My Apple Challenge III

I cannot stop but ask: what are you trying to achive with these threads?

AV1611VET is trying to do a service for unbelievers, he is doing his best (albeit in a roundabout way)
to warn them of the consequences of too much religion, showing that if they are not very careful indeed,
they could end up exactly like him, a stranger to reality, in denial, and blinkered.

He should be applauded, because he must know he does more damage than good for creationism.
instead of encouraging converts, he repels them, a roll model for creationism he aint.

Unless I have it completely wrong, and TOTAL stupidity of the human race is the ultimate aim of all creationists,
the more I think about it, that could very well be what they are aiming for.
 
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FishFace

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Your friend brings you an apple that was created ex nihilo into the palm of his hand.

What scientific evidence would satisfy this fact?

None.

Now, The same friend brings you another apple which grew on a tree. He claims it was created ex nihilo in the palm of his hand.

What scientific evidence would satisfy this fact?
 
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coyoteBR

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- some genetic testing to see if the apple has any reseamblance with the apples ordinally bought in the market around such friend;

- Someone who saw the alleged phenomena and described it in details AND the opinion of a professional magician that such could not be a trick;

- capacity of such person to perform such fact again, in a controled enviroment (no mirrors, fast hands movements, etc);

- some mental exam,ination of such friend, to prove he's not cu-ckoo, would also be welcomed;

- that's what I can think of in less than a minute. Your point being...?
 
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Psudopod

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To be honest, I can't think of anything that would completely convince me. Without a method of creating apples ex-nihilo, no previous evidece of anything being created like this, and the fact that an ex-nihilo apple can be exactly like a normal one, I don't think there is any scientific evidence that could exist that would convince me. If the apple could not have grown on a tree - ie no stem, no calyx, no seeds etc, then I'd certain accept there was something unique about it, but may be other ways of generating apples that way.

However, you do understand why people ask for evidence of creationism? It's becuase other people say they have it. Not you, we all know and accept that you don't think there is any evidence the one time creation event could leave, and that makes you better than most of the YECs who come in here and say they can demonstrate the earth is only 6000 years old and there was a flood 4000 years ago.

The problem you, personally, are left with is why did the one time creation event 6000 years ago leave 13.7 billion years of history? And that's not really a scientific question, its a theological one.
 
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TheManeki

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AV seems to be suffering from a case of exegetical panic.

Fred Clark said:
"We see through a glass, darkly," St. Paul said, warning against the temptation to chase the will-o'-the-wisp of certainty. But American evangelicalism is largely based on the idea that certainty is not only possible, but necessary. Mandatory, even. This certainty can be achieved thanks to the one-legged stool of the Evangelical Unilateral.

That's a made-up term, but it describes something real. It's a play on the "Wesleyan Quadrilateral" -- an approach to theological thinking that relies on the four foundations of scripture, tradition/community, reason and experience.

The evangelical approach to theological thinking is exactly like this Wesleyan method, except it doesn't include tradition or community. Or reason. Or experience. All of those things are viewed, instead, as potentially corrosive threats to the pure certainty offered by scripture alone -- by the unambiguous and self-evident, prima facie "literal" meaning of scripture. Such an approach requires not only that the text itself be pure, accessible, infallible, inerrant and impervious to misinterpretation but also that the reader of the text be pure, insightful, infallible, inerrant and incapable of misinterpretation. It requires that the reader be some kind of Platonic ideal, a blank slate uninfluenced by culture, language, intellect or life experience. That is, of course, impossible. The point here, however, is not to evaluate or criticize this evangelical epistemology, or to point out all the ways in which it does not and cannot work, but rather to acknowledge descriptively that this is how American evangelical Christians attempt to view the world...

But for an evangelical relying on the Unilateral, weighing your own experience against the purportedly crystal clear teachings of scripture is verboten. Something's gotta give and that something, in this case, is their own experience, conscience and instincts. That's when the panic-inducing cognitive dissonance kicks in and fight-or-flight takes over. And then anything could happen.

The stakes here are higher than you may appreciate -- their faith, and thus also their sense of identity, is on the line. The Unilateral requires a faith that is so inflexible it becomes brittle -- it can never bend, only break. The crisis occurring for them is much like the one that happened to my college friend in Jericho -- the young-earth creationist who was confronted with the ruins of a neolithic wall thousands of years older than his God...

That kind of crisis can result in someone chucking their faith entirely. Or they may try to reassert that certainty even more forcefully...
 
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Gremlins

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Your friend brings you an apple that was created ex nihilo into the palm of his hand.

What scientific evidence would satisfy this fact?
I would believe him if he could create at least 3 more apples ex nihilo in control conditions.

But really your analogy isn't that good. A better one would be:

Your friend picks an apple from a tree, then gives you a bronze age book which tells you it was created ex nihilo. Do you believe your own senses, or the book?
 
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Skaloop

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Your friend brings you an apple that was created ex nihilo into the palm of his hand.

What scientific evidence would satisfy this fact?

A measurement of mass/energy present in the universe before and after the creation of the apple, with an increase corresponding exactly to the mass/energy of the apple.

Of course, that sort of evidence would be impossible to produce, but theoretically it would satisfy that fact.
 
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AintNoMonkey

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Your friend brings you an apple that was created ex nihilo into the palm of his hand.

What scientific evidence would satisfy this fact?

There is none, and, conveniently, there doesn't need to be any because this does not happen.

But to humor you, if my friend did bring me an apple, that he CLAIMED to be created ex nihilo, I would probably go ahead and slice it up, slather it with peanut butter, and chow down.

Unless it was a granny smith, in which case you can replace the peanut butter with cinnamon sugar.
 
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Skaloop

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I would believe him if he could create at least 3 more apples ex nihilo in control conditions.

Now, now; the original challenge says nothing about the friend creating the apple, just that it was created into his hand.
 
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Corey

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Your friend brings you an apple that was created ex nihilo into the palm of his hand.

What scientific evidence would satisfy this fact?

Hmm...well. If it didn't correspond to the C12/C14 ratios found in other apples and in the general area, it'd be interesting.
 
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VirOptimus

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Your friend brings you an apple that was created ex nihilo into the palm of his hand.

What scientific evidence would satisfy this fact?
Thats impossible as ex nihilo creation is unscientific and scientific evidence for it is therefore a contradiction in terms.
 
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Your friend brings you an apple that was created ex nihilo into the palm of his hand.

What scientific evidence would satisfy this fact?

None, that's the point. But simply because you can construct this sentence in a gramatically correct way does not mean it is a rational and realistic description of reality, worthy of living as if it were true.

"God created a 14 billion year old universe 6,000 years ago" sure sounds like a lot of fun, but its a meaningless phrase that explains nothing.
 
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sbvera13

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Actually, there could be evidence, if the friend had been bright enough to submit to scientifically controlled observation at the moment of creation. Since he did not, and he expects us to take only his word, we can reasonably assume that his intention is decieve us.
 
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Drekkan85

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But it could if God so ordained it, right?

Out of all the answers, out of all the points made about the silliness of the question, what he'd have to do to prove it was created, all of the challenges... this is your response?
 
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ragarth

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I'm going with 'reproducibility in a controlled environment' for 1000, Alex. At the very least I want to see him do it with his sleeves rolled up. :)

I disagree with the above that such an occurrence is beyond scientific measurement. If the friend can produce apples from nothing with regularity, then it certainly can be put to rigorous testing, including high speed cameras, sound measurements (spontaneous granny smithism would probably create a sonic boom as the air molecules are displaced), and expert observation are just a few possible ways of scientifically measuring such an occurrence. ultimately, there's no difference between a human spontaneously creating apples and an altar doing the same as far as scientific observation and analysis go.

If, on the other hand, this friend says "SHAZAM" every time he does it, there's no proving this and he should be classified as an ex nihilo nigerian scammer.
 
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