SSPX

[Rhamiel]

some of the SSPX have returned to full union with Rome

the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter (FSSP)
as far as I am aware, they only have Latin Mass
one of my dear friends attends one of their parishes

not sure if any of you remember Monica? she was raised a nominal Eastern Orthodox in a very secular household, became an Evangelical in High School, and then while at University became interested in the Roman Catholic Church (if I am not mistaken, her first serious interactions with Catholics were here in OBOB)
anyways, I think she attends an FSSP parish

what is it with Traditionalists and abbreviations?
SSPX
SSPV
FFSP
this is looking like alphabet soup

 

[MikeK]

. My experience with SSPXers is similar to my experience with people who hold to fringy left or right wing political beliefs or join street gangs - they are generally disaffected and looking for someone to blame as well as a sense of tribe.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

Given the message of the Novus Ordo, it's not surprising in the least. Naturally, one would "blame" the wellspring or perceived cause of spiritual harm and apostasy. A source of harm from which, many are obliged to flee and are not wont toward looking back. Many who don't flee initially later do so because of some unorthodox or antiCatholic deed or policy the Novus Ordo does to force them out for their own souls' sake. Agree or not: that's how things are.

 

[Colin]

that's how things are.

Things are not like that on my planet .

 

[MikeK]

Things are not like that on my planet .

Or mine. While I prefer the Latin Mass, many of the finest Catholics I know love the Novus Ordo, and it is not forcing anyone out.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Things usually escalate when changes occur. [History is proof of that]
So long as the Mass is the same in any language - it's the same. Period.

Is it Donaticism to suggest 'things' [such as sin et al] to cause an inability to consecrate the Eucharist?
The Eucharist is the focus. The hearts of all is the point.
If someone prefers vernacular - and it brings them closer to the Lord - by understanding the Mass - then i trust very much God knows better than man - whom He is reaching out to and why.

I do tire of the judgment calls.

The Roman Church has the ability to reach out to ppl in their language - as the East does with the different 'names' of the Churches. Everyone has their language - so why should the West be ignorant to the needs of the ppl over simple semantics.
You love the Latin Mass - good. I do too.
You love the Novus Ordo? Good, i do too.

Because in every Mass the Eucharist - Our Lord - is there.

 

[Colin]

I attended thousands of Tridentine Masses , that is before the Liturgy was reformed , and that started in England on the first Sunday of Advent 1966 when it was allowed for the Eucharist to be celebrated in English .

Hundreds of those Tridentine Masses I attended was in my role as an altar server , so I had a close up experience of them .

Believe me , there was need for reform .

Many , far too many , of those Masses I attended were celebrated in a way that one would not call reverent . They were shameful .

 

[Rhamiel]

Or mine. While I prefer the Latin Mass, many of the finest Catholics I know love the Novus Ordo, and it is not forcing anyone out.

I think the debate between Latin Mass or Mass in the vernacular is almost a smokescreen
it hides the real problems
and is an over simplification of the divide

OH ok,
I have heard this a few times before
"well if I lived at the time of the Reformation, I probably would have been a Protestant"
or something like that being said, as a way of emphasizing the corruption in the Church and also showing that the original Reformers were not all that bad

I think this is how many in the SSPX kind of see it, though they would NEVER compare themselves to Protestant Reformers
both view the times they live in as ones of deep corruption
both view themselves as trying to regain something that was lost

 

[Open Heart]

Given the message of the Novus Ordo

The message of Novos Ordo? That people do better when they understand what is being spoken to them? True. After all, that's why the Mass was first switched from Greek to Latin.

 

[thecolorsblend]

I was confirmed through the FSSP. My priest has a fairly low view of the SSPX. That's his right. I've interacted with SSPX folks over the years and a lot of them seem pretty solid. But others are total yahoos. Some are even openly sedevacantist.

The SSPX leaders have a point on some things though. It's amazing what some bishops, cardinals, Catholic politicians and others have gotten away with. The laity are always warned to not support those statements or vote for certain types of politicians ("your souls are at stake!") but the people making those statements or running for those offices never even get so much as a slap on the wrist. Of course, this is no argument for joining up with the SSPX; the Church just needs to enforce her own rules in a more consistent manner.

 

[Rhamiel]

colorsblend makes a good point

I do not see the SSPX as being so much about the Latin Mass, that is almost more symbolic then anything else
(though it is important)
the issue seems to be more over modernism and liberalism?

 

[Virgil the Roman]

It's never been about that Latin; that's a red herring. I'd take the Tridentine mass in English if I could. It's been about radical, un-Catholic changes in liturgy, sacraments, and teaching.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Vatican II requires the reader to already have a solid knowledge of the dogmatic teachings that came before it and that one already know the differences in the hierarchy of teachings. Unfortunately, this made for a perfect storm when combined with society's Drug/Sexual Revolution and bad catechesis.

 

[Open Heart]

I do not see the SSPX as being so much about the Latin Mass, that is almost more symbolic then anything else
(though it is important)
the issue seems to be more over modernism and liberalism?

I think it has mostly to do with a complete rejection of Vatican 2.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

I hope that the Vatican changes the liturgy of Novus Ordo back to a more traditional style.

The switch from Latin in and of itself isn't to big of a deal IMHO, I mean come on it makes perfect sense to alter the language of the mass to one people understand.

The liturgical changes of the Novus Ordo that I find most peculiar is the changing of the priests position from facing God to facing the congregation and the eucharistic part.
I think the reverence of the pre V2 mass is greater than today's praxis.
To kneel while receiving the host is an act of humility that IMO reflect how our entire relationship with Christ should be like.

Of course properly celebrated Novus Ordo masses are reverent, but the changes that I mentioned makes more room for liturgical abuses I think.

While the Latin mass era is over and rightly so I hope to see some of the EF liturgical customs reinstated.

Or maybe I'm just a hopeless nostalgic...

 

[WarriorAngel]

It's never been about that Latin; that's a red herring. I'd take the Tridentine mass in English if I could. It's been about radical, un-Catholic changes in liturgy, sacraments, and teaching.

I would take the Tridentine in English too...as of yet my deacon said it cannot be done.
I dont understand why.
But i believe in going back to the semantics of the earlier Masses...
Like the bells, the mouth reception of the Host, altar rails etc.

Although i disagree with those changes - i pray for them to return instead of dismissing the Mass as lacking the truth.

With prayer, faithfulness, and belief - anything is possible.
Just as i wouldnt throw my child out with the bath water - i wouldnt remove myself from the one place God remains.

If it is meant to turn around - it will. God is patient with men - He just is. [Thankfully] and He turns the ship slowly - via the Spirit - but He does it every single time so long as the faithful petition Him thru remaining obedient to His Church and not outside of it.

 

[WarriorAngel]

BTW - the Pope never instructed the changes we see today.
He only wanted the vernacular.
Each region 'translated' the changes as they felt it meant to them.

So Vll wasnt the culprit.

 

[Open Heart]

I hope that the Vatican changes the liturgy of Novus Ordo back to a more traditional style.

The switch from Latin in and of itself isn't to big of a deal IMHO, I mean come on it makes perfect sense to alter the language of the mass to one people understand.

The liturgical changes of the Novus Ordo that I find most peculiar is the changing of the priests position from facing God to facing the congregation and the eucharistic part.
I think the reverence of the pre V2 mass is greater than today's praxis.
To kneel while receiving the host is an act of humility that IMO reflect how our entire relationship with Christ should be like.

Of course properly celebrated Novus Ordo masses are reverent, but the changes that I mentioned makes more room for liturgical abuses I think.

While the Latin mass era is over and rightly so I hope to see some of the EF liturgical customs reinstated.

Or maybe I'm just a hopeless nostalgic...

You can always still attend a latin mass.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

You can always still attend a latin mass.

So they say, but no pope except perhaps Benedict 16 have tried to up the availability of the EF which sadly is non existing in many areas.

There isn't celebrated one single mass in the EF in Norway during the liturgical year (sometimes one or two, buy you catch my drift I guess?) So nope, if I where to attend the Latin mass it would have to be a monthly SSPX mass held in Oslo which I don't have any interest in because I don't care for their sectarian nature and lack of submission to the Papal authority.

But as I said I don't care for Latin in particular either so Latin mass is bit of a swing and a miss.

EF held in vernicular is what I dream of

 

[WarriorAngel]

S

EF held in vernicular is what I dream of

Pray - i do.