A Literal Interpretation of the 70 Weeks that Doesn't Force Anything

[Warrior89]

SUMMARY​

• The 70 "weeks" refer to Sabbath-year cycles (7 years each).
  • Daniel's prayer relates to the exile in Babylon, which is based on Israel's violations of the Sabbath year and their consequences as laid out in Leviticus 26. His plea for restoration aligns with the prophecy's promise of ending sin and bringing righteousness.
  • Furthermore, this interpretation aligns with the same Greek word for "weeks" used in Leviticus 25 and Daniel 9:25 in the Septuagint, and was a recognized interpretation in early Jewish literature.
• The prophecy starts with Cyrus's decree (539 BC) allowing the Jews to rebuild Jerusalem.
  • This decree fulfills prophecies about Cyrus in Isaiah (44:28, 45:13).
  • However, the actual Sabbath Year cycles didn't restart until Ezra's mission in 458-457 BC, when Jewish law was fully reinstated in Jerusalem and Judea.
• The 69 weeks mark the time until the Messiah arrives. This aligns with Jesus's baptism in 27 AD
• Jesus was crucified "after" the 69 weeks, not "in" the 70th week.
  • This, among other things, allows for a gap between the weeks.
• The subsequent destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans (70 AD) confirms the prophecy's prediction of temple/city destruction by the Romans.
  • There have been wars and desolations in Jerusalem since then, fulfilling the last part of verse 26.
• The 70th week is yet to come and will include the future abomination of desolation, marking a key end-times event.
  • Historically, abomination of desolation refers to an idolatrous act in the temple (Dan. 11:31). Therefore, Jesus cannot be the fulfillment of this prophecy.

FULL POST​

Background: The Babylonian Exile

Israel was supposed to let the land rest for a year every 7 years.

"For six years you shall sow your field, and for six years you shall prune your vineyard and gather in its produce, but during the seventh year the land shall have a Sabbath rest, a Sabbath to the Lord; you shall not sow your field nor prune your vineyard." - Leviticus 25:3

They also descended into idolatry and terrible sins. As a result, Israel went into exile in Babylon for their sin.

31 I will turn your cities into ruins as well and make your sanctuaries desolate, and I will not smell your soothing aromas. 32 And I will make the land desolate so that your enemies who settle in it will be appalled at it. 33 You, however, I will scatter among the nations, and I will draw out a sword after you, as your land becomes desolate and your cities become ruins. (Leviticus 26:31-33)

The exile was not finished until 70 years were completed for Babylon.

‘Then the land will restore its Sabbaths all the days of the desolation, while you are in your enemies’ land; then the land will rest and restore its Sabbaths. All the days of its desolation it will have the rest which it did not have on your Sabbaths, while you were living on it. (Leviticus 26:34-35)

"to fulfill the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its Sabbaths. All the days of its desolation it kept the Sabbath until seventy years were complete." - 2 Chronicles 36:21

(For a discussion of the length of the exile, and what the 70 years refer to, see this link:

JEREMIAH'S SEVENTY YEARS FOR BABYLON: A RE-ASSESSMENT PART I: THE SCRIPTURAL DATA

and this link:

JEREMIAH'S SEVENTY YEARS FOR BABYLON: A RE-ASSESSMENT PART 2: THE HISTORICAL DATA

Daniel's Prayer​

While in exile in Babylon, Daniel realizes that the 70 years for Babylon have ended. This is proven by the fact that Darius was "of Median descent," and was in charge at the time.

In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of Median descent, who was made king over the kingdom of the Chaldeans— 2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of the years which was revealed as the word of the Lord to Jeremiah the prophet for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years. (Daniel 9:1-2)

Therefore, he prays a prayer of repentance specified by Leviticus 26 for when the nation is in exile.

11 Indeed, all Israel has violated Your Law and turned aside, not obeying Your voice; so the curse has gushed forth on us, along with the oath which is written in the Law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against Him. 12 So He has confirmed His words which He had spoken against us and against our rulers who ruled us, to bring on us great disaster; for under the entire heaven there has not been done anything like what was done in Jerusalem. 13 Just as it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come on us; yet we have not sought the favor of the Lord our God by turning from our wrongdoing and giving attention to Your truth. (Daniel 9:11-13)

and also

16 Lord, in accordance with all Your righteous acts, let now Your anger and Your wrath turn away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain; for because of our sins and the wrongdoings of our fathers, Jerusalem and Your people have become an object of taunting to all those around us. 17 So now, our God, listen to the prayer of Your servant and to his pleas, and for Your sake, Lord, let Your face shine on Your desolate sanctuary. (Daniel 9:16-17)

Compare to Leviticus 26...

40 ‘But if they confess their wrongdoing and the wrongdoing of their forefathers, in their unfaithfulness which they committed against Me, and also in their acting with hostility against Me— 41 I also was acting with hostility against them, to bring them into the land of their enemies—or if their uncircumcised heart is humbled so that they then make amends for their wrongdoing, 42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and I will remember also My covenant with Isaac, and My covenant with Abraham as well, and I will remember the land. 43 For the land will be abandoned by them, and will restore its Sabbaths while it is made desolate without them. They, meanwhile, will be making amends for their wrongdoing, because they rejected My ordinances and their soul loathed My statutes. (Leviticus 26:40-43)

The Angel's Answer to Daniel's Prayer​

As a result, God responds by sending an angel to answer Daniel's prayer.

“Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the wrongdoing, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place." - Daniel 9:24

The angel says it will take 70 "weeks" for the Jews and Jerusalem to bring in "everlasting righteousness" and for them to stop sinning. We've already established a really strong link between Leviticus 26 and Daniel 9. So what are the weeks?

Definition of "Weeks"​

The Septuagint is the Greek translation of the Old Testament used in the time of Jesus. It's translation abbreviation is "LXX." The Septuagint refers to "weeks" in two different places. The first is Daniel 9:24-25 of course.

"Seventy weeks [Greek: ἑβδομάδες] have been determined..." (Daniel 9:25b Brenton's LXX)

...there shall be seven weeks [Greek: ἑβδομάδες], and sixty-two weeks [Greek: ἑβδομάδες]... (Daniel 9:25b Brenton's LXX)

What's the ONLY OTHER PLACE that uses this Greek word for "weeks"? You guessed it. Leviticus!

"And thou shalt reckon to thyself seven sabbaths of years, seven times seven years; and they shall be to thee seven weeks [Greek: ἑβδομάδες] of years, nine and forty years." (Leviticus 25:8 Brenton's LXX)

Genesis 1:1 (LXX)

"εβδομαδες" primary search results are listed below along with dictionary aides, FAQs, and Lexiconc.

www.blueletterbible.org

Apparently, the interpretation of the "weeks" as Sabbath year cycles is found in multiple other Jewish documents BEFORE Christ. This view was apparently held within 5 centuries after Christ as well.

"That shavu'a meant the sabbatical cycle is attested in Qumran, rabbinic and epigraphic documents."

"The difference between the two interpretations is that, according to the former, any septennial number will do; according to the latter, however, each seven-year period had its fixed place in a series, precise in beginning and end. A second difference stems from the first. Modern exegetes interpret the passage without reference to Jewish chronology current at that time. The ancients, however, took it for granted that the numbers in 9:24-27 had to harmonize with their calendar of sabbatical cycles." -Ben Zion Wacholder

CHRONOMESSIANISM: THE TIMING OF MESSIANIC MOVEMENTS AND THE CALENDAR OF SABBATICAL CYCLES

Therefore, "weeks" are Sabbath year cycles, not just any old 7-year period.

The Decree to Restore and Rebuild Jerusalem​

So you are to know and understand that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until Messiah the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with streets and moat, even in times of distress. (Daniel 9:25)

(Notice also, the apparent allusion to Leviticus 25:8 with the forty-nine years of the verse above).

What then is the kick-off decree? Bear with me a moment, but I think many people are onto something when they say it has to be the decree of Cyrus to let the Jews return home. This is actually REQUIRED theologically.

It is I who says of Cyrus, ‘He is My shepherd,
And he will carry out all My desire.’
And he says of Jerusalem, ‘She will be built,’
And of the temple, ‘Your foundation will be laid.’”
(Isaiah 44:28)

and also...

I have stirred him in righteousness,
And I will make all his ways smooth.
He will build My city and let My exiles go free,
Without any payment or reward,” says the Lord of armies. (Isaiah 45:13)

Though not always historically accurate, the 1st Century Jewish historian, Josephus, agrees with this:

"Cyrus also sent an Epistle to the Governours, that were in Syria: the contents whereof here follow.
'King Cyrus to Sisinnes, and Sathrabuzanes, sendeth Greeting.
I have given leave to as many of the Jews that dwell in my countrey as please, to return to their own countrey, and to rebuild their city, and to build the temple of God at Jerusalem, on the same place where it was before."' -Josephus

Josephus: Antiquities of the Jews, Book XI

It looks like Cyrus authorized rebuilding of the city, as well as the temple.

When Did Wall-Building ACTUALLY Begin?​

In fact, we see building activity by Jews after Ezra arrived in the 7th Year of Artaxerxes (457-458 BC).

The Theological Problem Presented by the Exactness of Daniel's 70 Weeks

From the acknowledgments on the first page: “My thanks to Steven Rudd, pastor in Hamilton Ontario, who suggested in the fall of 2019 that we look more closely at the dates associated with the interpretation that we both held for Daniel’s 70 weeks.

www.academia.edu

"11 this is a copy of the letter which they sent to him:
“To King Artaxerxes: Your servants, the men of the region beyond the Euphrates River; and now 12 let it be known to the king that the Jews who came up from you have come to us at Jerusalem; they are rebuilding the rebellious and evil city and are finishing the walls and repairing the foundations. (Ezra 4:11-12)

This was why Nehemiah was so upset when he heard that the walls were in ruins (Nehemiah 1:3). It was not because of the city's destruction from nearly 150 years prior! He would have known about that.

Most scholars, however, do not believe that Nehemiah’s distress was caused by the condition of walls torn down one hundred forty years before his time but rather by the episode of Ezra 4:7–23. According to this passage Jews had attempted to rebuild the walls earlier, in the reign of Artaxerxes I. But after the protest of Rehum and Shimshai, the king ordered the Jews to desist.

Nehemiah Esther Expositors Bible Commentary

Furthermore, Nehemiah's mission was primarily about REPAIRS, which only took 52 days!! (Nehemiah 6:15)

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: repairs

www.biblegateway.com

Some people start the Daniel 9:27 decree with Nehemiah. But this is not accurate, because they have to use 360-day years for the calculation, when literal years are required by context of the SOLAR 70 years of the desolations of Jerusalem.

But the Cyrus decree doesn't line up with the coming of Jesus, does it? That happened in 539 BC.

Keep reading to see how it does.

When Do the "Weeks" Begin?​

Remember, Sabbath-year cycles aren't just any 7-year period. They correspond to times in Jewish history. But Sabbath year cycles are only observed when in the land.

25 The Lord then spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai, saying, 2 “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘When you come into the land which I am going to give you, then the land shall have a Sabbath to the Lord. (Leviticus :25:1-2)

Jews were allowed to go to Jerusalem to rebuild the temple (and apparently, the city). But they probably didn't start observing Sabbath-Year cycles at that point. The actual weeks didn't start until 457-458 BC, when Ezra took another group of returnees and re-instituted Jewish law in Jerusalem and Judea.

"25 “And you, Ezra, according to the wisdom of your God which is in your hand, appoint magistrates and judges so that they may judge all the people who are in the province beyond the Euphrates River, that is, all those who know the laws of your God; and you may teach anyone who is ignorant of them. 26 And whoever does not comply with the Law of your God and the law of the king, judgment is to be executed upon him strictly, whether for death or for banishment, or for confiscation of property or for imprisonment.”" - Ezra 7:25-26

The Going Forth of Artaxerxes’ Decree Part 1

Joomla! - the dynamic portal engine and content management system

biblearchaeology.org

This lines right up to the baptism of Jesus in 26-27 AD!!

Daniel's 70-Week Prophecy Converges with Sabbatical and Jubilee Years to Uniquely Date the Ministry and Crucifixion of Jesus Christ

Among modern Bible scholars, the two most commonly accepted dates for Jesus’ crucifixion are either Nisan 30 AD or Nisan 33 AD. Many researchers have called upon Daniel’s 70-Week Prophecy to support their Crucifixion date of choice. However, another

www.academia.edu

But what happens AFTER the 62 and 7 weeks?

AFTER the 69 Weeks​

Then after the sixty-two weeks, the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. (Daniel 9:26)

Historians lean towards a crucifixion date of 30 A.D. Some say it's 33, but I think the slight majority prefer the 30 A.D. date. As we know from history, Jesus was killed and rejected by his people "AFTER" the 69 weeks, not "IN" the 70th week. The Romans came after this and destroyed the city and sanctuary as predicted by Daniel. This happened in 70 A.D.

And since then, Jerusalem has been sacked or sieged numerous times in history.

Siege of Jerusalem - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This is consistent with the wars and desolations until "the end."

26 Then after the sixty-two weeks, the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

this aligns with Christ's words as well:

Woe to those women who are pregnant, and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land, and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The 70th Week​

"And he will confirm a covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come the one who makes desolate, until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, gushes forth on the one who makes desolate.”

This part hasn't happened yet. Jesus stated that the "abomination of desolation" was future from the standpoint of the first century. (Matthew 24). This also supports a "gap" between the end of the 69th week and the 70th week, since both refer to abomination of desolation. The abomination of desolation precedes the resurrection of the dead in the end times (Daniel 12) and happens in close proximity to the return of Christ in Matthew 24. Therefore, it is an end times event.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 24 - New American Standard Bible

Signs of Christ’s Return - Jesus left the temple area and was going on His way when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. But He responded and said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will...

www.biblegateway.com

Furthermore, Jesus can't be the one who "makes desolate" as some interpreters claim. Abomination of desolation is associated with idolatry in the temple (Daniel 11:31), not our Savior.

Thoughts?

 

[eleos1954]

SUMMARY​

• The 70 "weeks" refer to Sabbath-year cycles (7 years each).
  • Daniel's prayer relates to the exile in Babylon, which is based on Israel's violations of the Sabbath year and their consequences as laid out in Leviticus 26. His plea for restoration aligns with the prophecy's promise of ending sin and bringing righteousness.
  • Furthermore, this interpretation aligns with the same Greek word for "weeks" used in Leviticus 25 and Daniel 9:25 in the Septuagint, and was a recognized interpretation in early Jewish literature.
• The prophecy starts with Cyrus's decree (539 BC) allowing the Jews to rebuild Jerusalem.
  • This decree fulfills prophecies about Cyrus in Isaiah (44:28, 45:13).
  • However, the actual Sabbath Year cycles didn't restart until Ezra's mission in 458-457 BC, when Jewish law was fully reinstated in Jerusalem and Judea.
• The 69 weeks mark the time until the Messiah arrives. This aligns with Jesus's baptism in 27 AD
• Jesus was crucified "after" the 69 weeks, not "in" the 70th week.
  • This, among other things, allows for a gap between the weeks.
• The subsequent destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans (70 AD) confirms the prophecy's prediction of temple/city destruction by the Romans.
  • There have been wars and desolations in Jerusalem since then, fulfilling the last part of verse 26.
• The 70th week is yet to come and will include the future abomination of desolation, marking a key end-times event.
  • Historically, abomination of desolation refers to an idolatrous act in the temple (Dan. 11:31). Therefore, Jesus cannot be the fulfillment of this prophecy.

FULL POST​

Background: The Babylonian Exile

Israel was supposed to let the land rest for a year every 7 years.



They also descended into idolatry and terrible sins. As a result, Israel went into exile in Babylon for their sin.



The exile was not finished until 70 years were completed for Babylon.





(For a discussion of the length of the exile, and what the 70 years refer to, see this link:

JEREMIAH'S SEVENTY YEARS FOR BABYLON: A RE-ASSESSMENT PART I: THE SCRIPTURAL DATA

and this link:

JEREMIAH'S SEVENTY YEARS FOR BABYLON: A RE-ASSESSMENT PART 2: THE HISTORICAL DATA

Daniel's Prayer​

While in exile in Babylon, Daniel realizes that the 70 years for Babylon have ended. This is proven by the fact that Darius was "of Median descent," and was in charge at the time.



Therefore, he prays a prayer of repentance specified by Leviticus 26 for when the nation is in exile.



and also



Compare to Leviticus 26...

The Angel's Answer to Daniel's Prayer​

As a result, God responds by sending an angel to answer Daniel's prayer.



The angel says it will take 70 "weeks" for the Jews and Jerusalem to bring in "everlasting righteousness" and for them to stop sinning. We've already established a really strong link between Leviticus 26 and Daniel 9. So what are the weeks?

Definition of "Weeks"​

The Septuagint is the Greek translation of the Old Testament used in the time of Jesus. It's translation abbreviation is "LXX." The Septuagint refers to "weeks" in two different places. The first is Daniel 9:24-25 of course.





What's the ONLY OTHER PLACE that uses this Greek word for "weeks"? You guessed it. Leviticus!

Genesis 1:1 (LXX)

"εβδομαδες" primary search results are listed below along with dictionary aides, FAQs, and Lexiconc.

www.blueletterbible.org

Apparently, the interpretation of the "weeks" as Sabbath year cycles is found in multiple other Jewish documents BEFORE Christ. This view was apparently held within 5 centuries after Christ as well.





CHRONOMESSIANISM: THE TIMING OF MESSIANIC MOVEMENTS AND THE CALENDAR OF SABBATICAL CYCLES

Therefore, "weeks" are Sabbath year cycles, not just any old 7-year period.

The Decree to Restore and Rebuild Jerusalem​

(Notice also, the apparent allusion to Leviticus 25:8 with the forty-nine years of the verse above).

What then is the kick-off decree? Bear with me a moment, but I think many people are onto something when they say it has to be the decree of Cyrus to let the Jews return home. This is actually REQUIRED theologically.



and also...



Though not always historically accurate, the 1st Century Jewish historian, Josephus, agrees with this:

Josephus: Antiquities of the Jews, Book XI

It looks like Cyrus authorized rebuilding of the city, as well as the temple.

When Did Wall-Building ACTUALLY Begin?​

In fact, we see building activity by Jews after Ezra arrived in the 7th Year of Artaxerxes (457-458 BC).

The Theological Problem Presented by the Exactness of Daniel's 70 Weeks

From the acknowledgments on the first page: “My thanks to Steven Rudd, pastor in Hamilton Ontario, who suggested in the fall of 2019 that we look more closely at the dates associated with the interpretation that we both held for Daniel’s 70 weeks.

www.academia.edu

This was why Nehemiah was so upset when he heard that the walls were in ruins (Nehemiah 1:3). It was not because of the city's destruction from nearly 150 years prior! He would have known about that.



Nehemiah Esther Expositors Bible Commentary

Furthermore, Nehemiah's mission was primarily about REPAIRS, which only took 52 days!! (Nehemiah 6:15)

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: repairs

www.biblegateway.com

Some people start the Daniel 9:27 decree with Nehemiah. But this is not accurate, because they have to use 360-day years for the calculation, when literal years are required by context of the SOLAR 70 years of the desolations of Jerusalem.

But the Cyrus decree doesn't line up with the coming of Jesus, does it? That happened in 539 BC.

Keep reading to see how it does.

When Do the "Weeks" Begin?​

Remember, Sabbath-year cycles aren't just any 7-year period. They correspond to times in Jewish history. But Sabbath year cycles are only observed when in the land.



Jews were allowed to go to Jerusalem to rebuild the temple (and apparently, the city). But they probably didn't start observing Sabbath-Year cycles at that point. The actual weeks didn't start until 457-458 BC, when Ezra took another group of returnees and re-instituted Jewish law in Jerusalem and Judea.

The Going Forth of Artaxerxes’ Decree Part 1

Joomla! - the dynamic portal engine and content management system

biblearchaeology.org

This lines right up to the baptism of Jesus in 26-27 AD!!

Daniel's 70-Week Prophecy Converges with Sabbatical and Jubilee Years to Uniquely Date the Ministry and Crucifixion of Jesus Christ

Among modern Bible scholars, the two most commonly accepted dates for Jesus’ crucifixion are either Nisan 30 AD or Nisan 33 AD. Many researchers have called upon Daniel’s 70-Week Prophecy to support their Crucifixion date of choice. However, another

www.academia.edu

But what happens AFTER the 62 and 7 weeks?

AFTER the 69 Weeks​

Then after the sixty-two weeks, the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. (Daniel 9:26)

Historians lean towards a crucifixion date of 30 A.D. Some say it's 33, but I think the slight majority prefer the 30 A.D. date. As we know from history, Jesus was killed and rejected by his people "AFTER" the 69 weeks, not "IN" the 70th week. The Romans came after this and destroyed the city and sanctuary as predicted by Daniel. This happened in 70 A.D.

And since then, Jerusalem has been sacked or sieged numerous times in history.

Siege of Jerusalem - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This is consistent with the wars and desolations until "the end."



this aligns with Christ's words as well:

The 70th Week​

This part hasn't happened yet. Jesus stated that the "abomination of desolation" was future from the standpoint of the first century. (Matthew 24). This also supports a "gap" between the end of the 69th week and the 70th week, since both refer to abomination of desolation. The abomination of desolation precedes the resurrection of the dead in the end times (Daniel 12) and happens in close proximity to the return of Christ in Matthew 24. Therefore, it is an end times event.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 24 - New American Standard Bible

Signs of Christ’s Return - Jesus left the temple area and was going on His way when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. But He responded and said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will...

www.biblegateway.com

Furthermore, Jesus can't be the one who "makes desolate" as some interpreters claim. Abomination of desolation is associated with idolatry in the temple (Daniel 11:31), not our Savior.

Thoughts?

There are not gaps in history ... time is continuous ... there are indeed events yet to occur until the return of our Lord, prophecies related to actual prophetic time have been fulfilled ... we now look for signs and events ... no one knows the day or hour of our Lords return ... what we do know is when He returns judgement in heaven has taken place ... in the heavenly courts.

The prophecies of Daniel present a succession of events leading down to the opening of the judgment when thrones would be set up and the Ancient of Days would sit as thousands upon ten thousands of heavenly beings would witness as the books were opened and the work of the grand heavenly court began. (See Daniel 7: 9-10)

However, that part of his prophecy which related to the last days, Daniel was told to SEAL, to close up until the time of the end (the end of prophetic time). Not until this time was reached could a mighty message concerning the judgment be proclaimed, based on the fulfillment of these prophecies. At that time, "many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." (Daniel 12:4

Then, at the end of the 1260 years, knowledge shall be increased.

In Revelation 10 the book is opened-- it is the END OF THE 1260 years-- and when judgement began in heaven.

His time is near ... when judgement has been completed in heaven He will return.

Similar to the days of Noah .... proclaiming judgement will happen ... not when it will happen.

Noah warned them that if they did not repent, they would be destroyed by a flood. No date given to him by God.

So, it is today ... the message for repentance going out and that His return is near ... the door of salvation is open until the return of the Lord, we only know that time is near ... no date given.

 

[RandyPNW]

The 70th Week​

This part hasn't happened yet. Jesus stated that the "abomination of desolation" was future from the standpoint of the first century. (Matthew 24). This also supports a "gap" between the end of the 69th week and the 70th week, since both refer to abomination of desolation. The abomination of desolation precedes the resurrection of the dead in the end times (Daniel 12) and happens in close proximity to the return of Christ in Matthew 24. Therefore, it is an end times event.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 24 - New American Standard Bible

Signs of Christ’s Return - Jesus left the temple area and was going on His way when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. But He responded and said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will...

www.biblegateway.com

Furthermore, Jesus can't be the one who "makes desolate" as some interpreters claim. Abomination of desolation is associated with idolatry in the temple (Daniel 11:31), not our Savior.

Thoughts?

As I've likely commented before, I see no reason to deny that the 70th Week has already happened. Most of the Church Fathers believed that the prophecy was fulfilled in Christ's earthly ministry and in the 70 AD destruction that followed. Christ was crucified in the midst of the 70th Week, fulfilling the prophecy. And the fall of Jerusalem followed the death of Christ as a judgment against the Jews.

Those who wish the Abomination of Desolation to be the future Antichrist have that agenda, to make this a Futurist prophecy. Only about 2 or 3 Church Fathers held to this view, but it has obtained popularity in the US today.

I am a Futurist, and yet find no need to make this a Futurist prophecy. Christ referred to the AoD as the Roman Army that would overrun Jerusalem, in accordance with Dan 9.26.

The only problem I have is in understanding the "covenant" that the Roman leadership will make to complete the 70th Week. Perhaps he is inadvertently committing to let the Law be practiced in the Week of Jesus' ministry? But then he suddenly decides to end temple worship, indirectly, by having Christ crucified?

Anyway, this appears to be fulfilled in the 70th Week, completing the prophecy of Christ's Salvation. Making it Futurist Prophecy is, I think, a big mistake, if you want to understand Dan 9 and the Olivet Discourse.

 

[Jan001]

There are not gaps in history ... time is continuous ... there are indeed events yet to occur until the return of our Lord, prophecies related to actual prophetic time have been fulfilled ... we now look for signs and events ... no one knows the day or hour of our Lords return ... what we do know is when He returns judgement in heaven has taken place ... in the heavenly courts.

I agree. The 70th week followed immediately after the 69th week just as the 68th week followed immediately after the 67th week.

The prophecies of Daniel present a succession of events leading down to the opening of the judgment when thrones would be set up and the Ancient of Days would sit as thousands upon ten thousands of heavenly beings would witness as the books were opened and the work of the grand heavenly court began. (See Daniel 7: 9-10)

However, that part of his prophecy which related to the last days, Daniel was told to SEAL, to close up until the time of the end (the end of prophetic time). Not until this time was reached could a mighty message concerning the judgment be proclaimed, based on the fulfillment of these prophecies. At that time, "many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." (Daniel 12:4

As you said, Daniel was told to seal up part of his prophecy until the time of the end.

Daniel 12:9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.

Jesus explained when this "time of the end" began:

Luke 16:16 “The law and the prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and every one enters it violently.

Then, at the end of the 1260 years, knowledge shall be increased.

In Revelation 10 the book is opened-- it is the END OF THE 1260 years-- and when judgement began in heaven.

His time is near ... when judgement has been completed in heaven He will return.

Similar to the days of Noah .... proclaiming judgement will happen ... not when it will happen.

Noah warned them that if they did not repent, they would be destroyed by a flood. No date given to him by God.

So, it is today ... the message for repentance going out and that His return is near ... the door of salvation is open until the return of the Lord, we only know that time is near ... no date given.

I agree that after the resurrection and ascension of Jesus, judgment began in heaven. All the saints in heaven, their spirits without their physical bodies, are reigning in heaven with Jesus right now. The righteous spirits who were waiting in Abraham's bosom until Jesus' death on the cross have been spiritually reigning with Jesus in heaven for about two thousand years so far. All the saints in heaven will reign there with Jesus until the time of Jesus' second coming.

2 Timothy 2:12 if we endure, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with him a thousand years.

The "a thousand years" is the time period between Jesus' resurrection and his second coming. "A thousand years" is symbolic, meaning many years.

All the saints in Abraham's bosom, a place in Hades, took part in the first resurrection when Jesus, after his death on the cross, re-opened heaven's gates and escorted them from Hades to heaven. They have no fear of the second death (condemnation to hell) because their spirits are already in heaven with their Savior, Jesus Christ.

 

[Jan001]

The only problem I have is in understanding the "covenant" that the Roman leadership will make to complete the 70th Week. Perhaps he is inadvertently committing to let the Law be practiced in the Week of Jesus' ministry? But then he suddenly decides to end temple worship, indirectly, by having Christ crucified?

I prefer the following translation for this passage:

Daniel 9: 24-27 Seventy weeks are shortened upon thy people, and upon thy holy city, that transgression may be finished, and sin may have an end, and iniquity may be abolished; and everlasting justice may be brought; and vision and prophecy may be fulfilled; and the saint of saints may be anointed.

25 Know thou therefore, and take notice: that from the going forth of the word, to build up Jerusalem again, unto Christ the prince, there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks: and the street shall be built again, and the walls in straitness of times.

26 And after sixty-two weeks Christ shall be slain: and the people that shall deny him shall not be his. And a people with their leader that shall come, shall destroy the city and the sanctuary: and the end thereof shall be waste, and after the end of the war the appointed desolation.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many, in one week: and in the half of the week the victim and the sacrifice shall fall: and there shall be in the temple the abomination of desolation: and the desolation shall continue even to the consummation, and to the end. (DRA)

I think verse 27, "he shall confirm the covenant with many," means Christ confirms his New Covenant for his many followers by his death on the cross.

The great harlot city of Jerusalem, which denied Christ as her Messiah, is the victim of his wrath, and so her temple sacrifice system ends when its temple is destroyed by the Roman armies—the abomination of desolation.

 

[Timtofly]

I agree. The 70th week followed immediately after the 69th week just as the 68th week followed immediately after the 67th week.

The 50th year did not immediately follow after the 49th year. That is why there is a break between the 7th week and the 8th week.

The 70th week did not immediately follow the 69th week. The Messiah was not even born immediately after the 69th week, and Jesus had to grow up before the 70th week could start. The 70th week started at the baptism of Jesus. The 70th week was cut off, when Jesus ascended and did not immediately return. The 70th week cannot continue until the Second Coming. Jesus is the 70th week while doing a work on the earth.

Only Jesus in person can finish the 70th week. No human nor human reasoning can just arbitrarily state what time frame the 70th week should entail.

Those who try to frame the 70 weeks into human time frames are no better than date setters of the Second Coming.

The promises in Daniel 9 were not given to a broad spectrum of humanity as the redeemed, even though they are recipients as a result. They were not even given specifically to the northern ten tribes even though they would be partakers as God restores the two halves back into a whole. Many are so caught up in the specific wording to make some specific proclamation they know exactly when a continuous exact 490 years stops and starts, without interruption, they have already tossed out or blatantly contradicted what Gabriel even said. That is just date setting the first coming, and just as wrong as date setting the Second Coming.

The exact wording even says that after 62 weeks, no?

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself."

This verse does not even say immediately after 69 weeks. The verse actually just states that after a period of 62 weeks, Messiah would be cut off.

Gabriel never defined a specific 70 weeks. Not sure why some feel the need to be more literal than Gabriel. You don't even have to accept my interpretation that Gabriel was implying Jesus is the 70th week. Obviously no one even agrees on who the Prince is in this chapter.

70 weeks are for the restoration of Israel. Until the restoration is complete, the 70 weeks are not complete. God is still restoring all of Adam's offspring not just those of one particular descendant, Jacob.

 

[eleos1954]

I agree. The 70th week followed immediately after the 69th week just as the 68th week followed immediately after the 67th week.


As you said, Daniel was told to seal up part of his prophecy until the time of the end.

Daniel 12:9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.

Jesus explained when this "time of the end" began:

Luke 16:16 “The law and the prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and every one enters it violently.

I agree that after the resurrection and ascension of Jesus, judgment began in heaven. All the saints in heaven, their spirits without their physical bodies, are reigning in heaven with Jesus right now. The righteous spirits who were waiting in Abraham's bosom until Jesus' death on the cross have been spiritually reigning with Jesus in heaven for about two thousand years so far. All the saints in heaven will reign there with Jesus until the time of Jesus' second coming.

2 Timothy 2:12 if we endure, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with him a thousand years.

The "a thousand years" is the time period between Jesus' resurrection and his second coming. "A thousand years" is symbolic, meaning many years.

All the saints in Abraham's bosom, a place in Hades, took part in the first resurrection when Jesus, after his death on the cross, re-opened heaven's gates and escorted them from Hades to heaven. They have no fear of the second death (condemnation to hell) because their spirits are already in heaven with their Savior, Jesus Christ.

All the saints in Abraham's bosom,

That's a pretty big bosom. lol

Genesis 2:19

"For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

So do you believe animals have disembodied "spirits"?

All turn into dust.

There is nothing immortal about us .... that don't happen until we are resurrected and that happens when Jesus returns ... not before.

1 Corinthians 15

51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable (immortal), and we will be changed. 53For the perishable (mortal) must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal (subject to death) with immortality.

The definition of mortal is being subject to death, new life (1st resurrection) happens at the last trump.

The whole bible is about life or death .... there is no "in between" and eternal life begins at the 1st resurrection.

Ezekiel 18:20-21 KJV​

The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

All have sinned.

Genesis 3:4 ESV​

But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.

"immortal" soul/spirit is perpetrating the same lie. It dismisses the first resurrection (dead in the grave becoming alive, for eternity)

Look at the whole of scripture about the matter .... it is overwhelming .... all the dead (the masses) rest in the grave (a few exceptions)

Mark 15:37

New King James Version
And Jesus cried out with a loud voice, and breathed His last.

Breath of life given to Him in His human form returned to God.

John 11:11-14 ESV​

After saying these things, he (Jesus) said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.” The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died.

Jesus himself says death a sleep.

I'm believing Jesus.

 

[Jan001]

The 50th year did not immediately follow after the 49th year. That is why there is a break between the 7th week and the 8th week.

The 70th week did not immediately follow the 69th week. The Messiah was not even born immediately after the 69th week, and Jesus had to grow up before the 70th week could start. The 70th week started at the baptism of Jesus. The 70th week was cut off, when Jesus ascended and did not immediately return. The 70th week cannot continue until the Second Coming. Jesus is the 70th week while doing a work on the earth.

Only Jesus in person can finish the 70th week. No human nor human reasoning can just arbitrarily state what time frame the 70th week should entail.

Those who try to frame the 70 weeks into human time frames are no better than date setters of the Second Coming.

The promises in Daniel 9 were not given to a broad spectrum of humanity as the redeemed, even though they are recipients as a result. They were not even given specifically to the northern ten tribes even though they would be partakers as God restores the two halves back into a whole. Many are so caught up in the specific wording to make some specific proclamation they know exactly when a continuous exact 490 years stops and starts, without interruption, they have already tossed out or blatantly contradicted what Gabriel even said. That is just date setting the first coming, and just as wrong as date setting the Second Coming.

The exact wording even says that after 62 weeks, no?

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself."

This verse does not even say immediately after 69 weeks. The verse actually just states that after a period of 62 weeks, Messiah would be cut off.

Gabriel never defined a specific 70 weeks. Not sure why some feel the need to be more literal than Gabriel. You don't even have to accept my interpretation that Gabriel was implying Jesus is the 70th week. Obviously no one even agrees on who the Prince is in this chapter.

70 weeks are for the restoration of Israel. Until the restoration is complete, the 70 weeks are not complete. God is still restoring all of Adam's offspring not just those of one particular descendant, Jacob.

Jesus did not have to grow up before the 70th week could begin.

Jesus was born at the beginning of the 70th week in 3-2 BC.

Jesus was killed, which means he was cut off, in the middle of the 70th week in 33 AD.

Jesus' power destroyed Jerusalem, using the Roman armies, at the end of the 70th week.

Daniel's prophecy was completely fulfilled by the end of 70 AD.

 

[Jan001]

That's a pretty big bosom. lol

Yes. it was.

Genesis 2:19

"For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Their physical bodies return to dust. Their spirits do not. Spirits are immortal. They cannot die.

Matthew 22:31-33 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” 33 And when the crowd heard it, they were astonished at his teaching.

So do you believe animals have disembodied "spirits"?

No.

All turn into dust.

There is nothing immortal about us .... that don't happen until we are resurrected and that happens when Jesus returns ... not before.

1 Corinthians 15

51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable (immortal), and we will be changed. 53For the perishable (mortal) must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal (subject to death) with immortality.

Sleep is a Semitic way of saying that a person has physically passed away. The physical body returns to dust.

When Jesus returns, the people who are alive on earth will not physically die. Their mortal physical bodies will be instantly changed into immortal physical bodies.

The definition of mortal is being subject to death, new life (1st resurrection) happens at the last trump.

The first ever immortal physical resurrection was Jesus' immortal physical resurrection. The first resurrection was 2000 years ago.

The whole bible is about life or death .... there is no "in between" and eternal life begins at the 1st resurrection.

After Jesus died, he opened the gates of heaven and escorted all the people in Abraham's bosom to heaven. Abraham and Lazarus were two of these people. These people all took part in Jesus' first resurrection. These spirits are ruling with Jesus in heaven presently. They have no fear of the second death because they are already in heaven, awaiting the resurrection of their physical bodies at the end of time.

Revelation 4:4 Round the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clad in white garments, with golden crowns upon their heads.

Revelation 11:16 And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God,

Ezekiel 18:20-21 KJV​

The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

All have sinned.

Ezekiel is speaking of spiritual death, which means condemnation to hell for eternity.

Genesis 3:4 ESV​

But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.

When Eve sinned, she did not physically die at that moment. She experienced spiritual condemnation and estrangement from God, which means that she was separated from God's fellowship and removed from the Garden of Eden.

"immortal" soul/spirit is perpetrating the same lie. It dismisses the first resurrection (dead in the grave becoming alive, for eternity)

Look at the whole of scripture about the matter .... it is overwhelming .... all the dead (the masses) rest in the grave (a few exceptions)

Mark 15:37

New King James Version
And Jesus cried out with a loud voice, and breathed His last.

Breath of life given to Him in His human form returned to God.

After Jesus' physical body breathed its last breath, his spirit went to Hades, and he preached to the spirits there.

1 Peter 4:6 For this is why the gospel was preached even to the dead, that though judged in the flesh like men, they might live in the spirit like God.

John 11:11-14 ESV​

After saying these things, he (Jesus) said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.” The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died.

Jesus himself says death a sleep.

I'm believing Jesus.

To fall asleep in Jesus' day meant one of two things: either to physically die or else to renew the physical body through rest.

Matthew 26:40 And he came to the disciples and found them sleeping; and he said to Peter, “So, could you not watch with me one hour?

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus did not have to grow up before the 70th week could begin.

Jesus was born at the beginning of the 70th week in 3-2 BC.

Jesus was killed, which means he was cut off, in the middle of the 70th week in 33 AD.

Jesus' power destroyed Jerusalem, using the Roman armies, at the end of the 70th week.

Daniel's prophecy was completely fulfilled by the end of 70 AD.

Well if you don't hold to literal time, then the 490 years could still be going as indefinite.

 

[eleos1954]

Yes. it was.

Their physical bodies return to dust. Their spirits do not. Spirits are immortal. They cannot die.

Matthew 22:31-33 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” 33 And when the crowd heard it, they were astonished at his teaching.


No.


Sleep is a Semitic way of saying that a person has physically passed away. The physical body returns to dust.

When Jesus returns, the people who are alive on earth will not physically die. Their mortal physical bodies will be instantly changed into immortal physical bodies.


The first ever immortal physical resurrection was Jesus' immortal physical resurrection. The first resurrection was 2000 years ago.


After Jesus died, he opened the gates of heaven and escorted all the people in Abraham's bosom to heaven. Abraham and Lazarus were two of these people. These people all took part in Jesus' first resurrection. These spirits are ruling with Jesus in heaven presently. They have no fear of the second death because they are already in heaven, awaiting the resurrection of their physical bodies at the end of time.

Revelation 4:4 Round the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clad in white garments, with golden crowns upon their heads.

Revelation 11:16 And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God,

Ezekiel is speaking of spiritual death, which means condemnation to hell for eternity.


When Eve sinned, she did not physically die at that moment. She experienced spiritual condemnation and estrangement from God, which means that she was separated from God's fellowship and removed from the Garden of Eden.


After Jesus' physical body breathed its last breath, his spirit went to Hades, and he preached to the spirits there.

1 Peter 4:6 For this is why the gospel was preached even to the dead, that though judged in the flesh like men, they might live in the spirit like God.



To fall asleep in Jesus' day meant one of two things: either to physically die or else to renew the physical body through rest.

Matthew 26:40 And he came to the disciples and found them sleeping; and he said to Peter, “So, could you not watch with me one hour?

1 Timothy 6:16

Amplified Bible
He alone possesses immortality [absolute exemption from death] and lives in unapproachable light, whom no man has ever seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal power and dominion! Amen.

If "something" of us goes somewhere for what purpose is the resurrection?

We get new bodies

For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it's not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life.

Lazarus when he died died did he go to heaven (or "Abrahams bosom or wherever") and then Jesus brought him back from wherever? Did Lazarus have a mortal body or a immortal body?

Jesus calls death a sleep because one day all will be resurrected (from the grave) some to eternal life .... some to eternal death.

Psalms 13​

[1] How long wilt thou forget me, O LORD? for ever? how long wilt thou hide thy face from me?
[2] How long shall I take counsel in my soul, having sorrow in my heart daily? how long shall mine enemy be exalted over me?
[3] Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;
[4] Lest mine enemy say, I have prevailed against him; and those that trouble me rejoice when I am moved.
[5] But I have trusted in thy mercy; my heart shall rejoice in thy salvation.
[6] I will sing unto the LORD, because he hath dealt bountifully with me.

1 Corinthians 15

51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

We don't become immortal until we are awakened (changed) from our sleep in the grave at that happens at the last trump, not before

1. Deuteronomy 31:16: “The Lord said to Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers.”
2. II Samuel 7:12: “When thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers.""
3. I Kings 1:21: “When my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers.”
4. I Kings 2:10: “David slept with his fathers.”
5. I Kings 11:21: “David slept with his fathers.”
6. I Kings 11:43: “Solomon slept with his fathers.”
7. I Kings 14:20: “Jeroboam...slept with his fathers.”
8. I Kings 14:31: “Rehoboam slept with his fathers.”
9. I Kings 15:8: “Abijam slept with his fathers.”
10. I Kings 15:24: “Asa slept with his fathers.”
11. I Kings 16:6: “Baasha slept with his fathers.”
12. I Kings 16:28: “Omri slept with his fathers.”
13. I Kings 22:40: “Ahab slept with his fathers.”
14. I Kings 22:50: “Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers.”
15. II Kings 8:24: “Joram slept with his fathers”
16. II Kings 10:35: “Jehu slept with his fathers”
17. II Kings 13:9: “Jehoahaz slept with his fathers”
18. II Kings 13:13: “Joash slept with his fathers”
19. II Kings 14:16: “Jehoash slept with his fathers”
20. II Kings 14:22: “The king slept with his fathers”
21. II Kings 14:29: “Jeroboam slept with his fathers”
22. II Kings 15:7: “Azariah slept with his fathers”
23. II Kings 15:22: “Menahem slept with his fathers”
24. II Kings 15:38: “Jotham slept with his fathers”
25. II Kings 16:20: “Ahaz slept with his fathers”
26. II Kings 20:21: “Hezekiah slept with his fathers”
27. II Kings 21: 18: “Manasseh slept with his fathers”
28. II Kings 24:6: “Jehoiakim slept with his fathers”
29. II Chron. 9:31: “Solomon slept with his fathers”
30. II Chron. 12:16: “Rehoaboam slept with his fathers”
31. II Chron. 14:1: “Abijah slept with his fathers”
32. II Chron. 16:13: “Asa slept with his fathers”
33. II Chron. 21:1: “Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers”
34. II Chron. 26:2: “The king slept with his fathers”
35. II Chron. 26:23: “Uzziah slept with his fathers”
36. II Chron. 27:9: “Jotham slept with his fathers”
37. II Chron. 28:27: “Ahaz slept with his fathers”
38. II Chron. 32:33: “Hezekiah slept with his fathers”
39. II Chron. 33:20: “Manasseh slept with his fathers”
    Whether a good king or a bad king, none of these kings are in heaven (or in a burning place); all lie asleep in their graves awaiting the resurrection of the dead.
    
    In Job, believed to be the oldest book in the Bible, death is again referred to as sleep:
40. Job 7:21: “Now shall I sleep in the dust”
41. Job 14:12: “They shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep”
    
    In the Psalms, death is a sleep:
42. Psalm 13:3: “Lest I sleep the sleep of death”
43. Psalm 90:5: “Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep”
    
    Daniel promises a resurrection of the sleeping dead:
44. Daniel 12:2: “Many of they that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake”
    
    Jesus described death as “sleep”:
45. Matthew 9:24: “The maid is not dead but sleepeth.”
46. Mark 5:39: “The damsel is not dead but sleepeth”
47. Luke 8:52: “She is not dead but sleepeth”
48. John 11:11: “Our friend Lazarus sleepeth”
    
    At Jesus’ crucifixion:
49. Matthew 27:52: “Many bodies of the saints which slept arose”
    
    Luke reiterates I Kings:
50. Acts 13:36: “David...fell asleep, and was laid unto his fathers”
    
    Paul describes death as sleep:
51. I Cor. 15:20: “Christ is risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that sleep”
52. I Cor. 15:51: “We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed”
53. I Thess 4:13: “I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope”
54. I Thess. 4:14: “If we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus”

 

[Douggg]

Jesus arrived in Jerusalem, hailed as the messiah King of Israel in John 12:12-15. 4 days later was cutoff, crucified.

The 70th week week remains unfulfilled. And is the 7 years in Ezekiel 39, following the Gog/Magog event.

The prince that shall come will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 year cycle required by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-10.

Gabriel referred to the vision about the little horn person upon first appearing to Daniel. That vision spans 2300 days. And will fit within the 7 years following Gog/Magog.

Ezekiel 39 breakdown:

In Ezekiel 39, the destruction of Gog's army verses 1-6
In Ezekiel 39, then followed by 7 years verses 7-10 (the 70th week)
In Ezekiel 39, then the Armageddon event verses 17-20
In Ezekiel 39, then Jesus's return to this earth verses 21-29

 

[Jan001]

Well if you don't hold to literal time, then the 490 years could still be going as indefinite.

It was a definite 490 years. 70 x 7 = 490.

 

[Jan001]

1 Timothy 6:16

Amplified Bible
He alone possesses immortality [absolute exemption from death] and lives in unapproachable light, whom no man has ever seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal power and dominion! Amen.

If "something" of us goes somewhere for what purpose is the resurrection?

We get new bodies

For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it's not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life.

Lazarus when he died died did he go to heaven (or "Abrahams bosom or wherever") and then Jesus brought him back from wherever? Did Lazarus have a mortal body or a immortal body?

Jesus calls death a sleep because one day all will be resurrected (from the grave) some to eternal life .... some to eternal death.

Psalms 13​

[1] How long wilt thou forget me, O LORD? for ever? how long wilt thou hide thy face from me?
[2] How long shall I take counsel in my soul, having sorrow in my heart daily? how long shall mine enemy be exalted over me?
[3] Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;
[4] Lest mine enemy say, I have prevailed against him; and those that trouble me rejoice when I am moved.
[5] But I have trusted in thy mercy; my heart shall rejoice in thy salvation.
[6] I will sing unto the LORD, because he hath dealt bountifully with me.

1 Corinthians 15

51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

We don't become immortal until we are awakened (changed) from our sleep in the grave at that happens at the last trump, not before

1. Deuteronomy 31:16: “The Lord said to Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers.”
2. II Samuel 7:12: “When thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers.""
3. I Kings 1:21: “When my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers.”
4. I Kings 2:10: “David slept with his fathers.”
5. I Kings 11:21: “David slept with his fathers.”
6. I Kings 11:43: “Solomon slept with his fathers.”
7. I Kings 14:20: “Jeroboam...slept with his fathers.”
8. I Kings 14:31: “Rehoboam slept with his fathers.”
9. I Kings 15:8: “Abijam slept with his fathers.”
10. I Kings 15:24: “Asa slept with his fathers.”
11. I Kings 16:6: “Baasha slept with his fathers.”
12. I Kings 16:28: “Omri slept with his fathers.”
13. I Kings 22:40: “Ahab slept with his fathers.”
14. I Kings 22:50: “Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers.”
15. II Kings 8:24: “Joram slept with his fathers”
16. II Kings 10:35: “Jehu slept with his fathers”
17. II Kings 13:9: “Jehoahaz slept with his fathers”
18. II Kings 13:13: “Joash slept with his fathers”
19. II Kings 14:16: “Jehoash slept with his fathers”
20. II Kings 14:22: “The king slept with his fathers”
21. II Kings 14:29: “Jeroboam slept with his fathers”
22. II Kings 15:7: “Azariah slept with his fathers”
23. II Kings 15:22: “Menahem slept with his fathers”
24. II Kings 15:38: “Jotham slept with his fathers”
25. II Kings 16:20: “Ahaz slept with his fathers”
26. II Kings 20:21: “Hezekiah slept with his fathers”
27. II Kings 21: 18: “Manasseh slept with his fathers”
28. II Kings 24:6: “Jehoiakim slept with his fathers”
29. II Chron. 9:31: “Solomon slept with his fathers”
30. II Chron. 12:16: “Rehoaboam slept with his fathers”
31. II Chron. 14:1: “Abijah slept with his fathers”
32. II Chron. 16:13: “Asa slept with his fathers”
33. II Chron. 21:1: “Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers”
34. II Chron. 26:2: “The king slept with his fathers”
35. II Chron. 26:23: “Uzziah slept with his fathers”
36. II Chron. 27:9: “Jotham slept with his fathers”
37. II Chron. 28:27: “Ahaz slept with his fathers”
38. II Chron. 32:33: “Hezekiah slept with his fathers”
39. II Chron. 33:20: “Manasseh slept with his fathers”
    Whether a good king or a bad king, none of these kings are in heaven (or in a burning place); all lie asleep in their graves awaiting the resurrection of the dead.
    
    In Job, believed to be the oldest book in the Bible, death is again referred to as sleep:
40. Job 7:21: “Now shall I sleep in the dust”
41. Job 14:12: “They shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep”
    
    In the Psalms, death is a sleep:
42. Psalm 13:3: “Lest I sleep the sleep of death”
43. Psalm 90:5: “Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep”
    
    Daniel promises a resurrection of the sleeping dead:
44. Daniel 12:2: “Many of they that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake”
    
    Jesus described death as “sleep”:
45. Matthew 9:24: “The maid is not dead but sleepeth.”
46. Mark 5:39: “The damsel is not dead but sleepeth”
47. Luke 8:52: “She is not dead but sleepeth”
48. John 11:11: “Our friend Lazarus sleepeth”
    
    At Jesus’ crucifixion:
49. Matthew 27:52: “Many bodies of the saints which slept arose”
    
    Luke reiterates I Kings:
50. Acts 13:36: “David...fell asleep, and was laid unto his fathers”
    
    Paul describes death as sleep:
51. I Cor. 15:20: “Christ is risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that sleep”
52. I Cor. 15:51: “We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed”
53. I Thess 4:13: “I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope”
54. I Thess. 4:14: “If we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus”

The bodies of Abraham, the rich man, and Lazarus were dead and buried, but their spirits were alive and conscious.
On the day of the resurrection of their dead bodies at the end of time, these newly living, resurrected bodies will re-join with their living, conscious spirits.

The Rich Man and Lazarus​

Luke 16:19-31 “There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz′arus, full of sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz′arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.’”

 

[eleos1954]

The bodies of Abraham, the rich man, and Lazarus were dead and buried, but their spirits were alive and conscious.
On the day of the resurrection of their dead bodies at the end of time, these newly living, resurrected bodies will re-join with their living, conscious spirits.

The Rich Man and Lazarus​

Luke 16:19-31 “There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz′arus, full of sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz′arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.’”

It's a parable

The rich man asks Abraham the following in verse 24: “Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.” If this scene is truly literal, the one drop of water would evaporate before it could even reach the rich man and there would be no point of even making this request.

Furthermore, if this parable is literal, do disembodied souls have real bodies? Do they have literal fingers and tongues? Could a soul even transport a drop of water to the rich man? As we look at this, it is clear that this parable is an allegory and figurative in nature.

It can only be a parable.

 

[Jan001]

It's a parable

The rich man asks Abraham the following in verse 24: “Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.” If this scene is truly literal, the one drop of water would evaporate before it could even reach the rich man and there would be no point of even making this request.

Furthermore, if this parable is literal, do disembodied souls have real bodies? Do they have literal fingers and tongues? Could a soul even transport a drop of water to the rich man? As we look at this, it is clear that this parable is an allegory and figurative in nature.

It can only be a parable.

Did Jesus say that this was a parable? No, he did not.

Perhaps some of Jesus' listeners actually saw Lazarus lying at the gate of the rich man's property. Otherwise, why would Jesus specifically name him? Everyone knew who Abraham was. Jesus did not mention the rich man's name. I think it is because Jesus states in scripture that he does not know, and he never knew those who are condemned. Matthew 7:22-24, Luke 13:25-27

Jesus knows his own sheep and he calls them by name.

John 10:3 To him the gatekeeper opens; the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

Where do you think Judas went after he committed suicide? Scripture states that he went to his own place.

Acts 1:25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place.” Matthew 26:24

I think a person's spirit feels pain in hell. Many people who have a NDE attest to witnessing this when they were shown hell.

 

[eleos1954]

Did Jesus say that this was a parable? No, he did not.

Perhaps some of Jesus' listeners actually saw Lazarus lying at the gate of the rich man's property. Otherwise, why would Jesus specifically name him? Everyone knew who Abraham was. Jesus did not mention the rich man's name. I think it is because Jesus states in scripture that he does not know, and he never knew those who are condemned. Matthew 7:22-24, Luke 13:25-27

Jesus knows his own sheep and he calls them by name.

John 10:3 To him the gatekeeper opens; the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

Where do you think Judas went after he committed suicide? Scripture states that he went to his own place.

Acts 1:25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place.” Matthew 26:24

I think a person's spirit feels pain in hell. Many people who have a NDE attest to witnessing this when they were shown hell.

Judas went to the grave where all go at earthly death ... this is everyone's place they go to ... and wait to be resurrected.


par·a·ble
/ˈperəb(ə)l/
noun
a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson

Look .. it's about being mortal (subject to death) or being immortal (not subject to death)

The bible not only teaches we are subject to death (mortal) but actually subject to the possibility of 2 deaths.

We are either mortal or immortal we can't be both at the same time ... they are mutually exclusive.

It makes perfect logical and biblical sense that all sleep in the grave ... because one day all will be resurrected (awakened) from that dormant state .... some to eternal life and later those to eternal condemnation

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 ESV​

In flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction (a finality), away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

 

[Jan001]

Judas went to the grave where all go at earthly death ... this is everyone's place they go to ... and wait to be resurrected.


par·a·ble
/ˈperəb(ə)l/
noun
a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson

Look .. it's about being mortal (subject to death) or being immortal (not subject to death)

The bible not only teaches we are subject to death (mortal) but actually subject to the possibility of 2 deaths.

We are either mortal or immortal we can't be both at the same time ... they are mutually exclusive.

It makes perfect logical and biblical sense that all sleep in the grave ... because one day all will be resurrected (awakened) from that dormant state .... some to eternal life and later those to eternal condemnation

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 ESV​

In flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction (a finality), away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Spirits cannot literally die. Spirits cannot be literally destroyed into nothingness. Spirits cannot literally sleep. Spirits are not made of matter—they do not take up space like bodies do.

Physical bodies do die. Physical bodies do sleep. Physical bodies rejuvenate through restful unconsciousness. Physical bodies are made of matter and they do take up space.

If it is said that a spirit dies, it means that it is condemned to eternal hellfire.

Mark 9:47-48 And if your eye causes you to stumble, tear it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and to be thrown into hell, 48 where their worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched.

Spiritual death—condemnation in eternal hellfire:

Ezekiel 33:14-16 Again, though I say to the wicked, “You shall surely die,” yet if they turn from their sin and do what is lawful and right— 15 if the wicked restore the pledge, give back what they have taken by robbery, and walk in the statutes of life, committing no iniquity—they shall surely live, they shall not die. 16 None of the sins that they have committed shall be remembered against them; they have done what is lawful and right, they shall surely live.

 

[Timtofly]

It was a definite 490 years. 70 x 7 = 490.

It was also a definite 49 years, and 434 years. Not just 490 years.

 

[Jan001]

It was also a definite 49 years, and 434 years. Not just 490 years.