Need some opinions on the "Unpardonable Sin".

[Avid]

Correct,I think we're on the same page.

Just wanted some clarification

Just as the quote in your signature states, "... one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts," we need to guard against the common problems that make just about everyone circumvent the word of God. They have arguments that reduce the scripture to being a book of peotry to them.

It is a concern that there seems to be such a "dumbing-down" of all details and concepts in the Bible to just one, or a very few, things. I could say much, but I have said it all in one way or another in previous posts.

I noticed this about 20 years ago discussing things with a deacon in a Church I attended. As he would say something, I would quote a scripture passage, and try to show what the Bible said, but his EVERY response was, "... but John 3:16 says, For God So Loved the World... "

Apparently, because God so loved the world, His law (of which Jesus Christ said, "... Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." - Matt.5:18) has no more validity. Apparently, because God so loved the world, He was no longer "... angry with the wicked everyday." (Psa.7:11) Apparently, because God so loved the world, God had not "... also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:" (Rom.1:24)

This REALLY made the man (nice guy that he was) quote John 3:16, when I reminded him of this that is Wisdom speaking, though her words are attributed to God by just about everyone:

Proverbs 1
24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
​

No such concept of scripture could endure his overuse of ONE THING that meant all other things were not valid. Thus, we now have every response to anything scripture says (even by our LORD Jesus Christ, Himself,) that, "... as long as there is breath in their bodies, they have opportunity to accept Christ." Even when the LORD Jesus Christ has pronounced their eternal doom, they may still accept Jesus and be saved.

John Bunyan wrote a book where he included the truth of the matter in the title:

T H E
BARREN FIG-TREE;
OR,
THE DOOM AND DOWNFALL OF THE FRUITLESS PROFESSOR:
SHOWING, THAT THE DAY OF GRACE MAY BE PAST WITH HIM
LONG BEFORE HIS LIFE IS ENDED;
​

http://www.achristianspirit.com/BarrenFig.html

People are walking this Earth, having crossed a line with God. The day of grace has passed, and they have no concept of it. Samson allowed the Philistine woman, Delilah, to learn the secret of his strength, and knew not that God had left him. the secret was the obedience of the Nazarite. His hair had never been touched with a razor till that time.

Judges 16
20 And she said, The Philistines be upon thee, Samson. And he awoke out of his sleep, and said, I will go out as at other times before, and shake myself. And he wist not that the LORD was departed from him.
​

Since no one seems to even have a true idea of who is saved, the true Christ-like behavior expected by God is criticized as not being "Christian" behavior. There is no way to counter this, "... if someone is saved, ..." argument. NOTHING will trump that argument in the minds of too many people these days.

 

[rockytopva]

Christian's battle with the devil... From John Bunyan's Pilgrims Progress...

APOL. Thou didst faint at first setting out, when thou wast almost choked in the Gulf of Despond; thou didst attempt wrong ways to be rid of thy burden, whereas thou shouldst have stayed till thy Prince had taken it off; thou didst sinfully sleep and lose thy choice thing; thou wast, also, almost persuaded to go back at the sight of the lions; and when thou talkest of thy journey, and of what thou hast heard and seen, thou art inwardly desirous of vain-glory in all that thou sayest or doest.

I believe that sinning against the Holy Spirit is another allegation that the devil uses against Christians. The devils ways are to accuse. If he is accusing you of sinning against the Holy Spirit, as he is a liar, you haven't.


The German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer stated that all truth goes through three steps: "First it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Finally, it is accepted as self-evident."

The devil has a multi-step approach when dealing with Christians. I believe one of them is accusing young CHristians of sinning against the Holy Spirit. Christian's resolution at the approach of Apollyon...

Therefore he resolved to venture and stand his ground; for, thought he, had I no more in mine eye than the saving of my life, it would be the best way to stand.

So he went on, and Apollyon met him. Now the monster was hideous to behold; he was clothed with scales, like a fish, (and they are his pride,) he had wings like a dragon, feet like a bear, and out of his belly came fire and smoke, and his mouth was as the mouth of a lion. When he was come up to Christian, he beheld him with a disdainful countenance, and thus began to question with him.

APOL. Whence come you? and whither are you bound?

CHR. I am come from the City of Destruction, which is the place of all evil, and am going to the City of Zion.

APOL. By this I perceive thou art one of my subjects, for all that country is mine, and I am the prince and god of it. How is it, then, that thou hast run away from thy king? Were it not that I hope thou mayest do me more service, I would strike thee now, at one blow, to the ground.

CHR. I was born, indeed, in your dominions, but your service was hard, and your wages such as a man could not live on, "for the wages of sin is death" [Rom 6:23]; therefore, when I was come to years, I did, as other considerate persons do, look out, if, perhaps, I might mend myself.

Apollyon's flattery

APOL. There is no prince that will thus lightly lose his subjects, neither will I as yet lose thee; but since thou complainest of thy service and wages, be content to go back: what our country will afford, I do here promise to give thee.

CHR. But I have let myself to another, even to the King of princes; and how can I, with fairness, go back with thee?

APOL. Thou hast done in this, according to the proverb, "Changed a bad for a worse"; but it is ordinary for those that have professed themselves his servants, after a while to give him the slip, and return again to me. Do thou so too, and all shall be well.

CHR. I have given him my faith, and sworn my allegiance to him; how, then, can I go back from this, and not be hanged as a traitor?

APOL. Thou didst the same to me, and yet I am willing to pass by all, if now thou wilt yet turn again and go back.

CHR. What I promised thee was in my nonage; and, besides, I count the Prince under whose banner now I stand is able to absolve me; yea, and to pardon also what I did as to my compliance with thee; and besides, O thou destroying Apollyon! to speak truth, I like his service, his wages, his servants, his government, his company, and country, better than thine; and, therefore, leave off to persuade me further; I am his servant, and I will follow him.

APOL. Consider, again, when thou art in cool blood, what thou art like to meet with in the way that thou goest. Thou knowest that, for the most part, his servants come to an ill end, because they are transgressors against me and my ways. How many of them have been put to shameful deaths! and, besides, thou countest his service better than mine, whereas he never came yet from the place where he is to deliver any that served him out of their hands; but as for me, how many times, as all the world very well knows, have I delivered, either by power, or fraud, those that have faithfully served me, from him and his, though taken by them; and so I will deliver thee.

CHR. His forbearing at present to deliver them is on purpose to try their love, whether they will cleave to him to the end; and as for the ill end thou sayest they come to, that is most glorious in their account; for, for present deliverance, they do not much expect it, for they stay for their glory, and then they shall have it when their Prince comes in his and the glory of the angels.

APOL. Thou hast already been unfaithful in thy service to him; and how dost thou think to receive wages of him?

CHR. Wherein, O Apollyon! have I been unfaithful to him?

APOL. Thou didst faint at first setting out, when thou wast almost choked in the Gulf of Despond; thou didst attempt wrong ways to be rid of thy burden, whereas thou shouldst have stayed till thy Prince had taken it off; thou didst sinfully sleep and lose thy choice thing; thou wast, also, almost persuaded to go back at the sight of the lions; and when thou talkest of thy journey, and of what thou hast heard and seen, thou art inwardly desirous of vain-glory in all that thou sayest or doest.

CHR. All this is true, and much more which thou hast left out; but the Prince whom I serve and honour is merciful, and ready to forgive; but, besides, these infirmities possessed me in thy country, for there I sucked them in; and I have groaned under them, been sorry for them, and have obtained pardon of my Prince.

APOL. Then Apollyon broke out into a grievous rage, saying, I am an enemy to this Prince; I hate his person, his laws, and people; I am come out on purpose to withstand thee.

CHR. Apollyon, beware what you do; for I am in the King's highway, the way of holiness; therefore take heed to yourself.

APOL. Then Apollyon straddled quite over the whole breadth of the way, and said, I am void of fear in this matter: prepare thyself to die; for I swear by my infernal den, that thou shalt go no further; here will I spill thy soul.

Then did Christian draw, for he saw it was time to bestir him; and Apollyon as fast made at him, throwing darts as thick as hail; by the which, notwithstanding all that Christian could do to avoid it, Apollyon wounded him in his head, his hand, and foot. This made Christian give a little back; Apollyon, therefore, followed his work amain, and Christian again took courage, and resisted as manfully as he could. This sore combat lasted for above half a day, even till Christian was almost quite spent; for you must know that Christian, by reason of his wounds, must needs grow weaker and weaker.

Then Apollyon, espying his opportunity, began to gather up close to Christian, and wrestling with him, gave him a dreadful fall; and with that Christian's sword flew out of his hand. Then said Apollyon, I am sure of thee now. And with that he had almost pressed him to death, so that Christian began to despair of life; but as God would have it, while Apollyon was fetching of his last blow, thereby to make a full end of this good man, Christian nimbly stretched out his hand for his sword, and caught it, saying, "Rejoice not against me, O mine enemy; when I fall I shall arise" [Micah 7:8];

Christian's victory over Apollyon

and with that gave him a deadly thrust, which made him give back, as one that had received his mortal wound. Christian perceiving that, made at him again, saying, "Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us". [Rom. 8:37] And with that Apollyon spread forth his dragon's wings, and sped him away, that Christian for a season saw him no more. [James 4:7]

In this combat no man can imagine, unless he had seen and heard as I did, what yelling and hideous roaring Apollyon made all the time of the fight--he spake like a dragon; and, on the other side, what sighs and groans burst from Christian's heart. I never saw him all the while give so much as one pleasant look, till he perceived he had wounded Apollyon with his two-edged sword; then, indeed, he did smile, and look upward; but it was the dreadfullest sight that ever I saw.

A more unequal match can hardly be,--CHRISTIAN must fight an Angel; but you see,
The valiant man by handling sword and shield...
...Doth make him, tho a Dragon, quit the field!" - John Bunyan

And Christian defeats the devil by use of the sword... Which is the word of God...

Then Apollyon, espying his opportunity, began to gather up close to Christian, and wrestling with him, gave him a dreadful fall; and with that Christian's sword flew out of his hand. Then said Apollyon, I am sure of thee now. And with that he had almost pressed him to death, so that Christian began to despair of life; but as God would have it, while Apollyon was fetching of his last blow, thereby to make a full end of this good man, Christian nimbly stretched out his hand for his sword, and caught it, saying, "Rejoice not against me, O mine enemy; when I fall I shall arise" [Micah 7:8];

Christian's victory over Apollyon

and with that gave him a deadly thrust, which made him give back, as one that had received his mortal wound. Christian perceiving that, made at him again, saying, "Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us". [Rom. 8:37] And with that Apollyon spread forth his dragon's wings, and sped him away, that Christian for a season saw him no more. [James 4:7]


Christian gives thanks after his battle with Apollyon...

So when the battle was over, Christian said, "I will here give thanks to him that delivered me out of the mouth of the lion, to him that did help me against Apollyon." And so he did, saying--

Great Beelzebub, the captain of this fiend,
Design'd my ruin; therefore to this end
He sent him harness'd out: and he with rage
That hellish was, did fiercely me engage.
But blessed Michael helped me, and I,
By dint of sword, did quickly make him fly.
Therefore to him let me give lasting praise,
And thank and bless his holy name always.

 

[Avid]

Once we deal with the issue of what this sin is, and what it means to commit it, we have the question of all these TEMPTATIONS to commit it, and the accusations of the devil that we have committed it. The person who has this, and is at all concerned about his soul, goes to the LORD in humility, and prayerfully seeks understanding, and any appropriate forgiveness.

As the Character, Christian, in that book is going through the valley of humiliation, a devil sneaks up from behind, and whispers an unclean thought to him. Christian is greatly disturbed, because he thought these things had proceeded from his own heart.

Such is the temptation of the devil, and it is designed to hinder, trip, or cause the Christian to fall.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Missed my buddy Avid a bit so I thought I'd see what he's up to....
read some of the posts here, was intending to stay out of this one because I think people overcomplicate it....but I'll weigh in on it anyways since I paid enough of my time trying to understand some of the posters here.....

The unpardonable sin is the one a person is condemned to Hell for. Jesus said blasphemy of the Holy Ghost is the only thing that cannot be forgiven. People try to apply that saying to far too many topics and try to explain it in far too many ways. Why not just leave it as Jesus said?

I've seen people stand up and say bizarre things and act in bizarre ways and then when questioned with the least bit of skepticism they accuse the questioner of blaspheming the Holy Ghost as they insist that what they are saying or doing is from God, so you are condemned to Hell because you questioned them.

I do not fully understand "blasphemy of the Holy Ghost", but I do understand that Jesus spoke of this in a very limited context narrowly directed at a few people in direct response to the false accusations they made against Jesus.

Avid quoted somebody who said something about twisting theories to fit doctrine rather than letting doctrine twist theories to straighten out those theories. People go way to far in theories trying to explain the unpardonable sin. The Bible has enough to say about how to be saved and how a person can be so hardened against God, like Pharaoh was, that they will never be saved regardless of the fact that they could be saved if they would only repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. Most people will not be saved, and the unpardonable sin is the one by which they are forever condemned to Hell.... I suppose all of those people will be held guilty for blaspheming the Holy Ghost since that is the only sin, according to Jesus, which cannot be forgiven and people in Hell cannot be forgiven....but there I go speculating more than I think is necessary.

If anybody reading this is not absolutely sure their sins are forgiven and they are going to heaven, they either need to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved or they need to believe God's word to be assured that they are saved. Don't let the many theories surrounding the unpardonable sin keep you confused if you feel confused about it.

 

[Avid]

My friend, I answered your questions...you are avoiding mine...

OK, I think I see what questions you are referring to... (a different post than I was searching.)

I did not understand why the aspect of Jesus being the Son of David changed anything about what He said in condemning these people.

BTW, those Pharisees had not died in their sins when Jesus pronounced their eternal doom. They lived a while after that, but were not going to find a place of repentance - they had crossed a line with God, and there was no returning from that.

This is where so many are getting sidetracked. They have their beliefs, and they believe them. They believe that anyone can "get saved" and "accept Christ" any old time, as long as they have not yet died in their sins. This idea must refuse and reject the very words of Christ on the subject.

 

[Avid]

... The unpardonable sin is the one a person is condemned to Hell for. Jesus said blasphemy of the Holy Ghost is the only thing that cannot be forgiven...

Thanks for joining in. Please, do not take personally my rant in this short sermon about this subject. It is simply addressing the problems just about everyone here has had taking Jesus Christ at His word.

EVERY SIN that is not under the blood of Christ will be brought to light in the great judgment. EVERY SIN from stealing candy from your little sister at 7, to contemplating adultery in your 40's, to slighting the word of God in your 80's will be exposed if we have not found forgiveness in this life before the LORD.

Matthew 12
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
​

If we think, "I am saved, so God will not hold me accountable for these things," we may be under the warnings of Hebrews Chapters 4 and 10 on the subject.

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Heb.10:13) We have been treated to how God would not allow a "saved" person to commit the Unpardonable Sin. Why have we not, instead, heard, "Oh, LORD, preserve me and keep me so I NEVER do such a thing to dishonor thee!"

... Most people will not be saved, and the unpardonable sin is the one by which they are forever condemned to Hell.... I suppose all of those people will be held guilty for blaspheming the Holy Ghost since that is the only sin, according to Jesus, which cannot be forgiven and people in Hell cannot be forgiven....but there I go speculating more than I think is necessary...

It is erroneous to say such a thing as this. EVERY SIN is deadly. If we cannot stop doing what we KNOW is wrong, how can we confidently say we will not commit the ONE THING from which there is no return, regardless of how we might beg God? God can keep us from this one sin, but cannot keep us from other sin???

The LORD Jesus Christ was tempted by the devil, and by so many of the people "who are taken captive by him at his will." (II Tim.2:26) These Pharisees were hardened against God by their continuous sinning against His law, while standing in the place to proclaim and enforce it!!! These days, ministers and other offices of churches think they deserve respect that too many have not earned. What respect do they want? The truly deserve to be held in high regard if they preach God's truth from God's word. However, if they are adulterating it with the thoughts of men, and words they got from "who knows where?" outside of the truth of the scripture, they are closer to these Pharisees than most people these days.

Whatever makes Christ's Gospel palatable to the carnal nature does this by mixtures that are adulterations.
Arthur T. Pierson (1837−1911)
​

Let us beware that we are not so interested in making the "Gospel" palatable to fleshy people of the world that we replace sound doctrines with the vain imaginations of men.

 

[Avid]

... judas never ate the fruit, he tasted it, He new Jesus was God and yet rejected him any way and Heaven. He knew what he was doing, so he could never be saved after that and he never was saved...

This does not fall under the same category as the Unpardonable Sin. This was, however, a line Judas Iscariot crossed that he knew there was no returning from. This is what John Bunyan meant when he said, "THE DAY OF GRACE MAY BE PAST WITH HIM LONG BEFORE HIS LIFE IS ENDED;"

Judas Iscariot knew he was condemned, and thus realized there was no return. He did not need to wait till his death to have gone too far. He had done that already. That is when he ended it all.

Matthew 27
3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.​

We are discussing how the Pharisees INTENDED to insult and blaspheme the Son of God (Matt.12:32) but instead, they blasphemed the Holy Ghost.

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the Earth. Jesus Christ was here as our Savior, but he is LORD of Lords. As Creator (John.1,) Jesus spoke, and the worlds came into existence. How did that happen? The Holy Spirit of God performed what the Creator spoke. (Gen.1:2) Yes, God created the heavens and the Earth. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost did that.

Now, we see the Pharisees trying to put themselves above the law and eventually, put themselves above God. They see Jesus, but the scripture is clear that it was the Holy Ghost performing these things. They try to put themselves above Jesus Christ, the Son of the Almighty God, and God could have forgiven that, as He did with the Apostle Paul... This was DIFFERENT. These people went too far, and spoke against the Holy Ghost, who they had no reason to be against. The Holy Ghost had performed a miracle as the Son of God spoke it.

This miracle was not odious to them, but the presence of our LORD Jesus Christ was. They intended to blaspheme Jesus, but directed their sinful speech toward the Holy Ghost. Jesus pronounced their doom right then and there. They did not need to wait to hear this from Him at the Great White Throne Judgment (though they will,) but they heard it from the Judge right then, and it was in effect immediately. They did not need to wait till their death to have gone too far. They had done that already. These men were condemned at that moment.

 

[Skala]

Hello my fellow Believers,

My odd and random brain got me thinking a few days ago, about the Unpardonable Sin.and I've been wrestling the thought to the point that I'm becoming annoyed and agitated. So any insight is much appreciated.

It is my understanding (correct me if wrong) that, the Unpardonable Sin is saying God's Spirit (The Holy Spirit) is evil and of satan.

Well I got onto this thread talking about the Gifts of The Holy Spirit and the people using them. And I remembered back when I was around 7-8 I used to see youtube videos of people claiming to have these gifts. When I would see them I remember thinking to myself "That guys a fake" I'm not sure I said he was evil, but I might have. Like, maybe I said along the lines of,"He's a fake, and they're actors. And if anything he might be using evil powers".

See my dilemma? If I knew any of them were real Believers I wouldn't even consider the possibility of them using evil powers. But I'm wondering if in questioning them, I Blasphemed The Holy Spirit.

Because, if any of them were truly saved, and I said they may or may not be using evil powers (even though I doubted they where real Believers) am I not saying the same thing the pharrisies said about Jesus? Or am I missing something? Maybe this is a different situation? I'm not sure...

I honestly don't think I have Blasphemed though... I Love God. Repent of my sins, and have been seeing improvements in my life that I don't think one who has committed the Unpardonable Sin would see.

But it has been bugging me so i decided to write about it and get my Brothers' opinions, so any opinions are welcome.

God Bless!
-The Current Lowest Servant

I don't think you can commit the unpardonable sin. The pharisees did it because they rejected clear evidence that Jesus was divine. They witnessed with their own eyes the miracles he did, but were so determined to reject Him that they had no choice but to conclude his power was from satan.

However, when you question faith healers and such I don't think that is the same thing.

For example, when you question faith healers, you are not questioning whether Jesus is God or empowered by the devil. You are not rejecting Jesus. You are not looking for reasons to deny that He is the Messiah, the way the Pharisees were.

Also, if faith healers could heal, they would be going up and down the halls of hospitals. It is curious that faith healing only happens in places (ie, certain charismatic churches) where it is expected to be seen. But I digress.

I have opinions on the gifts, but suffice it to say, I've never seen anyone prove that they have received the gifts by allowing venomous snakes to strike them or drinking a gallon of rat poison. (remember, being immune to poison is one of the gifts). That one is always conveniently left out.

 

[MWood]

Remember, Jesus said that they could blaspheme Himself and God and be forgiven. But if they blaspheme the Holy Ghost they would never be forgiven.

The only place that I can remember the Holy Ghost being blasphemed is when they stoned Stephen to death. When Stephen started to speak he was filled with the Holy Ghost. And when they looked upon him, His face was shining as thou it were the face of an angel. This they knew that he was filled with the Holy Ghost. But they stoned him anyway. They blasphemed the Holy Ghost. They rejected God back in 1Samuel, they rejected Jesus when they hung Him on the Cross, They rejected the Holy Ghost when they stoned Stephen. So the Nation of Israel and all that God had given them and promised them, has been set aside until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

[Dan61861]

Remember, Jesus said that they could blaspheme Himself and God and be forgiven. But if they blaspheme the Holy Ghost they would never be forgiven.

The only place that I can remember the Holy Ghost being blasphemed is when they stoned Stephen to death. When Stephen started to speak he was filled with the Holy Ghost. And when they looked upon him, His face was shining as thou it were the face of an angel. This they knew that he was filled with the Holy Ghost. But they stoned him anyway. They blasphemed the Holy Ghost. They rejected God back in 1Samuel, they rejected Jesus when they hung Him on the Cross, They rejected the Holy Ghost when they stoned Stephen. So the Nation of Israel and all that God had given them and promised them, has been set aside until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

May I ask, if this is true. How did Paul come to Christ? His hands were dirty, concerning Stephen.

In Christ
Daniel

 

[MWood]

May I ask, if this is true. How did Paul come to Christ? His hands were dirty, concerning Stephen.

In Christ
Daniel

His hands were dirty before Stephen. He wasted the Church of God. He came to Christ because he was a Pharisee of Pharisees. He knew and understood the Old Scriptures and Prophets writings better than they did. He just didn't believe that Jesus was the promised Messiah until Jesus came to him on the road to Damascus and told him who He was. Then Paul believed.

 

[twob4me]

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