That great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.

[parousia70]

Never heard of the twelve tribes of Israel?

Why am I not surprised?

Oh I know about the twelve tribes of Israel... I just never heard the angle that there will be only 13 people that make up the "Israel that will be saved in that day"

that is a new one on me.

I know when pressed, most folks can't give a straight answer on who makes up their view of Israel... does it include Jewish converts for example? or only genetic Jews and how pure do the genetics need to be? FULL Jew, 1/2 Jew... is 1/4 OK? or is that too little?

If a Christian converts to Modern day Judaism, is that person included in "all Israel" that shall be saved in that day? or is he somehow excluded? And what of the non Jewish Citizens of Modern Day Israel?
Since you claim modern day Israel is the reconstitution of the pre desolation Hebrew Theocracy, and Modern Day Israel has non Jewish FULL citizens of their secular Democracy, do they count as part of "all Israel" that will be saved in that day... oh wait... I guess not since you seem to believe "all Israel" is only 13 people who will be saved in that day....

 

[parousia70]

Originally Posted by parousia70

The Fulness of the gentiles came in back in the 1st century Old Timer.
​

When was that specifically?

I'm so glad you asked!

By comparing scripture with scripture we clearly see that "fullness" does not equate with "full number", but rather the fullness of Gods grace:

John 1:16
And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

(This is especially instructive for us in that "fulness" is considered here to the the opposite of "fall", and in no way can be construed as a numeric value.)

Romans 15:29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.

Ephesians 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

The list goes on........

The notion of fulness in the NT carries the idea of totality of Gods blessings and grace, and not a certain number.

The Gentiles are already FULL PARTAKERS of the grace of God.
Proving The "Fulness of the gentiles" came in 2000 years ago.

 

[parousia70]

Originally Posted by parousia70


Yep, a time period of 42 months. (Revelation 11:2,13:5)


Then after that.. when the seventh Angel sounds.. the kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of our God and of his Christ.

Wait... so your contention is that the "times of the gentiles" has not yet begun?

 

[Old Timer]

Oh I know about the twelve tribes of Israel... I just never heard the angle that there will be only 13 people that make up the "Israel that will be saved in that day"

that is a new one on me.

Probably because you're the only one who has come up with that nonsense.. Like everything else you say.

I know when pressed, most folks can't give a straight answer on who makes up their view of Israel... does it include Jewish converts for example? or only genetic Jews and how pure do the genetics need to be? FULL Jew, 1/2 Jew... is 1/4 OK? or is that too little?

If a Christian converts to Modern day Judaism, is that person included in "all Israel" that shall be saved in that day? or is he somehow excluded? And what of the non Jewish Citizens of Modern Day Israel?
Since you claim modern day Israel is the reconstitution of the pre desolation Hebrew Theocracy, and Modern Day Israel has non Jewish FULL citizens of their secular Democracy, do they count as part of "all Israel" that will be saved in that day... oh wait... I guess not since you seem to believe "all Israel" is only 13 people who will be saved in that day....

Probably because most folks could care less what the scriptures actually do say.

 

[Old Timer]

I'm so glad you asked!

By comparing scripture with scripture we clearly see that "fullness" does not equate with "full number", but rather the fullness of Gods grace:

John 1:16
And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

(This is especially instructive for us in that "fulness" is considered here to the the opposite of "fall", and in no way can be construed as a numeric value.)

Romans 15:29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.

Ephesians 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

The list goes on........

The notion of fulness in the NT carries the idea of totality of Gods blessings and grace, and not a certain number.

The Gentiles are already FULL PARTAKERS of the grace of God.
Proving The "Fulness of the gentiles" came in 2000 years ago.

Hey, if equating the fullness of grace to the fullness of Gentiles proves it for you, then so be it.

Obviously the context of God's word stands and you're simply wise in your own conceit.

 

[lecoop]

It's Israel - city Jerusalem where priests wore robes the color mentioned

Hurah! This guy has got it RIGHT!

For those that have HISTORY on their mind, it will be Jerusalem ONLY during the time that the Beast will make Jerusalem his home, the 42 months if His FUTURE authority. He will deceived the entire world with lying signs and wonders FROM JERUSALEM, making Jerusalem the "Great Wh**e Babylon.

LAMAD

 

[parousia70]

Hey, if equating the fullness of grace to the fullness of Gentiles proves it for you, then so be it.
.

When Scripture equates it, We are to accept it.

 

[parousia70]

Probably because you're the only one who has come up with that nonsense..

You are the one that came up with it, I'm merely challenging you to account for it.

 

[Old Timer]

When Scripture equates it, We are to accept it.

Then keep livin (if you can call it that) in the past..

 

[Old Timer]

You are the one that came up with it, I'm merely challenging you to account for it.

The scriptures teach us that Israel is Jacob, and that his twelve sons are the twelve tribes of Israel.

If you'd like to pretend that I believe this means that 13 people will be saved, then go right ahead.

 

[parousia70]

The scriptures teach us that Israel is Jacob, and that his twelve sons are the twelve tribes of Israel.

If you'd like to pretend that I believe this means that 13 people will be saved, then go right ahead.

Ok, maybe now we can get somewhere.... does this include converts?

 

[Old Timer]

Ok, maybe now we can get somewhere.... does this include converts?

This includes simple scriptural facts, perhaps something you may have difficulty with.

 

[parousia70]

This includes simple scriptural facts, perhaps something you may have difficulty with.

I'm just asking for your opinion, no need to get snippy.... feel free to back it with scripture if you like, but in your opinion will the "ALL Israel that will be saved in that day" include converts to Judaism or only the genetic 12 tribes?

 

[Old Timer]

I'm just asking for your opinion, no need to get snippy...

And I'm done giving it to those who can't see past AD70 and the destruction of Jerusalem.

So carry on with your thread about the past.

 

[parousia70]

And I'm done giving it

I seriously doubt that!

So carry on with your thread about the past.

No one is forcing you to continue commenting, yet you continue......

 

[shturt678s]

Rev.17:18, "And the woman whom thou didst see is the city, the great one," signifies by the means of the harlot's seduction today for sure as this is brought out in the first part of the chapter.

Old Jack

 

[Bible2]

parousia70 said in post 82:

By comparing scripture with scripture we clearly see that "fullness" does not equate with "full number", but rather the fullness of Gods grace:

John 1:16
And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

(This is especially instructive for us in that "fulness" is considered here to the the opposite of "fall", and in no way can be construed as a numeric value.)

Romans 11:25 doesn't have to say "until the fulness (pleroma) of the number of the Gentiles be come in", in order to mean that, just as, for example, Revelation 6:11 doesn't have to say "until the number of their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled (pleroo)", in order to mean that.

In Romans 11:25 the Gentiles are genetic Gentiles, the people addressed throughout Romans 11:13-31, who aren't genetic Jews like Paul (Romans 11:1,14). Both individual genetic Jewish believers (natural branches) and individual genetic Gentile believers (engrafted wild branches) are branches in the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24). For when Gentiles become believers they "come in" (Romans 11:25) to be part of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). The fruit of each individual branch would be the good works of each individual (Colossians 1:10). It's the genetic Jews who are "blind in part", meaning some of them are spiritually blind while others aren't (Romans 11:7-10). For "blindness in part is happened to Israel" (Romans 11:25) in its genetic sense (Romans 11:1,14), that is, genetic Jews (Acts 22:3). Also, in Romans 11:25-26, "Israel" includes elect genetic Jews who aren't yet believers (Romans 11:28) but will become believers eventually (Romans 11:26).

When Paul says "until the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:26) immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30), just as Luke 21:24 shows that "the times of the Gentiles" won't be "fulfilled (pleroo)" until the completion of the treading down of Jerusalem during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18) during the 2nd half of the tribulation.

Immediately after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-30), all the still-living unsaved elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church, for there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

 

[shturt678s]

Romans 11:25 doesn't have to say "until the fulness (pleroma) of the number of the Gentiles be come in", in order to mean that, just as, for example, Revelation 6:11 doesn't have to say "until the number of their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled (pleroo)", in order to mean that.

In Romans 11:25 the Gentiles are genetic Gentiles, the people addressed throughout Romans 11:13-31, who aren't genetic Jews like Paul (Romans 11:1,14). Both individual genetic Jewish believers (natural branches) and individual genetic Gentile believers (engrafted wild branches) are branches in the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24). For when Gentiles become believers they "come in" (Romans 11:25) to be part of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). The fruit of each individual branch would be the good works of each individual (Colossians 1:10). It's the genetic Jews who are "blind in part", meaning some of them are spiritually blind while others aren't (Romans 11:7-10). For "blindness in part is happened to Israel" (Romans 11:25) in its genetic sense (Romans 11:1,14), that is, genetic Jews (Acts 22:3). Also, in Romans 11:25-26, "Israel" includes elect genetic Jews who aren't yet believers (Romans 11:28) but will become believers eventually (Romans 11:26).

When Paul says "until the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:26) immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30), just as Luke 21:24 shows that "the times of the Gentiles" won't be "fulfilled (pleroo)" until the completion of the treading down of Jerusalem during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18) during the 2nd half of the tribulation.

Immediately after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-30), all the still-living unsaved elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14).

Rom.11:25, "...for Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles shall come in,.... noting the comma, ie, not a period (A.V.), and also noting "Israel" in v.25 refers to the physical Israel as a nation.

The fulness of the Gentiles = again the number of Gentile believers, all the sheep "not of this fold," which Jesus will also bring in (Jn.10:16).

My point is the "tribulation" are all the tribulations combined throughout the N.T. Rom.11:26 = spiritual Israel, ie, only a remnant of the non-petrified Jews.

And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church, for there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

Old Jack