I have evolved, don't think or believe as I did years ago RE Christianity, etc..

[discombobulated1]

I have changed a lot in the last several years, which is not a shocker, I know. Most people do, but I have changed somewhat radically.

I once got deep into studying my Catholic faith.. not a bad idea at all. I recommend all Catholics do this. But the problem is, you have to be careful what your sources are. I happened to serendipitously run into a book written by the late archbishop Lefebvre, who whole heartedly disagreed with the changes of Vatican II and wrote books on this. Then from there I studied Sedevacantism, which I have no problem with, to speak of. However, it seems to me that most professional Sedes are more into mocking "new church" and Francis than they are into.. well, works of charity or what have you. I know I shouldn't even say this because I do not know these people well. I just know that I went to this site once that was run by Sedevacantists and all they ever seemed to post were articles or videos on how awful new church is. The thing is, though.. It really IS awful.

So what am I trying to say here? I don't know... I mean, I am just disturbed, is all. I feel confused because the Catholic Church is divided into 3 parts: novus ordo, SSPX and Sedevantists. I can't say I whole-heartedly endorse the NO (new) church, but on the other hand, I just don't believe that Jesus would allow His Church to utterly fail, as they seem to think, just because anti-Christs took over the buildings (1958). He said that He would never leave us (Mt 28:20) He said his Church would not fail (Mt 16:18).

I feel very alone and misunderstood a lot of the time. It seems that priests in the NO don't want to talk about V2 (and why would they? it doesn't make them look good). I liked a SSPX priest I confessed to years ago.. very good in confession, acted interested in what I was saying. A Sede priest I went to for confession was OK but didn't seem half as interested. Maybe I shouldn't have expected him to be like the SSPX priest, and I do realize that... OK, never mind. I was going to go into some other things but I'll leave things @ that for now.

 

[Bob Crowley]

I'm currenlty reading a book on Vatican II or more accurately a lot of the misunderstandings about Vatican II.

The author posits a "para-council" which has decided it will have the authority to interpret what Vatican II was about. Both sides - conservatives and liberals - have their versions of the "para-council".

But he also indicated that a lot of the critics (on both sides - conservative and liberal) have never read the Vatican II documents for themselves.

They've simply heard opinions from others and then parroted them.

I remember my old Presbyterian pastor saying, way back before I became a Catholic, that "The church is asleep." All we seem to hear about these days is a magisterial bunfight.

 

[returntosender]

I feel the same way but not about a denomination. After being here for a few years. I feel ignorance is bliss which is where i was before. Much confusion . I hope you find an answer.

 

[discombobulated1]

I feel the same way but not about a denomination. After being here for a few years. I feel ignorance is bliss which is where i was before. Much confusion . I hope you find an answer.

I've found millions of answers, but there really is no answer to the question of Why can't the Catholic Church be ONE as Christ intended? I believe it is in John, Chapter 17 where Jesus prayed right b4 the Crucifixion that His people would be ONE. Yes, we know humans are sinners and can be exceedingly divisive (I hate when Republicans are that... while the left are united in their evil [baby killing, country-destroying...]). I think Jesus wanted better for His followers.

The Catholic Church is not a denomination. It is THE Church Christ founded. Extant writings indicate the word Catholic was used for His Church as early as 107 AD. That's not necessarily the soonest it was called that (the word means Universal), but that's what we have w/ the documents that have survived 2000+ years (or not survived). People are "informal" members of the Church even if not officially Catholic, insofar as they agree with the most important dogmas/doctrines taught by Christ's original Church.

 

[discombobulated1]

I'm currenlty reading a book on Vatican II or more accurately a lot of the misunderstandings about Vatican II.

The author posits a "para-council" which has decided it will have the authority to interpret what Vatican II was about. Both sides - conservatives and liberals - have their versions of the "para-council".

But he also indicated that a lot of the critics (on both sides - conservative and liberal) have never read the Vatican II documents for themselves.

They've simply heard opinions from others and then parroted them.

I remember my old Presbyterian pastor saying, way back before I became a Catholic, that "The church is asleep." All we seem to hear about these days is a magisterial bunfight.

I don't know.. Sleep sounds peaceful and serene. I would not use those terms. The Church is in deep trouble and turmoil. That's because Francis is a heretic (not teaching TRUE Christian theology). And the last 6 popes were not actual popes either. The Sedevacantists are correct about all they believe. But again, the problem seems to be (to me anyway) that... well, there are several. Sedes have told me that the Real PResence of Christ does not abide in the novus ordo and that is NOT TRUE. I once spend the entire night in a novus ordo Church in the NW (very liberal state, but conservative Church) and I cannot even put into words what happened in my spirit/soul that night. All I know for certain is that it was holy and beautiful and the most awesome moment of my entire life. No Sede or anyone else can tell me that that was not GOD.
I felt insulted by this one Sede who claimed I was just being emotional or whatever. Right.. I don't know the difference btwn emotionalism and a true experience with our Lord! Of course he didn't know me (only corresponded via email) so it's easy to forgive (and of course we have to forgive all things anyhow).

But all this said, I'm not sure the Real Presence is in ALL Catholic Churches. I'd have to visit them all to know.. LOL

 

[returntosender]

I wonder if we all aren't as the title says

 

[bèlla]

I feel the same way but not about a denomination. After being here for a few years. I feel ignorance is bliss which is where i was before. Much confusion.

I don't have a pressing need to know everything and I ignore a lot. I spent a few years dismantling my beliefs and doing a much needed purge. I wouldn't say I simplified per se. But I took things in hand and charted my own course. In a roundabout way its made me more prepared for this end time season.

Your race won't look like the next and that's okay. Some people take years to figure that out. They're trying to be like this one and that one and juggling a slew of teachings in their head. They're going everywhere for God but to the Source.

I eat from the Master's hand. That's my starting point and where things end after the human element. There's a lot of spaces and stillness within that so I can hear from Him or let my mind be at rest. Throughout the bible we see patterns of withdrawal. Time away with the Lord or for meditation. There's a practice of infilling (taking in the Presence) and release (pouring it out as directed).

When that doesn't occur you'll have an imbalance which leads to burnout, dryness, confusion, etc.

~bella

 

[yougetagoldstar]

Also, I recommend not using the word "evolve". None of us are "evolving", evolution is an imaginary concept. You used the right word "change" in the body of your thread. I say this because people have come to use the word "evolve" to imply that God's order/morality can develop into something entirely different; and this all plays on the concept of Darwinian evolution, which is a worldview that is antagonistic toward Christianity.

 

[AlexB23]

I have changed a lot in the last several years, which is not a shocker, I know. Most people do, but I have changed somewhat radically.

I once got deep into studying my Catholic faith.. not a bad idea at all. I recommend all Catholics do this. But the problem is, you have to be careful what your sources are. I happened to serendipitously run into a book written by the late archbishop Lefebvre, who whole heartedly disagreed with the changes of Vatican II and wrote books on this. Then from there I studied Sedevacantism, which I have no problem with, to speak of. However, it seems to me that most professional Sedes are more into mocking "new church" and Francis than they are into.. well, works of charity or what have you. I know I shouldn't even say this because I do not know these people well. I just know that I went to this site once that was run by Sedevacantists and all they ever seemed to post were articles or videos on how awful new church is. The thing is, though.. It really IS awful.

So what am I trying to say here? I don't know... I mean, I am just disturbed, is all. I feel confused because the Catholic Church is divided into 3 parts: novus ordo, SSPX and Sedevantists. I can't say I whole-heartedly endorse the NO (new) church, but on the other hand, I just don't believe that Jesus would allow His Church to utterly fail, as they seem to think, just because anti-Christs took over the buildings (1958). He said that He would never leave us (Mt 28:20) He said his Church would not fail (Mt 16:18).

I feel very alone and misunderstood a lot of the time. It seems that priests in the NO don't want to talk about V2 (and why would they? it doesn't make them look good). I liked a SSPX priest I confessed to years ago.. very good in confession, acted interested in what I was saying. A Sede priest I went to for confession was OK but didn't seem half as interested. Maybe I shouldn't have expected him to be like the SSPX priest, and I do realize that... OK, never mind. I was going to go into some other things but I'll leave things @ that for now.

Man, this is a difficult one, especially with all the Catholic terms (I am a relatively new Catholic, who goes to a Vatican II church that I like).


But, here goes it:

I'm here to listen and offer support if you need it brother. It sounds like you've been on a spiritual journey that has led you to question and explore different aspects of your Catholic faith, which is not an easy process but a commendable one. I can comprehend how confusing and distressing it can be to navigate through the various interpretations and perspectives within the Catholic Church, especially when it comes to the changes brought about by Vatican II.

Your experience with Sedevacantism and encountering some individuals who focus more on criticizing the "new church" rather than promoting charitable works is valid. It's important to remember that everyone interprets and practices their faith differently, and not all Sedevacantists may share the same perspective or approach.

It's also worth noting that the Catholic Church is a diverse and complex organization, with various traditions, organizations, and interpretations of doctrine. It's essential to differentiate between individuals and their actions and the Church as a whole. While it may be challenging to reconcile some differences, it's important to remember that Jesus promised to be with his Church until the end of time (Matthew 28:20).

It is understandable that you may feel alone and misunderstood at times, but it's essential to remember that there are many Catholics who share your concerns and questions. You might consider reaching out to local Catholic organizations or communities that align more closely with your beliefs, or engaging in online forums or groups where you can connect with like-minded individuals.

Ultimately, it's up to each of us to continue seeking knowledge and understanding of our faith while remaining open-minded and respectful towards others. I hope this provides some perspective, and please don't hesitate to reach out to me or others on CF if you need someone to talk to or have any further questions.

 

[discombobulated1]

This is weird. Anyone here know the answer to this Q

I got a reply to this OP in my email, but it is not here. What happened?

?

 

[discombobulated1]

Man, this is a difficult one, especially with all the Catholic terms (I am a relatively new Catholic, who goes to a Vatican II church that I like).


But, here goes it:

I'm here to listen and offer support if you need it brother. It sounds like you've been on a spiritual journey that has led you to question and explore different aspects of your Catholic faith, which is not an easy process but a commendable one. I can comprehend how confusing and distressing it can be to navigate through the various interpretations and perspectives within the Catholic Church, especially when it comes to the changes brought about by Vatican II.

Your experience with Sedevacantism and encountering some individuals who focus more on criticizing the "new church" rather than promoting charitable works is valid. It's important to remember that everyone interprets and practices their faith differently, and not all Sedevacantists may share the same perspective or approach.

It's also worth noting that the Catholic Church is a diverse and complex organization, with various traditions, organizations, and interpretations of doctrine. It's essential to differentiate between individuals and their actions and the Church as a whole. While it may be challenging to reconcile some differences, it's important to remember that Jesus promised to be with his Church until the end of time (Matthew 28:20).

It is understandable that you may feel alone and misunderstood at times, but it's essential to remember that there are many Catholics who share your concerns and questions. You might consider reaching out to local Catholic organizations or communities that align more closely with your beliefs, or engaging in online forums or groups where you can connect with like-minded individuals.

Ultimately, it's up to each of us to continue seeking knowledge and understanding of our faith while remaining open-minded and respectful towards others. I hope this provides some perspective, and please don't hesitate to reach out to me or others on CF if you need someone to talk to or have any further questions.

Thanks. Yeh, I hope I didn't sound like I was lumping everyone together. I know all too well how awful that sounds when Catholic critics do that... blame everything that individuals in the Church do on the CHURCH.. you know.. they say the Church condones pedophilia or something to that effect when only 2% of priests were credibly accused of that. Yeh, I have years of experience dealing with people who speak about "the CHURCH did this" or that..

Anyway, thanks for the offer to listen and support. I certainly wasn't getting any support at this one forum I went to recently. Even Catholics attacked me just for criticizing Francis and other related issues! What, we're supposed to just follow anyone who comes along and calls himself Catholic? Talk about being confused (if you were to do that). I came up with this little motto years ago: You can be Catholic but not truly Christian. I can't always tell who is truly Christian, but when people say rude and snarky things for NO reason... that could be a clue. So I don't go to that forum anymore. They didn't have rules there against snark-throwing and people seem to go there to vent their every frustration in life. But anyhow... forgot what I was supposed to be saying here! LOL

I think I mentioned that a couple Sedes told me that the Real Presence of Christ is not in the NO Churches. I have YEARS of experience in the NO Church, the only one I knew up until a few years ago, and I KNOW (don't believe but know) that that is not the case. But the Sedes in question just rejected what I was saying outright. And one Sede priest who is young and literally has never been in a NO Church told me I "couldn't" go to a NO Church AND the Sede Church... I should have asked him exactly why, but I guess he thinks that the Eucharist in the NO is not valid. Well, I've had numerous problems w/ different priests over the years, but that does not mean that Christ has abandoned the NO Church. (more later)

 

[AlexB23]

Thanks. Yeh, I hope I didn't sound like I was lumping everyone together. I know all too well how awful that sounds when Catholic critics do that... blame everything that individuals in the Church do on the CHURCH.. you know.. they say the Church condones pedophilia or something to that effect when only 2% of priests were credibly accused of that. Yeh, I have years of experience dealing with people who speak about "the CHURCH did this" or that..

Anyway, thanks for the offer to listen and support. I certainly wasn't getting any support at this one forum I went to recently. Even Catholics attacked me just for criticizing Francis and other related issues! What, we're supposed to just follow anyone who comes along and calls himself Catholic? Talk about being confused (if you were to do that). I came up with this little motto years ago: You can be Catholic but not truly Christian. I can't always tell who is truly Christian, but when people say rude and snarky things for NO reason... that could be a clue. So I don't go to that forum anymore. They didn't have rules there against snark-throwing and people seem to go there to vent their every frustration in life. But anyhow... forgot what I was supposed to be saying here! LOL

I think I mentioned that a couple Sedes told me that the Real Presence of Christ is not in the NO Churches. I have YEARS of experience in the NO Church, the only one I knew up until a few years ago, and I KNOW (don't believe but know) that that is not the case. But the Sedes in question just rejected what I was saying outright. And one Sede priest who is young and literally has never been in a NO Church told me I "couldn't" go to a NO Church AND the Sede Church... I should have asked him exactly why, but I guess he thinks that the Eucharist in the NO is not valid. Well, I've had numerous problems w/ different priests over the years, but that does not mean that Christ has abandoned the NO Church. (more later)

I agree. While Francis has done a lot of good, some of this stuff is a bit different. It is best, that we just focus on the Bible, and being nice to each other. The doctrines do not matter as much, as long as we hold true to Jesus ourselves. That other forum you were on sounded like a toxic environment.

 

[discombobulated1]

I agree. While Francis has done a lot of good, some of this stuff is a bit different. It is best, that we just focus on the Bible, and being nice to each other. The doctrines do not matter as much, as long as we hold true to Jesus ourselves. That other forum you were on sounded like a toxic environment.

Francis talks out both sides of his mouth, like any con artist. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but that is the truth as I see it (and many others see it that way). I've been to novusordowatch.org and again, they tend to go on and on about how awful the NO is and that's about all they do, but still, they are correct or if they are not on some point or another, i have no way of knowing they are not because I am not a professional theologian. But they document everything they say and give massive citations... too massive, it seems, at times. But anyway, like you say, the important thing is staying close to Christ. I do this through prayer, mostly the rosary but all kinds of prayer. I know the Bible better than most people I've met or encountered on the internet. So I know Jesus, but the Real PResence in the Church is the big one for me, and should be for others. Sadly, most people do not go there... At that other site I mentioned that has a lot of snark, I'd tell people about the RP and they acted like I was telling them what I had for lunch.. you know... big YAWN type reaction. If they only KNEW... but you can only lead a horse to water...

 

[Valletta]

Anyway, thanks for the offer to listen and support. I certainly wasn't getting any support at this one forum I went to recently. Even Catholics attacked me just for criticizing Francis and other related issues! What, we're supposed to just follow anyone who comes along and calls himself Catholic?

Didn't you call Pope Francis a "heretic" and say the last six popes are not valid?" Consider that some Catholics might consider that it was you did the attacking and they responded. I don't like MANY of the actions of Pope Francis myself, I think he is sowing confusion on important issues. From a Catholic perspective, over almost 2000 years there have been some bad popes. We realize that popes can go to Heaven or hell. At various points of history when there were bad popes groups of Catholics could have broken the line of popes and started their own groups. We were told that the wheat would not be separated from the tares here on earth. I am saddened that such a schism happened. My parish church is the Church of St. Pius X. Perhaps now I have attended more masses in English than Latin, and I think that it is a good thing masses are in the common vernacular so more can understand. There are some beautiful documents from Vatican II and in my study of the situation it was not the content of Vatican II that caused such problems in the faith, it was giving in to the culture and misrepresenting Vatican II to put forth changes that were not from Vatican II.

 

[AlexB23]

Francis talks out both sides of his mouth, like any con artist. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but that is the truth as I see it (and many others see it that way). I've been to novusordowatch.org and again, they tend to go on and on about how awful the NO is and that's about all they do, but still, they are correct or if they are not on some point or another, i have no way of knowing they are not because I am not a professional theologian. But they document everything they say and give massive citations... too massive, it seems, at times. But anyway, like you say, the important thing is staying close to Christ. I do this through prayer, mostly the rosary but all kinds of prayer. I know the Bible better than most people I've met or encountered on the internet. So I know Jesus, but the Real PResence in the Church is the big one for me, and should be for others. Sadly, most people do not go there... At that other site I mentioned that has a lot of snark, I'd tell people about the RP and they acted like I was telling them what I had for lunch.. you know... big YAWN type reaction. If they only KNEW... but you can only lead a horse to water...

I do not know much about this, so I'll let you continue your discussion with other CF members.

 

[discombobulated1]

Didn't you call Pope Francis a "heretic" and say the last six popes are not valid?" Consider that some Catholics might consider that it was you did the attacking and they responded. I don't like MANY of the actions of Pope Francis myself, I think he is sowing confusion on important issues. From a Catholic perspective, over almost 2000 years there have been some bad popes. We realize that popes can go to Heaven or hell. At various points of history when there were bad popes groups of Catholics could have broken the line of popes and started their own groups. We were told that the wheat would not be separated from the tares here on earth. I am saddened that such a schism happened. My parish church is the Church of St. Pius X. Perhaps now I have attended more masses in English than Latin, and I think that it is a good thing masses are in the common vernacular so more can understand. There are some beautiful documents from Vatican II and in my study of the situation it was not the content of Vatican II that caused such problems in the faith, it was giving in to the culture and misrepresenting Vatican II to put forth changes that were not from Vatican II.

I agree w/ nearly all u say here, minus the implied accusation at the start. I mean, why am I wrong to say Francis is a heretic? Are you saying he is not? Please answer this (bolded) question

Also, the missals Catholics had prior to 1962 were in both English AND Latin, so I don't know why people keep saying Oh, it is so nice to hear the readings in my own language! That's a little bit of a lie. Anyone who went to Mass prior to V2 knows that. I wasn't old enough, but I have seen old missals.

Also, if anyone wants to understand where I am at on these issues, one should read as many posts as possible. I say this because I have absolutely NO idea why you are accusing me of "attacking" anyone! Oh, I am attacking the NO Church? Well, in my experiences, which you don't have thefirst clue about, it is definitely attack- worthy. The only good thing about it (to speak of) is that the Real Presence of Christ is still there----at least in SOME of them.

 

[discombobulated1]

I do not know much about this, so I'll let you continue your discussion with other CF members.

I get that. But you do know what you know... As they say vis a vis those who want to write a book or article:

Write what you know. I am always curious as to what others know, that maybe I do not know..

 

[Valletta]

I agree w/ nearly all u say here, minus the implied accusation at the start. I mean, why am I wrong to say Francis is a heretic? Are you saying he is not? Please answer this (bolded) question

Also, the missals Catholics had prior to 1962 were in both English AND Latin, so I don't know why people keep saying Oh, it is so nice to hear the readings in my own language! That's a little bit of a lie. Anyone who went to Mass prior to V2 knows that. I wasn't old enough, but I have seen old missals.

Also, if anyone wants to understand where I am at on these issues, one should read as many posts as possible. I say this because I have absolutely NO idea why you are accusing me of "attacking" anyone! Oh, I am attacking the NO Church? Well, in my experiences, which you don't have thefirst clue about, it is definitely attack- worthy. The only good thing about it (to speak of) is that the Real Presence of Christ is still there----at least in SOME of them.

Actually you accused Catholics of attacking you, and I pointed out you had called the pope a heretic, and you said the last six popes were not valid popes. It's all a matter of perspective, I pointed out that perhaps they thought you had attacked them. Let's discuss.

You say that it's "a little bit of a lie" (not the best words for a civil discussion) about it being nice to hear the mass in your own language and that missals were available. I've been to hundreds of masses said in Latin. It is EXTREMELY difficult to follow along word by word, with the priest saying words fast, not always audible. I make an effort to hear masses in English when I travel, for the sake of awareness and participation. When I was went to a German mass in Germany I lost my place a number of times. So it was a wonderful Vatican II reform for vernacular language so the people can better understand and participate. Realize that the only reason the mass in Europe switched from Greek to Latin was that Latin had become the language of the people. There are some beautiful hymns in Latin that are best sung in Latin, just last night started at the end of the mass we had adoration and one of the popular hymns was sung, and I appreciate the beauty.

 

[Solo81]

The RCC isn't divided into 3 parts; it is One - "one, holy and catholic". The SSPX + Sed's are sub-cultures within the RCC, not seperate churches.

If Christ abandoned His Bride, 5 Popes ago...is He even Christ? What sort of saviour is He if He won't keep His word? Or is it that fallible men are correct and Christ did leave the NO RCC?

"By their fruits shall you know them."
"A good tree does not bear bad fruit and a bad tree can not produce good fruit."

What fruit do the SSPX/Sed produce?

 

[fhansen]

I have changed a lot in the last several years, which is not a shocker, I know. Most people do, but I have changed somewhat radically.

I once got deep into studying my Catholic faith.. not a bad idea at all. I recommend all Catholics do this. But the problem is, you have to be careful what your sources are. I happened to serendipitously run into a book written by the late archbishop Lefebvre, who whole heartedly disagreed with the changes of Vatican II and wrote books on this. Then from there I studied Sedevacantism, which I have no problem with, to speak of. However, it seems to me that most professional Sedes are more into mocking "new church" and Francis than they are into.. well, works of charity or what have you. I know I shouldn't even say this because I do not know these people well. I just know that I went to this site once that was run by Sedevacantists and all they ever seemed to post were articles or videos on how awful new church is. The thing is, though.. It really IS awful.

So what am I trying to say here? I don't know... I mean, I am just disturbed, is all. I feel confused because the Catholic Church is divided into 3 parts: novus ordo, SSPX and Sedevantists. I can't say I whole-heartedly endorse the NO (new) church, but on the other hand, I just don't believe that Jesus would allow His Church to utterly fail, as they seem to think, just because anti-Christs took over the buildings (1958). He said that He would never leave us (Mt 28:20) He said his Church would not fail (Mt 16:18).

I feel very alone and misunderstood a lot of the time. It seems that priests in the NO don't want to talk about V2 (and why would they? it doesn't make them look good). I liked a SSPX priest I confessed to years ago.. very good in confession, acted interested in what I was saying. A Sede priest I went to for confession was OK but didn't seem half as interested. Maybe I shouldn't have expected him to be like the SSPX priest, and I do realize that... OK, never mind. I was going to go into some other things but I'll leave things @ that for now.

Follow the Church, not its detractors and dissenters, which we'll always have. The Church convened Vat II and determined its teachings. The Church produced the Novus Ordo and the new catechism. The Church is not sedevacantist. Don't be impressed by this ultra traditionalism; it's a false piety. We don't follow Lefebvre, or Matthew Fox for that matter, just because they see themselves as true Catholic while being something less. Read the catechism-you'll find wisdom and orthodoxy there. Even if Francis proves to be a less than sterling Christian leader, God is in control and will ultimately not allow false teachings to enter His Church.