness would have them believe..

And if this isn't calling the kettle black, then I'm not sure what else would qualify.