SSPX

[justlookinla]

Generally, among the Catholic laity, what is the view of the SSPX? Are they even aware of the organization, if so do they really care it exists?

 

[Fish and Bread]

I don't think there's much awareness of their existence among the average American Catholics. Those who are "plugged in" enough to post to a forum like this or attend a religious college or seminary classes or something mostly would consider them schismatic and not Catholics in the sense of being in communion with Rome (Albeit retaining valid Apostolic Succession).

Their profile is highest in France, where they have the highest mass attendance relative to masses in communion with Rome in that country relative to any other country, and in France they are deeply associated with very radical right wing politics and monarchism (i.e. They want their country ruled by a King ala Louis XIV), and still fringy and small relative to the overall French population (albeit not small relative to mass going Catholics in general from week to week). Globally, they have a very anti-semetic reputation, and had a bishop who was put on trial in one European country as a Holocaust denier.

Many of their writings online seem to reflect a great sense of a paranoia and anger, and a thin grasp on reality in the sense of understanding facts about the history of the Church (Though they study it and can expound on it at length, what they say about it just doesn't make much sense). They have a very distorted view of how things happened. Right from their founder, they also seem to waffle from sentence to sentence or paragraph to paragraph at times in terms of how much they accept current Popes. They'll say they are perfectly loyal and they have a picture of the Pope in the back of all their chapels and then within sentences be saying the Pope is a heretic and the smoke of Satan is in the Church and they aren't sure if he is really the Pope anyway, though he probably is, but not really. There is a confusion there among them, I sense. A sort of cognitive dissonance where they feel they can't be Catholic without the Pope, but they don't really think the Pope is Catholic- and it seems to be causing them a lot of distress and instability of thought.

Obviously, this doesn't apply to everyone who associates with them or goes to their masses. But in general, I really would encourage people to stay away from that rabbit hole. I know even very conservative Catholics who are extremely wary of this crowd. One person went to a small Catholic college undergrad where 10% of the students attended SSPX masses off-campus and she said they tended to have wide eyed looks and go on long rants defending the crusades, and generally were not really stable sort of people, and could get a little scary. And she is a straight ticket Republican voter who tends to have a Benediction view of the church. She's not a liberal Democrat like me.

I'm going to be my honest and speak in language I don't usually use and say I sense a certain evil and darkness in the SSPX and associated movements. They just really creep me out for reasons I have trouble articulating. It's like the way you might want to avoid a haunted house or an abandoned insane asylum, even though at some level you may not have any reason to think they are really that harmful. But the antisemitism is really enough by itself to say there is a good rational reason to stay away from them. I am not saying shun individuals, I am just saying I would not advise anyone to go to these chapels or overly focus on those type of websites or whatever- I have never seen or heard of anyone coming out of that who doesn't seem somewhat traumatized by the experience, even if they believe what is written. These are not a happy stable acting group of folks, on the whole, though there may be individual exceptions, of course. And some are very hateful and say things that Christ never would have about groups of people they don't care for.

 

[justlookinla]

I don't think there's much awareness of their existence among the average American Catholics. Those who are "plugged in" enough to post to a forum like this or attend a religious college or seminary classes or something mostly would consider them schismatic and not Catholics in the sense of being in communion with Rome (Albeit retaining valid Apostolic Succession).

Their profile is highest in France, where they have the highest mass attendance relative to masses in communion with Rome in that country relative to any other country, and in France they are deeply associated with very radical right wing politics and monarchism (i.e. They want their country ruled by a King ala Louis XIV), and still fringy and small relative to the overall French population (albeit not small relative to mass going Catholics in general from week to week). Globally, they have a very anti-semetic reputation, and had a bishop who was put on trial in one European country as a Holocaust denier.

Many of their writings online seem to reflect a great sense of a paranoia and anger, and a thin grasp on reality in the sense of understanding facts about the history of the Church (Though they study it and can expound on it at length, what they say about it just doesn't make much sense). They have a very distorted view of how things happened. Right from their founder, they also seem to waffle from sentence to sentence or paragraph to paragraph at times in terms of how much they accept current Popes. They'll say they are perfectly loyal and they have a picture of the Pope in the back of all their chapels and then within sentences be saying the Pope is a heretic and the smoke of Satan is in the Church and they aren't sure if he is really the Pope anyway, though he probably is, but not really. There is a confusion there among them, I sense. A sort of cognitive dissonance where they feel they can't be Catholic without the Pope, but they don't really think the Pope is Catholic- and it seems to be causing them a lot of distress and instability of thought.

Obviously, this doesn't apply to everyone who associates with them or goes to their masses. But in general, I really would encourage people to stay away from that rabbit hole. I know even very conservative Catholics who are extremely wary of this crowd. One person went to a small Catholic college undergrad where 10% of the students attended SSPX masses off-campus and she said they tended to have wide eyed looks and go on long rants defending the crusades, and generally were not really stable sort of people, and could get a little scary. And she is a straight ticket Republican voter who tends to have a Benediction view of the church. She's not a liberal Democrat like me.

I'm going to be my honest and speak in language I don't usually use and say I sense a certain evil and darkness in the SSPX and associated movements. They just really creep me out for reasons I have trouble articulating. It's like the way you might want to avoid a haunted house or an abandoned insane asylum, even though at some level you may not have any reason to think they are really that harmful. But the antisemitism is really enough by itself to say there is a good rational reason to stay away from them. I am not saying shun individuals, I am just saying I would not advise anyone to go to these chapels or overly focus on those type of websites or whatever- I have never seen or heard of anyone coming out of that who doesn't seem somewhat traumatized by the experience, even if they believe what is written. These are not a happy stable acting group of folks, on the whole, though there may be individual exceptions, of course. And some are very hateful and say things that Christ never would have groups of people they don't care for.

Quite informative and I appreciate the time and thought you put into the response. As an outsider (non-Catholic) looking in, it seemed that the SSPX isn't very important to the average Catholic and has little impact on the church. They appear to be mean-spirited, but that just may be me feeling that.

Again, thanks for your post.

 

[Tallguy88]

You won't be able to get a supportive opinion of them here, as it's against the rules to promote SSPX beliefs in OBOB.

They are not that big of a deal, at least not in my area. I think there's one SSPX chapel in my whole state.

 

[benedictaoo]

They are Catholic but are in schism. Didn't Benedict do something with them? Lift excommunication or something?

Anyway, their Mass is ligit, just not licit. We can't attend their Mass unless there was no other Mass to attend. Benedict did have an impact on many parishes implementing the Latin Mass, that's one of the complaints the SSPX has.

 

[benedictaoo]

You won't be able to get a supportive opinion of them here, as it's against the rules to promote SSPX beliefs in OBOB.

They are not that big of a deal, at least not in my area. I think there's one SSPX chapel in my whole state.

They don't have different belifes , they just do not acknowledge Vatican 2.

 

[Rhamiel]

I have sympathies for people in SSPX
they do not reject the Pope
they just do not follow the Pope if they think he is violating his proper role
kind of like a form of civil disobedience I guess? protesters do not say the Government is not a legitimate authority, but if the Government is stepping over the bounds of its authority, then you do not follow along....

now this is where the individual is setting himself up against the authority of the Pope
I think this is horrible
but.... I do hear Liberals talk about people having the right to follow their own conscience... so I am not sure how you can fault the SSPX people for that?

anyways, they are small and relatively insignificant

a lot of people hate them for political reasons

like you hear Catholics talk about being more ecumenical to Eastern Orthodox, to Protestants, even to Jews and Muslims
but the SSPX is the absolute closest to being in union with us and we let hate and disdain and politics keep us apart

I pray that they repent of their division and come back into full union with the Church

 

[LivingWordUnity]

You won't be able to get a supportive opinion of them here, as it's against the rules to promote SSPX beliefs in OBOB.

They are not that big of a deal, at least not in my area. I think there's one SSPX chapel in my whole state.

I wonder why SSPX Catholics can't post here in OBOB but Catholics who regularly say that the Church is wrong in her core doctrines of faith and morals such as her teachings on marriage, ordination, contraception, and abortion are tolerated. I'm not saying that I agree with SSPX. I don't. But I just wonder why there's a double standard. I know that some people will argue back that there are conservative Catholics who don't agree with the Pope in his opinion on Global Warming, but that's not the same as disagreeing with things that the Church says Catholics must agree with.

Edit:

Here's something related:

CDF - Regarding some errors arising from the interpretation of the decrees of the Second Vatican Council, 1966

9) The errors in the field of moral theology are no less trivial. Some, in fact, dare to reject the objective criteria of morality, while others do not acknowledge the natural law, preferring instead to advocate for the legitimacy of so-called situational ethics. Deleterious opinions are spread about morality and responsibility in the areas of sexuality and marriage.

10) In addition, it is necessary to comment about ecumenism. The Apostolic See praises, undoubtedly, those who promote initiatives, in the spirit of the conciliar Decree on Ecumenism, that foster charity toward our separated brothers and to draw them to unity in the Church. However, it is regrettable that some interpret the conciliar Decree in their own terms, proposing an ecumenical action that offends the truth about the unity of the faith and of the Church, fostering a pernicious irenicism [the error of creating a false unity among different Churches] and an indifferentism entirely alien to the mind of the Council.

These pernicious errors, scattered variously throughout the world, are recounted in this letter only in summary form for the local Ordinaries so that each one, according to his function and office, can strive to eradicate or hinder them.

(Read more)​

 

[Rhamiel]

the SSPX are mostly nice but kind of confused people

with all the changes that happened in the past 50 years, it is understandable that some people might be confused

 

[ebia]

The only Sspx group I've had any contact with are as mad as hatters, and regard the normal parish as in the depth of heresy for such dreadful things as, say, having co-ed schools.

 

[Tallguy88]

I wonder why SSPX Catholics can't post here in OBOB but Catholics who regularly say that the Church is wrong in her core doctrines of faith and morals such as her teachings on marriage, ordination, contraception, and abortion are tolerated. I'm not saying that I agree with SSPX. I don't. But I just wonder why there's a double standard. I know that some people will argue back that there are conservative Catholics who don't agree with the Pope in his opinion on Global Warming, but that's not the same as disagreeing with things that the Church says Catholics must agree with.

SSPX people can post here, but they can't promote SSPX-specific beliefs. That rule has been in place for a long time. You can ask David, he'll tell you.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

The only Sspx group I've had any contact with are as mad as hatters, and regard the normal parish as in the depth of heresy for such dreadful things as, say, having co-ed schools.

You keep saying that they believe that but you haven't provided the proof.

Not having co-ed schools isn't the same as calling it a heresy to have them.
.

 

[ebia]

You keep saying that they believe that but you haven't provided the proof.

Funnily enough, I haven't kept copies of the local paper they published their rants in.

Not having co-ed schools isn't the same as calling it a heresy to have them.
.

Take it up with them - they were the ones calling the local RCC priest and practices heretical, not me.

Their poster-boy bishop is a holocaust denier, so it ought not surprise anyone that there are some extreme views present

 

[pdudgeon]

SSPX people can post here, but they can't promote SSPX-specific beliefs. That rule has been in place for a long time. You can ask David, he'll tell you.

so in which forum could they promote SSPX specific beliefs?
Surely if the site provides the "Whosoever Will" forum, as well as other Congregational forums for those who are in historical and open opposition to the Catholic Church, then logically there should be a place for a SSPX point of view?

 

[ebia]

so in which forum could they promote SSPX specific beliefs?
Surely if the site provides the "Whosoever Will" forum, there must logically be a place for an opposing Christian point of view?

CF historically has provided community forums where a group of sufficient size has come forward and asked for it.

 

[FlaviusAetius]

So this seems like the appropriate place. Any explanation why the SSPX never created an AntiPope to challenge the Vaticn II Popes legitimacy?

 

[ebia]

So this seems like the appropriate place. Any explanation why the SSPX never created an AntiPope to challenge the Vaticn II Popes legitimacy?

Sspx aren't quite sedevaticanists. Just very close to it.

 

[pdudgeon]

CF historically has provided community forums where a group of sufficient size has come forward and asked for it.

What is ironic, though is that such a move was not made in tandem with the decision to suppress their voice on OBOB.
Especially in regards to the reception that other groups in opposition have been given here.

It would seem that this could possibly be a potential source of new members for CF.
It is, after all, a very old pro-active sales strategy to recognize a need, determine a market, create a space, and they will come.

 

[pdudgeon]

So this seems like the appropriate place. Any explanation why the SSPX never created an AntiPope to challenge the Vaticn II Popes legitimacy?

good question, but chances are that an answer won't be allowed.

 

[ebia]

What is ironic, though is that such a move was not made in tandem with the decision to suppress their voice on OBOB.
Especially in regards to the reception that other groups in opposition have been given here.

Wes there a sustainable community of SSPXers here ever?
(And ones prepared to abide by the rules)