Penance Quiz

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MrPolo

Woe those who call evil good + good evil. Is 5:20
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BEGINS...I see you put the qualifier in there.

Have you read the 6th session of trent on justification?

Back to my yes or no question...

According to catholicism, Can a sinner by good works, obtain the grace of justification?

YES OR NO?

More than one of us said "No." I qualified it as "begins" because for us justification is ongoing, workout your salvation with fear and trembling, yadda, yadda.....

The Council of Trent says the same thing we just told you:
It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ, that is, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits on their part, they are called; that they who by sin had been cut off from God, may be disposed through His quickening and helping grace to convert themselves to their own justification by freely assenting to and cooperating with that grace; so that, while God touches the heart of man through the illumination of the Holy Ghost, man himself neither does absolutely nothing while receiving that inspiration, since he can also reject it, nor yet is he able by his own free will and without the grace of God to move himself to justice in His sight. (Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 5)​
Yayyyyy! Simon can be Catholic!! :D
 
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MrPolo

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"CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema(excommunicated)."

Bonus!
 
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PassthePeace1

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CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.
 
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simonthezealot

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CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.
 
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simonthezealot

have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?
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More than one of us said "No." I qualified it as "begins" because for us justification is ongoing, workout your salvation with fear and trembling, yadda, yadda.....
I know catholicism incorrectly teaches that sanctification encompasses justification (works salvation), you can't confound the 2 the way Rome does.
 
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Tyndale

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Identify the fake verse in this passage:

Luke 19:2-10
2 Now a man there named Zacchaeus, who was a chief tax collector and also a wealthy man, 3 was seeking to see who Jesus was; but he could not see him because of the crowd, for he was short in stature. 4 So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore tree in order to see Jesus, who was about to pass that way. 5 When he reached the place, Jesus looked up and said to him, "Zacchaeus, come down quickly, for today I must stay at your house." 6 And he came down quickly and received him with joy. 7 When they all saw this, they began to grumble, saying, "He has gone to stay at the house of a sinner." 8 But the Lord said to
Zacchaeus, "Give half of your possessions to the poor, and whatever you have extorted from anyone repay it four times over." 9 And Jesus said to him, "This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save what was lost."
 
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Athanasias

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CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

That is correct you are just misunderstanding how that phrase is used in Catholic theology. That verse from Trent was teaching against mere faith alone(which at that time was seen as "mere intellectual assent alone" or merely admitting that God exist but not having a active love through good works. Well James(2:1-24) tells us that even the demons have that kind of faith alone and it doesn't save them. That is what Trent is addressing! We must have intellectual assent but not intellectual assent alone one must also have a love that expresses itself in works . St. Paul said a Faith working through love(Gal 5:6). This is the type of faith and cooperation Trent addresses. this is a saving faith according to Trent and to Paul. One can tell this by reading the phrase "Meaning that" which is a qualifier in the councils decrees and studying the wording of Trent in history in a college class.

Again trent also clears this up in Canon 1 which i quoted and in the quotes give to you by pass the peace and Mr Polo.

"CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema."(excommunicated)
 
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PassthePeace1

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CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

And so? Didn't you read all the other quotes, or the whole document it'self....that should have put your fears to rest.
 
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MrPolo

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And so? Didn't you read all the other quotes, or the whole document it'self....that should have put your fears to rest.

I agree. I think our work in this particular conversation is done here!

hero.gif


Now back to our regularly scheduled OP! So is penance included or excluded in repentance.....? :)
 
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PassthePeace1

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CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

Here is a quote from the CCC on Justification, the footnote to this quote is from the Council of Trent.

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:
When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42
 
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Tyndale

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Zacchaeus recognised Jesus as the Lord, he feed his sheep (gave to the poor and repaid any man who he falsely received goods from). It seems he was a good law-abiding tax collector, but more importantly he "sought to see Jesus". (Luke 19:3) sought taken from Greek 'zeteo' meaning - specially, (by Hebraism) to worship (God)
 
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simonthezealot

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Again trent also clears this up in Canon 1 which i quoted and in the quotes give to you by pass the peace and Mr Polo.

"CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema."(excommunicated)

I know how it works ATH where justification begins in catholicism (baptism) as a work of the HS. BUT canon 9 clearly shows that works OBTAINS for you the "grace of justification"..
Your works are NECESSARY for your justification, this you can NOT deny.
You are justified WITH the grace of Christ...as opposed to BY the grace of Christ.
 
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simonthezealot

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Now back to our regularly scheduled OP! So is penance included or excluded in repentance.....? :)
That was addressed thoroughly already...
They are two completely seperate things inward change vs outward motions
 
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simonthezealot

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I am curious what folks on here consider the definition of justification.


For me...
It is being placed by God into a right relationship with HIM...
God's attitude toward a sinner is eternal punishment, when we are justified we are seen by Him in a right standing, Christs perfection is imputed to us...
 
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MrPolo

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That was addressed thoroughly already...
They are two completely seperate things inward change vs outward motions

I appreciate your input, make no mistake! And we can all agree "motions" are not at the heart of good works anyway.
 
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MrPolo

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WHAT IS THIS THREAD ABOUT? Good works unto salvation?

Has anyone yet read post 52? Maybe you were too busy arguing with each other.

What do you think...is Zaccheus following through with repaying the wrongs he did part of his repentance?
 
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boswd

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I agree. I think our work in this particular conversation is done here!

hero.gif


Now back to our regularly scheduled OP! So is penance included or excluded in repentance.....? :)


Nice job on that guys, this is another part he seem to "skim past in his cherry picking"

CHAPTER II.
On the dispensation and mystery of Christ's advent.
Whence it came to pass, that the heavenly Father, the father of mercies and the God of all comfort, when that blessed fulness of the time was come, sent unto men, Jesus Christ, His own Son-who had been, both before the Law, and during the time of the Law, to many of the holy fathers announced and promised-that He might both redeem the Jews who were under the Law, and that the Gentiles, who followed not after justice, might attain to justice, and that all men might receive the adoption of sons. Him God hath proposed as a propitiator, through faith in his blood, for our sins, and not for our sins only, but also for those of the whole world.
CHAPTER III.
Who are justified through Christ. But, though He died for all, yet do not all receive the benefit of His [Page 32] death, but those only unto whom the merit of His passion is communicated. For as in truth men, if they were not born propagated of the seed of Adam, would not be born unjust,-seeing that, by that propagation, they contract through him, when they are conceived, injustice as their own,-so, if they were not born again in Christ, they never would be justified; seeing that, in that new birth, there is bestowed upon them, through the merit of His passion, the grace whereby they are made just. For this benefit the apostle exhorts us, evermore to give thanks to the Father, who hath made us worthy to be partakers of the lot of the saints in light, and hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the Kingdom of the Son of his love, in whom we have redemption, and remission of sins.


You see he does understand Catholicism he just chooses to mis present Catholicism.

Nice job Polo and Pace the Peace Paladin.
 
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Albion

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04.gif


Identify the fake verse in this passage:
Luke 19:2-10
2 Now a man there named Zacchaeus, who was a chief tax collector and also a wealthy man, 3 was seeking to see who Jesus was; but he could not see him because of the crowd, for he was short in stature. 4 So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore tree in order to see Jesus, who was about to pass that way. 5 When he reached the place, Jesus looked up and said to him, "Zacchaeus, come down quickly, for today I must stay at your house." 6 And he came down quickly and received him with joy. 7 When they all saw this, they began to grumble, saying, "He has gone to stay at the house of a sinner." 8 But Zacchaeus stood there and said to the Lord, "Behold, half of my possessions, Lord, I shall give to the poor, and if I have extorted anything from anyone I shall repay it four times over." 9 And Jesus said to him, "Since you have already received me as your savior, you do not need to repay the last penny. 10 For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save what was lost."

I've got to agree with Tyndale. This is a not terribly funny attempt to promote works-righteousness by altering the words of Holy Scripture and Jesus' teachings. Not a great idea, when you think about it.
 
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