Penance Quiz

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PT Calvinist

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Any work outside of Grace is just straw, that's why the Sacrament of Peneance is considered a "good work" and not a work. Because the ultimate source of a good work is God's Grace, when we submit our self will, to God's will....the graces abound, to allow for a good work to be accomplished.
Sounds good, but what of these?:

"being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"- Romans 3:24

"For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” "- Romans 4:3

"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"- Romans 4:5

"Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. "- Romans 5:9

"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. "- Romans 11:6

" For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;"- Ephesians 2:8
 
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PaladinValer

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What can penance cover which Christ has not already, in His atoning work of the Cross.

People who steal still must give back.

People who lied still must speak the truth.

The orthodox way is to give back.
Your way apparently is not necessarily having to give back.

There's a BIG difference.

Changed his heart too.:)

Indeed! :thumbsup:

Jesus can't say I'm sorry for a person. When one person sins against another.

He can forgive our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us but He can't forgive others for us. We have to do that and that is also penance.

Penance flows from His atonement at the cross.

Forgive our trespasses as we forgive those that trespass against us.

Amen!

Any work outside of Grace is just straw, that's why the Sacrament of Peneance is considered a "good work" and not a work. Because the ultimate source of a good work is God's Grace, when we submit our self will, to God's will....the graces abound, to allow for a good work to be accomplished.

Another amen!

Without penance, reconciliation is far more difficult.
 
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simonthezealot

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Any work outside of Grace is just straw, that's why the Sacrament of Peneance is considered a "good work" and not a work. Because the ultimate source of a good work is God's Grace, when we submit our self will, to God's will....the graces abound, to allow for a good work to be accomplished.
The way you've worded this, one would summize that your church does NOT teach that by good works are you able to earn the "grace of justification" when in fact they teach exactly that.
 
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PassthePeace1

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Sounds good, but what of these?:

"being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"- Romans 3:24

"For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” "- Romans 4:3

"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"- Romans 4:5

"Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. "- Romans 5:9

"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. "- Romans 11:6

" For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;"- Ephesians 2:8

Don't have a problem with any of them, just the way some people interpret them. :)
 
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PT Calvinist

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Don't have a problem with any of them, just the way some people interpret them. :)
Notice how the Bible contrasts faith and works when it comes to being made right with God. The Bible rejects works of any kind as a means of being made right with God.
 
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PassthePeace1

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The way you've worded this, one would summize that your church does NOT teach that by good works are you able to earn the "grace of justification" when in fact they teach exactly that.

No Simon, that is not what Catholicism teaches!! That's your own preception of what Catholicism teaches, not the reality.
 
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MrPolo

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Polo's a sharp guy, wherever he goes with it, it'll be interesting.

Not necessarily going anywhere...just putting food on the table we can all dine on. :)

So what do you think then: a convert's initial repentance is not separate from the work of the Cross, but making amends for one's sin is separate from the Cross?
 
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MrPolo

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According to catholicism, Can a sinner by good works, obtain the grace of justification?

No, justification begins only with God's free gift of grace. Not by anything we do. :D
CCC#1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.
The faith and works which we actualize is only because of God's grace!
 
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simonthezealot

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No Simon, that is not what Catholicism teaches!! That's your own preception of what Catholicism teaches, not the reality.
really>? ever read session 6 of the councel of trent?
 
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PT Calvinist

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The New Saint Joseph Baltimore Catechism, Vol. 2, 1969, p. 199 says,
"The priest gives us a penance after confession that we may make some atonement to God for our sins, receive help to avoid them in the future, and make some satisfaction for the temporal punishment due to them."
 
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simonthezealot

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No, justification begins only with God's free gift of grace. Not by anything we do. :D
CCC#1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.
The faith and works which we actualize is only because of God's grace!

BEGINS...I see you put the qualifier in there.

Have you read the 6th session of trent on justification?

Back to my yes or no question...

According to catholicism, Can a sinner by good works, obtain the grace of justification?

YES OR NO?
 
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Athanasias

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really>? ever read session 6 of the councel of trent?

I have the canon and decrees of the council of Trent and obviously you misunderstood them. We study them in Grad school. Here is the first part of session six canon 1>

"CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema(excommunicated)."
 
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PassthePeace1

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Is this the section?

CHAPTER XVI.
On the fruit of Justification, that is, on the merit of good works, and on the nature of that merit.
Before men, therefore, who have been justified in this manner,-whether they have preserved uninterruptedly the grace received, or whether they have recovered it when lost,-are to be set the words of the Apostle: Abound in every good work, knowing that your labour is not in vain in the Lord; for God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown in his name; and, do not lose your confidence, which hath a great reward. And, for this cause, life eternal is to be proposed to those working well unto [Page 43] the end, and hoping in God, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Jesus Christ, and as a reward which is according to the promise of God Himself, to be faithfully rendered to their good works and merits. For this is that crown of justice which the Apostle declared was, after his fight and course, laid up for him, to be rendered to him by the just judge, and not only to him, but also to all that love his coming. For, whereas Jesus Christ Himself continually infuses his virtue into the said justified,-as the head into the members, and the vine into the branches,-and this virtue always precedes and accompanies and follows their good works, which without it could not in any wise be pleasing and meritorious before God,-we must believe that nothing further is wanting to the justified, to prevent their being accounted to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life, and to have truly merited eternal life, to be obtained also in its (due) time, if so be, however, that they depart in grace: seeing that Christ, our Saviour, saith: If any one shall drink of the water that I will give him, he shall not thirst for ever; but it shall become in him a fountain of water springing up unto life everlasting. Thus, neither is our own justice established as our own as from ourselves; nor is the justice of God ignored or repudiated: for that justice which is called ours, because that we are justified from its being inherent in us, that same is (the justice) of God, because that it is infused into us of God, through the merit of Christ. Neither is this to be omitted,-that although, in the sacred writings, so much is attributed to good works, that Christ promises, that even he that shall give a drink of cold water to one of his least ones, shall not lose his reward; and the Apostle testifies that, That which is at present momentary and light of our tribulation, worketh for us above measure exceedingly an eternal weight of glory; nevertheless God forbid that a Christian should either trust or glory in himself, and not in the Lord, whose bounty towards all [Page 44] men is so great, that He will have the things which are His own gifts be their merits. And forasmuch as in many things we all offend, each one ought to have before his eyes, as well the severity and judgment, as the mercy and goodness (of God); neither ought any one to judge himself, even though he be not conscious to himself of anything; because the whole life of man is to be examined and judged, not by the judgment of man, but of God, who will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts, and then shall every man have praise from God, who, as it is written, will render to every man according to his works. After this Catholic doctrine on Justification, which whoso receiveth not faithfully and firmly cannot be justified, it hath seemed good to the holy Synod to subjoin these canons, that all may know not only what they ought to hold and follow, but also what to avoid and shun.
ON JUSTIFICATION
 
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