Matthew 24 and the Seven Seals
- Thread starter Just The Facts
- Start date
Hi DFW
Rev 11 says they are the Two Olive Trees so 12,000 from each of the Tribes representing the 2 Olive Trees. But it also says they are Two Candlesticks so that means two churches So the 144,000 are all descendants of the 12 Tribes and are also members of 2 of the 10 Churches.
Now as I have been saying Jesus tells us the falling away happened after the persecution by the nations. IE After 312AD Interpreter has just demonstrated the exact false doctrine I am talking about.
Constantine was a murderous man who had his own son and wife murdered. He worshipped the sun God and Mithras till his death bed when he finally repented and was baptised. Just so you know Mithras calibration day was December 25th. He is the Iranian version for Baal. HE was considered the God of Soldiers the God of Armies and Forces. The worship of Mithras was new to Rome it was not the God of their fathers. Mithras had been brought to Rome in a 3 month precession by I believe it was Emperor Probus in 276AD in which he claimed his God of War a Forces would take over Rome and then from there the World.
This is the kicker Constantine was baptised by a Gnostic Bishop into the Gnostic Faith in opposition to everything stated and made LAW at his council at Nicaea. The Bishop was Eusebius of Nicomedia who had denied the Nicene Creed and refused to sign it.
Christian Love had indeed Turned Cold. Just as Jesus said many false teacher Hijacked Christianity and changed it. Changed it from what it had been and stood for the first 200 years into a machine for war and death.
"In this sign you shall conquer"
Does that sound like Something Jesus would say
Or does it Sound like something the God of War and Forces would say.
In the desert the Devil came to Jesus and offered him the Roman Empire if he would follow Satan, Jesus said get behind me Satan. 300 years Later after hundreds of years of persecution Satan came to the Bishops and said I will give you control over the Roman Empire if you only follow me. Many of The Bishops of the 4th century said yes give us power and Honour. The ones who refused were branded heretics some were murdered like Bishop George who was dragged from the church at Alexandria and murdered other were put to death. Starting with Bishop Priscillian in 384BC who was burned alive along with four other priests.
I will post the time line tomorrow AM
Rev 11 says they are the Two Olive Trees so 12,000 from each of the Tribes representing the 2 Olive Trees. But it also says they are Two Candlesticks so that means two churches So the 144,000 are all descendants of the 12 Tribes and are also members of 2 of the 10 Churches.
Now as I have been saying Jesus tells us the falling away happened after the persecution by the nations. IE After 312AD Interpreter has just demonstrated the exact false doctrine I am talking about.
Constantine was a murderous man who had his own son and wife murdered. He worshipped the sun God and Mithras till his death bed when he finally repented and was baptised. Just so you know Mithras calibration day was December 25th. He is the Iranian version for Baal. HE was considered the God of Soldiers the God of Armies and Forces. The worship of Mithras was new to Rome it was not the God of their fathers. Mithras had been brought to Rome in a 3 month precession by I believe it was Emperor Probus in 276AD in which he claimed his God of War a Forces would take over Rome and then from there the World.
This is the kicker Constantine was baptised by a Gnostic Bishop into the Gnostic Faith in opposition to everything stated and made LAW at his council at Nicaea. The Bishop was Eusebius of Nicomedia who had denied the Nicene Creed and refused to sign it.
Christian Love had indeed Turned Cold. Just as Jesus said many false teacher Hijacked Christianity and changed it. Changed it from what it had been and stood for the first 200 years into a machine for war and death.
"In this sign you shall conquer"
Does that sound like Something Jesus would say
Or does it Sound like something the God of War and Forces would say.
In the desert the Devil came to Jesus and offered him the Roman Empire if he would follow Satan, Jesus said get behind me Satan. 300 years Later after hundreds of years of persecution Satan came to the Bishops and said I will give you control over the Roman Empire if you only follow me. Many of The Bishops of the 4th century said yes give us power and Honour. The ones who refused were branded heretics some were murdered like Bishop George who was dragged from the church at Alexandria and murdered other were put to death. Starting with Bishop Priscillian in 384BC who was burned alive along with four other priests.
I will post the time line tomorrow AM
Last edited:
Upvote
0
dfw69
Pre-Tribulation Pre- False Messianic Age
- Nov 16, 2011
- 8,273
- 826
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
That's cool
I think it's an assumption the 144000 being the 2 olive trees and two candlesticks because it does not say that when speaking of the 144000... They could be what it says they are... Tribes of Israel .. Not Gentiles
They are the manchild caught up to heaven so they don't die .. They are firstfruits of Israel that don't die
The two olive trees and two candlesticks are Enoch and Elijah ... They are candlestick because they shine light .. Truth.. They don't hide their lamps under the bed but reveal... They are Christians ... They were seen in the Old Testament before god...they are olive trees because they a part of the kingdom of god... They may even be Israelites ..
The 144000 appear before the beast... The two witnesses appear after the beast
The two witnesses die in Jerusalem ... Do you believe the144000 will die in Jerusalem ?
Upvote
0
Hi DFW
Quote
I think it's an assumption the 144000 being the 2 olive trees and two candlesticks because it does not say that when speaking of the 144000... They could be what it says they are... Tribes of Israel .. Not Gentiles
End Quote
Well it is not an assumption it is what God tells these symbols mean. In The OT In The NT
I never said they where Gentile....................... not once.
You seem to be stuck in the dogma that only Jews can be of the Tribes. Jews are only 1 tribe so only 12,000 will be Jews.
You also seem to be stuck in the dogma they have to be in Israel where does it say that.
You are also stuck in the dogma they have to start off as Jewish in faith. It doesn't say that. It says they follow Jesus that makes them Christian.
You also seem to be stuck in the Dogma that Jews represent all the tribes THEY DO NOT.....Even the Jews in modern Israel are looking for the lost tribes
You seem to be ignoring the fact that millions and millions of Jews converted to Christianity over the centuries and are still just as much descendants of the tribes as the stubborn ones that refuse to believe the truth. Why does the 12,000 Jews have to be from the stubborn non believers
You are making so many assumptions it is not the word of God it is the assumptions of man.
Quote
The two olive trees and two candlesticks are Enoch and Elijah ... They are candlestick because they shine light .. Truth.. They don't hide their lamps under the bed but reveal... They are Christians ... They were seen in the Old Testament before god...they are olive trees because they a part of the kingdom of god... They may even be Israelites ..
End Quote
This is exactly what I am talking about. You say the Candlesticks are Two long gone prophets because candlesticks shine light....You do all of this without a single verse to back it.
I understand you do not trust Jesus very plain words.
RV:1:20: The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
here is the difference between what I am saying and what you are saying.
I am saying the Bible says this symbol means this and show the verse.
You are saying I THINK that these symbols mean this BECAUSE I Think.
You are espousing a doctrine of men. I am saying Jesus says it means this.
Can you not see how wrong what you are doing is??????
Quote
The two witnesses appear after the beast
End Quote
No They do not........... they are killed by the Beast when he rises out of the Pit. Follow the course of events.
7: And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
It does not say the Beast that Ascended it says ascendsmeaning the Beast Ascends out of the pit a kills them right away..
Think about this the Beast does not get out of the Pit till the fifth trumpet.
The Witnesses control ALL THE PLAGUES not Some of the Plagues but ALL PLAGUES
6: These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
The Witnesses are there from Trumpet ONE..... the plagues of the first five Trumpets are released by them just as the seven bowls are released by them. AND YES the trumpets are plagues
Rv:9:20: And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
You seem to be forgetting God's promise
Amos:3:7: Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
God is merciful always wanting people to come to repentance. He will not unleash death and destruction on Mankind without first telling everyone that it is coming. The purpose of Two Witnesses is to warn mankind call for repentance and it is Because God judges no one without the word of two witnesses. They testify and the call to repent. If you look at the first four trumpets you will see God is always willing to stop if mankind would repent. The three woes are the last three trumpets of plagues.
Quote
The two witnesses die in Jerusalem ... Do you believe the144000 will die in Jerusalem ?
End Quote
You do not seem to understand this will be a repeat of Pentecost on. Jesus tells us it will be a repeat. Pentecost to the end of the persecutions was the first fruits of the early rain. the 144,000 firstfruitson to the persecution by the Beast is the latter rain.
I believe that the 144,000 will be sent out two by two just as it was in the early rain. I think that is very likely they will all be brought to Jerusalem. I believe they will be put on trial and put to death in a kind of inquisition. Whether the two at Jerusalem represent all and the others are killed elsewhere I can not say because we are not told that.. The only thing we can say 100% for sure is that Two Olive Trees means the two houses of the 12 tribes, and that two candle sticks means two churches. We can say this with 100% certainty because Scripture says so in very plain and direct language.
Any doctrine that denies the very plain words of Jesus is the Doctrine of Demons. and those are Just The Facts
Quote
I think it's an assumption the 144000 being the 2 olive trees and two candlesticks because it does not say that when speaking of the 144000... They could be what it says they are... Tribes of Israel .. Not Gentiles
End Quote
Well it is not an assumption it is what God tells these symbols mean. In The OT In The NT
I never said they where Gentile....................... not once.
You seem to be stuck in the dogma that only Jews can be of the Tribes. Jews are only 1 tribe so only 12,000 will be Jews.
You also seem to be stuck in the dogma they have to be in Israel where does it say that.
You are also stuck in the dogma they have to start off as Jewish in faith. It doesn't say that. It says they follow Jesus that makes them Christian.
You also seem to be stuck in the Dogma that Jews represent all the tribes THEY DO NOT.....Even the Jews in modern Israel are looking for the lost tribes
You seem to be ignoring the fact that millions and millions of Jews converted to Christianity over the centuries and are still just as much descendants of the tribes as the stubborn ones that refuse to believe the truth. Why does the 12,000 Jews have to be from the stubborn non believers
You are making so many assumptions it is not the word of God it is the assumptions of man.
Quote
The two olive trees and two candlesticks are Enoch and Elijah ... They are candlestick because they shine light .. Truth.. They don't hide their lamps under the bed but reveal... They are Christians ... They were seen in the Old Testament before god...they are olive trees because they a part of the kingdom of god... They may even be Israelites ..
End Quote
This is exactly what I am talking about. You say the Candlesticks are Two long gone prophets because candlesticks shine light....You do all of this without a single verse to back it.
I understand you do not trust Jesus very plain words.
RV:1:20: The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
here is the difference between what I am saying and what you are saying.
I am saying the Bible says this symbol means this and show the verse.
You are saying I THINK that these symbols mean this BECAUSE I Think.
You are espousing a doctrine of men. I am saying Jesus says it means this.
Can you not see how wrong what you are doing is??????
Quote
The two witnesses appear after the beast
End Quote
No They do not........... they are killed by the Beast when he rises out of the Pit. Follow the course of events.
7: And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
It does not say the Beast that Ascended it says ascendsmeaning the Beast Ascends out of the pit a kills them right away..
Think about this the Beast does not get out of the Pit till the fifth trumpet.
The Witnesses control ALL THE PLAGUES not Some of the Plagues but ALL PLAGUES
6: These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
The Witnesses are there from Trumpet ONE..... the plagues of the first five Trumpets are released by them just as the seven bowls are released by them. AND YES the trumpets are plagues
Rv:9:20: And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
You seem to be forgetting God's promise
Amos:3:7: Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
God is merciful always wanting people to come to repentance. He will not unleash death and destruction on Mankind without first telling everyone that it is coming. The purpose of Two Witnesses is to warn mankind call for repentance and it is Because God judges no one without the word of two witnesses. They testify and the call to repent. If you look at the first four trumpets you will see God is always willing to stop if mankind would repent. The three woes are the last three trumpets of plagues.
Quote
The two witnesses die in Jerusalem ... Do you believe the144000 will die in Jerusalem ?
End Quote
You do not seem to understand this will be a repeat of Pentecost on. Jesus tells us it will be a repeat. Pentecost to the end of the persecutions was the first fruits of the early rain. the 144,000 firstfruitson to the persecution by the Beast is the latter rain.
I believe that the 144,000 will be sent out two by two just as it was in the early rain. I think that is very likely they will all be brought to Jerusalem. I believe they will be put on trial and put to death in a kind of inquisition. Whether the two at Jerusalem represent all and the others are killed elsewhere I can not say because we are not told that.. The only thing we can say 100% for sure is that Two Olive Trees means the two houses of the 12 tribes, and that two candle sticks means two churches. We can say this with 100% certainty because Scripture says so in very plain and direct language.
Any doctrine that denies the very plain words of Jesus is the Doctrine of Demons. and those are Just The Facts
Upvote
0
I don't know why you poo poo Constantine. The first Christian ruler was declared a saint, and not only a saint, but a saint equal to the apostles, the highest honor the Church can bestow. The day the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds is known as the turning point in history because ever since that day, Christian nations have been the dominant force on earth. And Christians will rule over the earth to the end. The 4th horseman (the US) now polices the earth for Jesus. Our weapons bring hell and death to His enemies.
Upvote
0
It's very close. First, the Battle of Ar Mageddon, which began on 9/11 when the Euphrates was dry, must continue a little while, until the last head of the Satanic beast of the Revelation is so soundly defeated that Satan is not heard from again for a thousand years. Then 24 Christian thrones can rule the earth in peace for a thousand years. The 24 thrones exist now.
Upvote
0
Hello Inter
Quote
I don't know why you poo poo Constantine. The first Christian ruler was declared a saint, and not only a saint, but a saint equal to the apostles, the highest honor the Church can bestow. The day the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds is known as the turning point in history because ever since that day, Christian nations have been the dominant force on earth. And Christians will rule over the earth to the end. The 4th horseman (the US) now polices the earth for Jesus. Our weapons bring hell and death to His enemies.
End Quote
All I can say is WOW. Do You Understand yet DWF. Can you see what Jesus said was true.
There are two trains of thought that came up in the fourth century. One is the Dan 11 37-40 is about Antiochus Epiphanies. The other thought which was created by Darby is that this is the future AC.
Both of these deny the flow of the chapter. Everyone agrees the first 20 verses cover literally 300+ years. yet the first crowd think the rest of everything is about Antiochus Epiphanies. the second crowd think it then jumps over 2000 years into the future passing by Jesus and the Saints the Roman Emperors and the creation of the Holy Roman Emperor.
starts at verse 33
33And those among the people who are wise shall make many understand, though they shall fall by sword and flame (only Christians Were burned), by captivity and plunder, for some days. 34When they fall, they shall receive a little help. (the Holy Spirit The helper) And many shall join themselves to them with flattery; (Jesus First Warning on the Mount in Matt 24:False Christians say Yes Jesus is lord) 35and some of those who are wise shall fall, to refine and to cleanse them and to make them white, (Rv: 6 only the Saints get the White Robes) until the time of the end, for it is yet for the time appointed.
Here is clearly depicted the Saints "to make them white" and the destruction of Jerusalem. We even have the tie in point to Jesus's prophecy of Matthew 24 for this must take place, but the end is not yet.
In Daniel 11: "until the time of the end, for it is yet for the time appointed". This is a clear reference by Jesus through Gabriel to a common point in prophecy. The destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple 70 AD is not the second coming of Jesus.
Now we have the next verses
36"And the king shall do according to his will; he shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He shall prosper till the indignation is accomplished; for what is determined shall be done. 37He shall give no heed to the gods of his fathers, or to the one beloved by women; he shall not give heed to any other god, for he shall magnify himself above all.
First they worship themselves above all :IE Caesar is Lord.
38He shall honour the god of fortresses instead of these a god whom his fathers did not know he shall honour with gold and silver, with precious stones and costly gifts. 39He shall deal with the strongest fortress by the help of a foreign god; those who acknowledge him he shall magnify with honour. He shall make them rulers over many and shall divide the land for a prize.
If it is one man(ie the Anti Christ) than he must be schizophrenic first he worships himself above all Gods, but then instead of them he worships the God of Fortresses or Forces a God brought to Rome in 272 AD a God the Roman Fathers did not know.
As we know this prophecy is moving through time at a fast pace, these seemingly confusing verses show the changing religious structure of Rome from 30AD to the second coming of Christ. First the Roman Emperors from Augustus to Constantine declare themselves to be Gods on Earth and demand that they be worshipped. They put themselves above the Gods of their Fathers(the Roman Gods Juno, Mars ect.) and pay no heed to the God of Women(the Nature or Wica Gods, Issis). Instead they demand that everyone worship them. All the martyrs of the Pagan Persecutions died for refusing to sacrifice, to and for the Emperor. In verse 38 we find ourselves in the period that Jesus describes in Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 the period between persecutions between the early rain and the latter rain. With a major change to the Roman Religious system (King of the North) about to take place. We are told that the King of the North will change his God to the God of Forces/Armies, and that with the help of this new God he will attack and defeat the mightiest of Fortresses (ie: Rome). He will then distribute the land as a prize and greatly honour those who acknowledge his position and belief.
Please pay attention to the colour coding in this paragraph and in the verses above.
The change in the King of the North(Rome) comes with Constantine who "converts" to the Christian Faith in 312AD after having a vision where he claimed a voice in the clouds said it was Jesus and told him that if he would change his God and attack Rome with this new God and new sign he would win the battle. Over the next few years he becomes sole Emperor and Constantine builds massive Churches Filled with Gold an Jewels.The Church declares him to be the greatest man since Christ. Some Catholic Bishops State that he will rule in heaven with Jesus. He elevates the status of Bishops and declares the Bishops to be "God's on Earth" Removes them from the burden of paying Taxes. He makes the Bishops rulers over the Empire by agreeing to do what ever the majority of Bishops pass as Cannons. He gives away literally hundreds of thousand of acres of Imperial land to the Catholic Church.
This new Religion of the Kings of the North (Roman Empire) will last until Christ second coming it will trample the Great Tribulation Saints and set up the Final abomination on the Temple Mount.
God has told us the major events that we need to know to show us the truth in advance as promised in Amos 3:
Quote
I don't know why you poo poo Constantine. The first Christian ruler was declared a saint, and not only a saint, but a saint equal to the apostles, the highest honor the Church can bestow. The day the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds is known as the turning point in history because ever since that day, Christian nations have been the dominant force on earth. And Christians will rule over the earth to the end. The 4th horseman (the US) now polices the earth for Jesus. Our weapons bring hell and death to His enemies.
End Quote
All I can say is WOW. Do You Understand yet DWF. Can you see what Jesus said was true.
There are two trains of thought that came up in the fourth century. One is the Dan 11 37-40 is about Antiochus Epiphanies. The other thought which was created by Darby is that this is the future AC.
Both of these deny the flow of the chapter. Everyone agrees the first 20 verses cover literally 300+ years. yet the first crowd think the rest of everything is about Antiochus Epiphanies. the second crowd think it then jumps over 2000 years into the future passing by Jesus and the Saints the Roman Emperors and the creation of the Holy Roman Emperor.
starts at verse 33
33And those among the people who are wise shall make many understand, though they shall fall by sword and flame (only Christians Were burned), by captivity and plunder, for some days. 34When they fall, they shall receive a little help. (the Holy Spirit The helper) And many shall join themselves to them with flattery; (Jesus First Warning on the Mount in Matt 24:False Christians say Yes Jesus is lord) 35and some of those who are wise shall fall, to refine and to cleanse them and to make them white, (Rv: 6 only the Saints get the White Robes) until the time of the end, for it is yet for the time appointed.
Here is clearly depicted the Saints "to make them white" and the destruction of Jerusalem. We even have the tie in point to Jesus's prophecy of Matthew 24 for this must take place, but the end is not yet.
In Daniel 11: "until the time of the end, for it is yet for the time appointed". This is a clear reference by Jesus through Gabriel to a common point in prophecy. The destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple 70 AD is not the second coming of Jesus.
Now we have the next verses
36"And the king shall do according to his will; he shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He shall prosper till the indignation is accomplished; for what is determined shall be done. 37He shall give no heed to the gods of his fathers, or to the one beloved by women; he shall not give heed to any other god, for he shall magnify himself above all.
First they worship themselves above all :IE Caesar is Lord.
38He shall honour the god of fortresses instead of these a god whom his fathers did not know he shall honour with gold and silver, with precious stones and costly gifts. 39He shall deal with the strongest fortress by the help of a foreign god; those who acknowledge him he shall magnify with honour. He shall make them rulers over many and shall divide the land for a prize.
If it is one man(ie the Anti Christ) than he must be schizophrenic first he worships himself above all Gods, but then instead of them he worships the God of Fortresses or Forces a God brought to Rome in 272 AD a God the Roman Fathers did not know.
As we know this prophecy is moving through time at a fast pace, these seemingly confusing verses show the changing religious structure of Rome from 30AD to the second coming of Christ. First the Roman Emperors from Augustus to Constantine declare themselves to be Gods on Earth and demand that they be worshipped. They put themselves above the Gods of their Fathers(the Roman Gods Juno, Mars ect.) and pay no heed to the God of Women(the Nature or Wica Gods, Issis). Instead they demand that everyone worship them. All the martyrs of the Pagan Persecutions died for refusing to sacrifice, to and for the Emperor. In verse 38 we find ourselves in the period that Jesus describes in Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 the period between persecutions between the early rain and the latter rain. With a major change to the Roman Religious system (King of the North) about to take place. We are told that the King of the North will change his God to the God of Forces/Armies, and that with the help of this new God he will attack and defeat the mightiest of Fortresses (ie: Rome). He will then distribute the land as a prize and greatly honour those who acknowledge his position and belief.
Please pay attention to the colour coding in this paragraph and in the verses above.
The change in the King of the North(Rome) comes with Constantine who "converts" to the Christian Faith in 312AD after having a vision where he claimed a voice in the clouds said it was Jesus and told him that if he would change his God and attack Rome with this new God and new sign he would win the battle. Over the next few years he becomes sole Emperor and Constantine builds massive Churches Filled with Gold an Jewels.The Church declares him to be the greatest man since Christ. Some Catholic Bishops State that he will rule in heaven with Jesus. He elevates the status of Bishops and declares the Bishops to be "God's on Earth" Removes them from the burden of paying Taxes. He makes the Bishops rulers over the Empire by agreeing to do what ever the majority of Bishops pass as Cannons. He gives away literally hundreds of thousand of acres of Imperial land to the Catholic Church.
This new Religion of the Kings of the North (Roman Empire) will last until Christ second coming it will trample the Great Tribulation Saints and set up the Final abomination on the Temple Mount.
God has told us the major events that we need to know to show us the truth in advance as promised in Amos 3:
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Hi DFW
I did this devoid of pasting all the supporting scripture but believe me there are dozens and dozens of verses that back the time line and every single point.
1. the 144,000 are sealed. They go out 2 by 2 and call on mankind to repent for 3.5 years and release the first five plagues. They show many Christians the truth through the power of the Spirit they have. Half of Christianity believes they are the 144,000 the other half believes them to be evil.
2. During these first four plagues the world spirals in to Chaos and war. The Muslims led by an army coming Iran and Afghanistan surround Jerusalem. The Christian Nations come to defend Israel. People both A-Mill and Dispensationalists believe this is Gog and Magog.
3. At the fifth Trumpet the Beast is released from the pit and destroys the armies surrounding Jerusalem with fire from heaven. Not only the Armies but also their homelands.
4. Half the Christian world believes he is Jesus returned. The Beast builds his Palace on the Temple mount where it ought not to be this is the abomination that causes desolation in dan 12 and Matt 24. He claims it is Holy Jerusalem of Rev 21.
5. He shows himself to be God and the world believes he is God. Everyone accept the ones who believe the 144,000. The Beast from the pit arrests the 144,000 and puts them to death. The Great multitude follow the 144,000 to their deaths.
6. From the time that he kills the 144,000 taking away the only acceptable sacrifice to God in the NT era IE the Prayers and deeds of the Saints.......to the day he finishes his palace on the Temple mount shall be 1290 days.
7.Blessed is he who makes it to 1335 days.
I did this devoid of pasting all the supporting scripture but believe me there are dozens and dozens of verses that back the time line and every single point.
1. the 144,000 are sealed. They go out 2 by 2 and call on mankind to repent for 3.5 years and release the first five plagues. They show many Christians the truth through the power of the Spirit they have. Half of Christianity believes they are the 144,000 the other half believes them to be evil.
2. During these first four plagues the world spirals in to Chaos and war. The Muslims led by an army coming Iran and Afghanistan surround Jerusalem. The Christian Nations come to defend Israel. People both A-Mill and Dispensationalists believe this is Gog and Magog.
3. At the fifth Trumpet the Beast is released from the pit and destroys the armies surrounding Jerusalem with fire from heaven. Not only the Armies but also their homelands.
4. Half the Christian world believes he is Jesus returned. The Beast builds his Palace on the Temple mount where it ought not to be this is the abomination that causes desolation in dan 12 and Matt 24. He claims it is Holy Jerusalem of Rev 21.
5. He shows himself to be God and the world believes he is God. Everyone accept the ones who believe the 144,000. The Beast from the pit arrests the 144,000 and puts them to death. The Great multitude follow the 144,000 to their deaths.
6. From the time that he kills the 144,000 taking away the only acceptable sacrifice to God in the NT era IE the Prayers and deeds of the Saints.......to the day he finishes his palace on the Temple mount shall be 1290 days.
7.Blessed is he who makes it to 1335 days.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
iamlamad
Lamad
- Jun 8, 2013
- 9,620
- 744
- 78
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Word of Faith
- Marital Status
- Married
I could not figure out where to start; there are so many glaring errors in thinking displayed here!
Sorry, but you have either misread Rev. 19, or did not read it at all. The battle of Armageddon is the battle WHEN JESUS COMES on the white horse. It is the combined armies of the ten Kings that throw in with the Beast for "one hour." I can guess the one lie they are fed is that their purpose is to destroy Israel completely, wipe her off all maps; but the truth will be, they are coming to do battle with the King of Kings and Lord of Lords!
So you are AT LEAST 7 plus years off, supposing the pretrib rapture comes today. That battle will be 3 12/ years + AFTER the abomination that divides the week. Therefore, how can you even think it is happening now? It is NOT. It will only last a few minutes and it will be OVER.
Your 24 Christian thrones are also MYTH. You cannot find a verse for that!
Lamad
Upvote
0
iamlamad
Lamad
- Jun 8, 2013
- 9,620
- 744
- 78
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Word of Faith
- Marital Status
- Married
VERY little of what you write here is "facts." The 144,000, 12,000 from each tribe in Israel, WILL BE sealed. WHEN will they be sealed? Right after the pretrib rapture that will happen one instant before the earthquake shown at the 6th seal. The moment the rapture has taken place, and the signs are shown for the start of the DAy of the Lord, i.e. the signs in the sun and moon, they will be sealed for their protection during the trumpet judgments.
They go out 2 by 2 and call on mankind to repent for 3.5 years and release the first five plagues.
This is PURE MYTH. You cannot find even ONE VERSE to support this. The 144,000 MAY be evangelists, and they MAY be witnesses for our Lord, but the bible does not tell us this. So it is only a GUESS on your part.
I guess by "first five plagues" you mean the plagues that are associated with each vial or bowl? If so, your timing is WAY off. These plagues and associated bowls of wrath come late in the last half of the week. The vials are poured out to SHORTEN the days of Great tribulation. The 144,000 are sealed before the week begins, and are caught up to heaven at the midpoint, so they will not even be on earth when the vials and plagues are poured out. This is all supported by the text of Revelation.
They show many Christians the truth through the power of the Spirit they have. Half of Christianity believes they are the 144,000 the other half believes them to be evil.
MYTH! This is nothing more than the reasoning of man. This has no supporting scripture.
2. During these first four plagues the world spirals in to Chaos and war.
MYTH! Please show us even one verse that hints of this.
The Muslims led by an army coming Iran and Afghanistan surround Jerusalem. The Christian Nations come to defend Israel. People both A-Mill and Dispensationalists believe this is Gog and Magog.
MYTH! Where in the bible are you getting this? I do believe we can find a little support that Jerusalem will be surrounded. But how can you prove Iran and Afghanistan? I doubt this very much. I think many dispensationalists believe the Ezek. 38 war will come before the Week. I have often thought it was describing events at the 7th vial that ends the week. Some call the battle at the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ the "God and Magog" war. So were you thinking of this war, of the Ezek. 38 war?
Rev. 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
3. At the fifth Trumpet the Beast is released from the pit and destroys the armies surrounding Jerusalem with fire from heaven. Not only the Armies but also their homelands.
MYTH SO FAR OFF it is unbelievable anyone could think it or believe it! Please show us at least one scripture that even hints of such a thing? The 5th trumpet is what looses the little beasties that have teeth like lions and sting like scorpions; they are to do NOTHING but hurt those people without the seal of God (the 144,000)
There will be a demonic spirit released from the bottomless pit, that will probably possess the man of sin, called Apollyon or Abaddon. The bible is not very clear on this. It is stated as fact that someone or something comes out of the bottomless pit and will (eventually, not at the 5th trumpet) kill the two witnesses. These will be TWO MEN. NOT the church, NOT the 144,000. They will be killed by this beast 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ends the week. These two begin to testify 3 1/2 days before the abomination that divides the week. All this can be backed up by scripture.
The other thing we know is that this beast "was" before the time of John, and "is not" at the time John wrote, and "will come" some time future to John, and probably still future to us today. What does this mean?
We can only guess; perhaps it was the same demonic spirit behind Alexander the Great. Perhaps it was the same spirit that convinced Nebuchadnezzar to force people to worship an image. Perhaps it was the same demonic spirit that was controlling Antiochus Epiphanes when he did the terrible things he did. All this is only a guess.
4. Half the Christian world believes he is Jesus returned.
There will only be a "remnant" (Rev. 12:17) left of the "Christian world" because most will have left at the pretrib rapture. John tells us that ALL the world will be deceived by the Leopard Beast and false prophet, except those whose names are written in heaven.
The Beast builds his Palace on the Temple mount where it ought not to be this is the abomination that causes desolation in dan 12 and Matt 24. He claims it is Holy Jerusalem of Rev 21.
There is no doubt the Leopard Beast will make His home in Jerusalem for at least most of the last 3 1/2 years. There can be little doubt he will make many rich buying gold and silver and purple and jewels and riches from others. Will he build a palace on the temple mount? That part is MYTH, and cannot be backed by scripture. It is FAR more likely he will repeat what Nebuchadnazzar did and make an image of himself, and do what Antiochus did and place it in the Most holy place in the new Jewish temple.
5. He shows himself to be God and the world believes he is God.
WOW! Finally something that can be backed up with scripture! Yes, the world believes he is God and worships him. Since this writer has done much guessing, I will guess here, that the world will begin to bow down to the Leopard Beast as we see Muslims bow down today.
Everyone accept the ones who believe the 144,000. The Beast from the pit arrests the 144,000 and puts them to death. The Great multitude follow the 144,000 to their deaths.
MYTH, MYTH and MYTH. The 144,000 are RAPTURED or caught up to heaven as FIRSTFRUITS of Israel.
6. From the time that he kills the 144,000 taking away the only acceptable sacrifice to God in the NT era IE the Prayers and deeds of the Saints.......to the day he finishes his palace on the Temple mount shall be 1290 days.
MYTH.
7.Blessed is he who makes it to 1335 days.
TRUTH. Perhaps this will be the day that the sheep and goat judgment is over, and the sheep are allowed entrance to the Kingdom of God on earth. It is only a guess. Perhaps it is the day Jesus is anointed as KING. Another guess.
Lamad
Upvote
0
I am not 7 years off. We are now experiencing the 7 last plagues (including skin cancer, red tides and global warming) which means all previous chapters have been fulfilled.
Upvote
0
iamlamad
Lamad
- Jun 8, 2013
- 9,620
- 744
- 78
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Word of Faith
- Marital Status
- Married
MYTH! Readers beware of MYTH. You are 7 years off. When did Revelation 7 through 14 take place? Did the human race sleep through it? When did 1/3 of the seas turn to blood? When did 1/3 of fresh water turn to blood? When did little stinging beasties sting like scorpions? When was 1/3 of earth's population killed? When was the abomination? (Trumpets) When was ALL the seas turned to blood? When was ALL the fresh water turned to blood?
I could go on and on. You see, we climb a ladder one rung at a time. In this case, NO VIAL or bowl with associated plague will or can be poured out until all seven of the trumpets are sounded. And NO trumpet will be sounded until all seven of the seals on the scroll are broken so the scroll can be opened to bring judgment. Your theory is nothing but MYTH.
DId you miss the fact that when the seas turned to blood, ALL in the sea died, fish, and men? That has not happened! Please, forget all you think you know about this, and start over with a clean slate.
Lamad
Upvote
0
Hi Iamlamad
Quote
VERY little of what you write here is "facts." The 144,000, 12,000 from each tribe in Israel, WILL BE sealed. WHEN will they be sealed? Right after the pretrib rapture that will happen one instant before the earthquake shown at the 6th seal. The moment the rapture has taken place, and the signs are shown for the start of the DAy of the Lord, i.e. the signs in the sun and moon, they will be sealed for their protection during the trumpet judgments.
End Quote
Yes I am aware of the Darby Dispensationalist doctrine. However the Holy Spirit tells us through Paul that being sealed means you get the Holy Spirit. Of course you are free to ignore the plain words of God and follow the lies of Dispensationalist Doctrine.
Quote
This is PURE MYTH. You cannot find even ONE VERSE to support this. The 144,000 MAY be evangelists, and they MAY be witnesses for our Lord, but the bible does not tell us this. So it is only a GUESS on your part.
End Quote
Excuse me my name is Just the Facts not Darby EVERY THING I say is supported by many verses of Scripture not just taking a verse or two out of context and then saying I think it means this.
Please allow me to show you how wrong you are.
Jms:5:7: Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
The early rain is Pentecost to the end of the Persecutions by the Nations in 312 AD
This is confirmed in Rev 6:
9: And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11: And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
The Souls under the alter are the early rain Those to be Killed are the latter rain which will be Killed Just As The Souls Under The Alter Were Killed.
So lets see how did Jesus send these saints out.
Lk:10:1: After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
Why Two by Two. Well Two reasons.
First
Mt:18:19: Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Mt:18:20: For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Second they are Witnesses
Mt:18:16: But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Deut:19:15: One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
God is about to pronounce Judgement on mankind do you really believe he will break his own rules and not have two witnesses to establish the truth of the matter. Do we have any other examples of God sending two to witnesses the truth before Judgement is Passed....Oh Wait we do.....
1: And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;.....................................13: For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.
Here we see God send to Angels to Sodom to witnesses that there is not 10 good men in Sodom These two come with the power to bring the plague of fire and brimstone on the wicked.
Why did ALL the Saints Travel in TWO's and why did they send out others in two after Pentecost
21: After these things were ended, Paul purposed in the spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem, saying, After I have been there, I must also see Rome.22: So he sent into Macedonia two of them that ministered unto him, Timotheus and Erastus; but he himself stayed in Asia for a season.
Well I think that is enough about Two by Two
Quote
I guess by "first five plagues" you mean the plagues that are associated with each vial or bowl? If so, your timing is WAY off. These plagues and associated bowls of wrath come late in the last half of the week. The vials are poured out to SHORTEN the days of Great tribulation. The 144,000 are sealed before the week begins, and are caught up to heaven at the midpoint, so they will not even be on earth when the vials and plagues are poured out. This is all supported by the text of Revelation
End Quote
First off there is no final week in Daniel 9: that is fourth century nonsense. No My timing is not way off you just are lost and do not understand that the Trumpets and plagues are the same events from two different perspectives
Quote
JTF Said
They show many Christians the truth through the power of the Spirit they have. Half of Christianity believes they are the 144,000 the other half believes them to be evil.
Iamlamad replied
MYTH! This is nothing more than the reasoning of man. This has no supporting scripture.
End Quote
Well once again if you had any understanding of scripture you would know that Jesus tells us there will be 10 congregations/Churches of Christians when he returns. Five will be saved because they understand the words of the prophets and five will not understand the words of the prophets and will be deceived and thus locked out of the wedding feast.
Now if you understood that the Two Olive Trees represent the Two Houses of Israel IE The House of Jacob and the House of Judah you might be able to grasp what is being said. Also you would have to accept Jesus' very plain words that Two Candlesticks represent two Churches. Then you would see that the two witnesses are not just two individual people but two groups of people.
Quote
JTF Said
2. During these first four plagues the world spirals in to Chaos and war.
Iamlamadreplied
MYTH! Please show us even one verse that hints of this.
End Quote
Just one verse that is easy how about five.
Dan 11:40: And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. 41: He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. 42: He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43: But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. 44: But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. 45: And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
All your nonsense about pretrib rapture I will deal with in another thread if you want to start one.
It is clear you are one of those who deny that Rome is the fourth beast in Daniel 7 or the Toes. You strive to put today's headlines and make it fit scripture. So I will not bother answering the rest because your lack of scriptural understanding is soooooo obvious it would take ten threads on these different subjects to show you how wrong you are.
Quote
VERY little of what you write here is "facts." The 144,000, 12,000 from each tribe in Israel, WILL BE sealed. WHEN will they be sealed? Right after the pretrib rapture that will happen one instant before the earthquake shown at the 6th seal. The moment the rapture has taken place, and the signs are shown for the start of the DAy of the Lord, i.e. the signs in the sun and moon, they will be sealed for their protection during the trumpet judgments.
End Quote
Yes I am aware of the Darby Dispensationalist doctrine. However the Holy Spirit tells us through Paul that being sealed means you get the Holy Spirit. Of course you are free to ignore the plain words of God and follow the lies of Dispensationalist Doctrine.
Quote
This is PURE MYTH. You cannot find even ONE VERSE to support this. The 144,000 MAY be evangelists, and they MAY be witnesses for our Lord, but the bible does not tell us this. So it is only a GUESS on your part.
End Quote
Excuse me my name is Just the Facts not Darby EVERY THING I say is supported by many verses of Scripture not just taking a verse or two out of context and then saying I think it means this.
Please allow me to show you how wrong you are.
Jms:5:7: Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
The early rain is Pentecost to the end of the Persecutions by the Nations in 312 AD
This is confirmed in Rev 6:
9: And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11: And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
The Souls under the alter are the early rain Those to be Killed are the latter rain which will be Killed Just As The Souls Under The Alter Were Killed.
So lets see how did Jesus send these saints out.
Lk:10:1: After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
Why Two by Two. Well Two reasons.
First
Mt:18:19: Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Mt:18:20: For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Second they are Witnesses
Mt:18:16: But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Deut:19:15: One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
God is about to pronounce Judgement on mankind do you really believe he will break his own rules and not have two witnesses to establish the truth of the matter. Do we have any other examples of God sending two to witnesses the truth before Judgement is Passed....Oh Wait we do.....
1: And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;.....................................13: For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.
Here we see God send to Angels to Sodom to witnesses that there is not 10 good men in Sodom These two come with the power to bring the plague of fire and brimstone on the wicked.
Why did ALL the Saints Travel in TWO's and why did they send out others in two after Pentecost
21: After these things were ended, Paul purposed in the spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem, saying, After I have been there, I must also see Rome.22: So he sent into Macedonia two of them that ministered unto him, Timotheus and Erastus; but he himself stayed in Asia for a season.
Well I think that is enough about Two by Two
Quote
I guess by "first five plagues" you mean the plagues that are associated with each vial or bowl? If so, your timing is WAY off. These plagues and associated bowls of wrath come late in the last half of the week. The vials are poured out to SHORTEN the days of Great tribulation. The 144,000 are sealed before the week begins, and are caught up to heaven at the midpoint, so they will not even be on earth when the vials and plagues are poured out. This is all supported by the text of Revelation
End Quote
First off there is no final week in Daniel 9: that is fourth century nonsense. No My timing is not way off you just are lost and do not understand that the Trumpets and plagues are the same events from two different perspectives
Quote
JTF Said
They show many Christians the truth through the power of the Spirit they have. Half of Christianity believes they are the 144,000 the other half believes them to be evil.
Iamlamad replied
MYTH! This is nothing more than the reasoning of man. This has no supporting scripture.
End Quote
Well once again if you had any understanding of scripture you would know that Jesus tells us there will be 10 congregations/Churches of Christians when he returns. Five will be saved because they understand the words of the prophets and five will not understand the words of the prophets and will be deceived and thus locked out of the wedding feast.
Now if you understood that the Two Olive Trees represent the Two Houses of Israel IE The House of Jacob and the House of Judah you might be able to grasp what is being said. Also you would have to accept Jesus' very plain words that Two Candlesticks represent two Churches. Then you would see that the two witnesses are not just two individual people but two groups of people.
Quote
JTF Said
2. During these first four plagues the world spirals in to Chaos and war.
Iamlamadreplied
MYTH! Please show us even one verse that hints of this.
End Quote
Just one verse that is easy how about five.
Dan 11:40: And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. 41: He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. 42: He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43: But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. 44: But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. 45: And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
All your nonsense about pretrib rapture I will deal with in another thread if you want to start one.
It is clear you are one of those who deny that Rome is the fourth beast in Daniel 7 or the Toes. You strive to put today's headlines and make it fit scripture. So I will not bother answering the rest because your lack of scriptural understanding is soooooo obvious it would take ten threads on these different subjects to show you how wrong you are.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
dfw69
Pre-Tribulation Pre- False Messianic Age
- Nov 16, 2011
- 8,273
- 826
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
All the tribes are Jews .. All the tribes are children of Israel .. Judah is not Jews Judah is one tribe of Jews ..Jews are a name given to the children of Israel who lived in judea ..
The last 7 years of the final anti Christ is centered in judea .. I mean the messianic prophecies are being fulfilled before Christ returns ... Rev speaks of the temple the coming tribulation and mark is given when the idol is placed in the temple in Jerusalem ... The 2 witnesses lie in the streets of Jerusalem
Did not the apostles of Christ start out as Jewish in faith? They became christian and so will the future12 tribes of Israel .. Not Gentiles churches or a spiritual Israel .. Rev are events just before Christ makes his kingdom on earth.. It's the messianic prophecies being fulfilled
Only god knows what tribes exist.. That is why god is sealing 144000... 12 from each tribe .. He chose them.. And they still exist..
Those saved throughout history are resurrected and raptured out
These 144000 are a class or group of their own for a purpose that god will fulfill by promise
I never said I didn't .. But I have the right to believe what I feel is truth whether you disagree or not
I believe in the messianic prophecies yet to come conserning Israel and the kingdom of David
I believe the 10 gentile nations will rise up against Israel and I believe and antichrist will lead them
Ok so 7 churches are candlesticks.. Why candlesticks?... Because they shine light and testify of Jesus ... Same with the 2 witnesses yet to come... They can be 2 individuals and be referred to as candlesticks... They do not have to be a group ... Because you interpret candlesticks as only churches ... A man can be a candlestick as well as a church or group who is Jewish like the 144000 Jewish witnesses ..
In your eyes it may be wrong... Not in mine....I disagree with your interpretation.... Mine makes sense to me .. You disagree ?... Ok let's move on
Jesus never said the 144000 are the two candlesticks and two olive trees.. It does not say that and you know it...
7 churches are candlesticks yes ... We Jews and Gentiles are grafted into an olive tree yes it says that... But it never says 144000 are the two olive trees and two candlesticks... So they can be something else..and I'm my oppinion they are Enoch and Elijah
That's just too much info for me to tackle ... I like to take things a little slower.. Perhaps we can do this at a slower pace.... I get lost in the confusion because I see it one way and trying to see it your way is difficult
but I'm trying
Upvote
0
dfw69
Pre-Tribulation Pre- False Messianic Age
- Nov 16, 2011
- 8,273
- 826
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
What exactly are the first 5 plagues ?
Why do the other half of the churches think they are evil?
Is this Armageddon? Or a false Armageddon ?
Why do the christian nations come to save Israel from Muslims if war and chaos is happening around the world?... You would think they would be in no position to aid others in the midst of their own chaos and war and plagues ... Also with the 144000 witnessing ... You would think the christian nations would be warn that gog Magog is not happening and not be deceived because the 144000 would warn them of the beast to come
The beast is an fallen angel claiming to be Jesus returned? He has killed the 144000 at this time..and all the christian nations are destroyed how? by fire from heaven?
So the remaining 5 christian nations that survived their homelands destroyed believe he is Jesus even after the witness of the 144000? And the other 5 christian nations don't believe he is Jesus ?
What is his mark ? And idol? And 666?
So at some point the 144000 and half of the christian nations are killed ... When ? At the end of 31/2 years ? I'm really confused sorry
Is this the second 31/2 years?
So the true Jesus is suppose to come on day 1335 day?
Upvote
0
Hi DFW
Quote
What exactly are the first 5 plagues ?
Why do the other half of the churches think they are evil?
End Quote
The first five Trumpets are the first five plagues. You do not understand that the seven Trumpets and the Seven Bowls are the same events. Please see this thread. http://www.christianforums.com/t7778349/
The five Denominations / Churches that believe that the AC Is Jesus returned will see the others as demon possessed or deceived. They will be arrested and given a chance to swear that the AC is Jesus Returned IE is God. If they refuse they will be put to death. Thinks back to heretics they were tortured till they confessed. What is bizarre is the Church would not kill them it would just brand them a Heretic it was the State that put you to death not the Church. Once branded a Heretic you were doomed you would be arrested and burned alive while the church stood by and prayed for your soul. The Church did not kill you they caused you to be killed.
The 144,000 who are the two witnesses will have brought plagues on the Earth. I think there is allot of evidence to show they will go out two by two. It is how Jesus sent them out it is how the Apostles traveled and sent witnesses out. When they are killed by the Beast people will celebrate and dance in the streets. WHY????? Because they will believe that these witnesses that brought the plagues were Demon possessed agents of Satan and that now the Jesus has returned Satan has been defeated. They believe they are entering the new earth and new heaven. When they kill them they will believe they are doing the will of God helping God execute Judgement.
Quote
Is this Armageddon? Or a false Armageddon ?
Why do the christian nations come to save Israel from Muslims if war and chaos is happening around the world?... You would think they would be in no position to aid others in the midst of their own chaos and war and plagues ... Also with the 144000 witnessing ... You would think the christian nations would be warn that gog Magog is not happening and not be deceived because the 144000 would warn them of the beast to come
End Quote
No it is false battle of Gog magog. 90% of Christianity believes soon armies will surround Israel and God will destroy Gog with Fire from heaven as in Ezekiel 38. The AC will use this false doctrine is demons introduced to deceive people that this is Armageddon.
They come because they believe modern Israel is the will of God and that they will be saved for helping Israel. That is what dispensationalist Doctrine teaches. That is why they support modern Israel now even when it violates laws that other nations are bombed into oblivion for. They are under the deception of the Doctrine of Demons a Doctrine that is setting the world up to accept the AC's great wonder of fire from heaven as the actions of God as in Ezekiel 38.
Quote
The beast is an fallen angel claiming to be Jesus returned? He has killed the 144000 at this time..and all the christian nations are destroyed how? by fire from heaven?
End Quote
No the nations that Attack Israel will be a confederation of Arabs and Persians many of which will come from east of the Euphrates. The Beast needs to imitate the Battle of Gog magog as closely as he can in order to deceive the five churches/virgins without the oil. In Thess 2 Paul tells us the great Wonder happens at the beasts Arrival. The Beast in his effort to" fake fulfill" Ezekiel 38 must destroy not only the armies of this Arab Persian confederation that surround Jerusalem but also their homelands. With the Arab Persian confederation (IE King of the South) out of the way the only part of the world that will not be Christian is the Kings of the East.
Quote
So the remaining 5 christian nations that survived their homelands destroyed believe he is Jesus even after the witness of the 144000? And the other 5 christian nations don't believe he is Jesus ?
End Quote
No You are getting Confused. The 10 Churches ARE NOT the 10 Toes or the 10 horns in rev 17.
The 10 Nations that the Beast controls are a ten nation Confederation that represents revised Rome or the Holy Roman Empire. That will be the base of his political Power. They are already set up to receive him. The Holy Roman Empire believed it was Jesus' Kingdom on Earth. The Pope is Jesus representative on Earth. The Pope and the ten Kings will unanimously agree that the AC is Jesus returned so they will willingly turn over their seats to the AC. You do not need a Pope if Jesus is standing right there. The AC will have the 10 Kings burn all churches of ALL DENOMINATIONS, ALL FAITHS. So every Temple (Sikh Hindu etc) every Mosque every Synagogue every Church. Why would you need those buildings when God is standing right there in front of you!!!!!
So you have the 10 Nations of the Holy Roman Empire which is the seat of the Beast. These nations are overwhelmingly Catholic in Faith and predominantly A-Mill in belief. The Nations that are Overwhelmingly Protestant will be where the five Churches that do not follow the AC are most likely to be located. You really need to look at what these different groups believe today and what they believe will happen when you do you will see how they have been set up to accept the Beast and turn over their Nations to him.
Quote
What is his mark ? And idol? And 666?
End Quote
I will start a thread on this over the weekend because it is far to complicated to explain here.
Quote
So at some point the 144000 and half of the christian nations are killed ... When ? At the end of 31/2 years ? I'm really confused sorry
End Quote
As I pointed out above you are confusing the 10 Churches with the 10 nations. The 144,000 will be killed at the Beast arrival. Five of the Virgins will not have the oil (words of the prophets) and will follow the AC. The five that have the oil will be persecuted by the other five. None of these Churches/virgins are with in the bounds of any single nation they are spread out over the whole world.
So take America for Example In America the is many A-mill faiths such as Catholic and Anglican and Presbyterian, There is also many Dispensationalist Churches such as Second Wave Baptist Pentecostal etc etc. In Addition there are JW and WWCG and Mormons and Quakers, Mennonites........I believe in countries like America and Canada there will be a battle for control of the Nations. Members of the Five Churches that accept the AC will be trying to gain control. I believe they will gain control. This will allow for the Persecution of Everyone that does not accept the AC as God. Five Churches will declare the AC to be a false Christ in other words they will say he is the AC.
Just look at the Christian Churches some teach that the AC already came so why would they every say he is just arrived. Other Churches teach the AC will be here soon..
Now when the AC shows up with the great wonder of Fire from heaven and claims he is Jesus returned....Churches that teach 99% of prophecy is fulfilled will not be looking for a Fake Jesus they all believe that happened in the first and second century so why would they be looking for that now They believe the words of the prophets are all fulfilled there is no (Oil). On the other hand churches that teach the AC is coming will have the oil(words of the prophets) to rely on and be able to see in the darkness that the AC brings.
Quote
Is this the second 31/2 years?
So the true Jesus is suppose to come on day 1335 day?
End Quote
Yes Jesus will show up in the clouds on day 1335. The counting starts when the continual sacrifice is taken away and ends 1290 day later when the Abomination is set up.
Look at Daniel 12:
11: And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
So there is 1290 days between these two events. The end of the Daily Sacrifice and the setting up of the Abomination as Mark says Where it ought not to be. Then 45 days Latter Jesus returns.
The only thing I would add is you have to understand these terms in light of the NT you can not use OT concepts to understand the end of the sacrifice and what the Abomination is. This fact is for a different thread I will try and get that going this weekend also.
Quote
What exactly are the first 5 plagues ?
Why do the other half of the churches think they are evil?
End Quote
The first five Trumpets are the first five plagues. You do not understand that the seven Trumpets and the Seven Bowls are the same events. Please see this thread. http://www.christianforums.com/t7778349/
The five Denominations / Churches that believe that the AC Is Jesus returned will see the others as demon possessed or deceived. They will be arrested and given a chance to swear that the AC is Jesus Returned IE is God. If they refuse they will be put to death. Thinks back to heretics they were tortured till they confessed. What is bizarre is the Church would not kill them it would just brand them a Heretic it was the State that put you to death not the Church. Once branded a Heretic you were doomed you would be arrested and burned alive while the church stood by and prayed for your soul. The Church did not kill you they caused you to be killed.
The 144,000 who are the two witnesses will have brought plagues on the Earth. I think there is allot of evidence to show they will go out two by two. It is how Jesus sent them out it is how the Apostles traveled and sent witnesses out. When they are killed by the Beast people will celebrate and dance in the streets. WHY????? Because they will believe that these witnesses that brought the plagues were Demon possessed agents of Satan and that now the Jesus has returned Satan has been defeated. They believe they are entering the new earth and new heaven. When they kill them they will believe they are doing the will of God helping God execute Judgement.
Quote
Is this Armageddon? Or a false Armageddon ?
Why do the christian nations come to save Israel from Muslims if war and chaos is happening around the world?... You would think they would be in no position to aid others in the midst of their own chaos and war and plagues ... Also with the 144000 witnessing ... You would think the christian nations would be warn that gog Magog is not happening and not be deceived because the 144000 would warn them of the beast to come
End Quote
No it is false battle of Gog magog. 90% of Christianity believes soon armies will surround Israel and God will destroy Gog with Fire from heaven as in Ezekiel 38. The AC will use this false doctrine is demons introduced to deceive people that this is Armageddon.
They come because they believe modern Israel is the will of God and that they will be saved for helping Israel. That is what dispensationalist Doctrine teaches. That is why they support modern Israel now even when it violates laws that other nations are bombed into oblivion for. They are under the deception of the Doctrine of Demons a Doctrine that is setting the world up to accept the AC's great wonder of fire from heaven as the actions of God as in Ezekiel 38.
Quote
The beast is an fallen angel claiming to be Jesus returned? He has killed the 144000 at this time..and all the christian nations are destroyed how? by fire from heaven?
End Quote
No the nations that Attack Israel will be a confederation of Arabs and Persians many of which will come from east of the Euphrates. The Beast needs to imitate the Battle of Gog magog as closely as he can in order to deceive the five churches/virgins without the oil. In Thess 2 Paul tells us the great Wonder happens at the beasts Arrival. The Beast in his effort to" fake fulfill" Ezekiel 38 must destroy not only the armies of this Arab Persian confederation that surround Jerusalem but also their homelands. With the Arab Persian confederation (IE King of the South) out of the way the only part of the world that will not be Christian is the Kings of the East.
Quote
So the remaining 5 christian nations that survived their homelands destroyed believe he is Jesus even after the witness of the 144000? And the other 5 christian nations don't believe he is Jesus ?
End Quote
No You are getting Confused. The 10 Churches ARE NOT the 10 Toes or the 10 horns in rev 17.
The 10 Nations that the Beast controls are a ten nation Confederation that represents revised Rome or the Holy Roman Empire. That will be the base of his political Power. They are already set up to receive him. The Holy Roman Empire believed it was Jesus' Kingdom on Earth. The Pope is Jesus representative on Earth. The Pope and the ten Kings will unanimously agree that the AC is Jesus returned so they will willingly turn over their seats to the AC. You do not need a Pope if Jesus is standing right there. The AC will have the 10 Kings burn all churches of ALL DENOMINATIONS, ALL FAITHS. So every Temple (Sikh Hindu etc) every Mosque every Synagogue every Church. Why would you need those buildings when God is standing right there in front of you!!!!!
So you have the 10 Nations of the Holy Roman Empire which is the seat of the Beast. These nations are overwhelmingly Catholic in Faith and predominantly A-Mill in belief. The Nations that are Overwhelmingly Protestant will be where the five Churches that do not follow the AC are most likely to be located. You really need to look at what these different groups believe today and what they believe will happen when you do you will see how they have been set up to accept the Beast and turn over their Nations to him.
Quote
What is his mark ? And idol? And 666?
End Quote
I will start a thread on this over the weekend because it is far to complicated to explain here.
Quote
So at some point the 144000 and half of the christian nations are killed ... When ? At the end of 31/2 years ? I'm really confused sorry
End Quote
As I pointed out above you are confusing the 10 Churches with the 10 nations. The 144,000 will be killed at the Beast arrival. Five of the Virgins will not have the oil (words of the prophets) and will follow the AC. The five that have the oil will be persecuted by the other five. None of these Churches/virgins are with in the bounds of any single nation they are spread out over the whole world.
So take America for Example In America the is many A-mill faiths such as Catholic and Anglican and Presbyterian, There is also many Dispensationalist Churches such as Second Wave Baptist Pentecostal etc etc. In Addition there are JW and WWCG and Mormons and Quakers, Mennonites........I believe in countries like America and Canada there will be a battle for control of the Nations. Members of the Five Churches that accept the AC will be trying to gain control. I believe they will gain control. This will allow for the Persecution of Everyone that does not accept the AC as God. Five Churches will declare the AC to be a false Christ in other words they will say he is the AC.
Just look at the Christian Churches some teach that the AC already came so why would they every say he is just arrived. Other Churches teach the AC will be here soon..
Now when the AC shows up with the great wonder of Fire from heaven and claims he is Jesus returned....Churches that teach 99% of prophecy is fulfilled will not be looking for a Fake Jesus they all believe that happened in the first and second century so why would they be looking for that now They believe the words of the prophets are all fulfilled there is no (Oil). On the other hand churches that teach the AC is coming will have the oil(words of the prophets) to rely on and be able to see in the darkness that the AC brings.
Quote
Is this the second 31/2 years?
So the true Jesus is suppose to come on day 1335 day?
End Quote
Yes Jesus will show up in the clouds on day 1335. The counting starts when the continual sacrifice is taken away and ends 1290 day later when the Abomination is set up.
Look at Daniel 12:
11: And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
So there is 1290 days between these two events. The end of the Daily Sacrifice and the setting up of the Abomination as Mark says Where it ought not to be. Then 45 days Latter Jesus returns.
The only thing I would add is you have to understand these terms in light of the NT you can not use OT concepts to understand the end of the sacrifice and what the Abomination is. This fact is for a different thread I will try and get that going this weekend also.
Upvote
0
iamlamad
Lamad
- Jun 8, 2013
- 9,620
- 744
- 78
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Word of Faith
- Marital Status
- Married
Yes, it is true, being sealed means you get the Holy Spirit INSIDE as a seal, the Holy Spirit "in our hearts" or spirits.
2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
However, this is the first work of the Holy Spirit in a believe. Will you ignore His second work; i.e. that baptism with or in the Holy Spirit? I also can show up PLAIN words; but chances are good you will ignore them or explain them away. I suspect you have been born again a long time, and so have had YEARS to receive the Holy Spirit baptism.
So what are these two works of the Holy Spirit?
1. The Holy Spirit within, where He recreates a new spirit within us, and indwells our new spirit. Remember when Jesus said, you cannot put new wine (Holy Spirit) into old bottles (old unregenerate spirit)?
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new
What is the PURPOSE of this work of the Holy Spirit? It is to give us salvation and all that entails, and to make us God's own children.
2. The Holy Spirit UPON or ON. This is the second work of the Holy Spirit in a believer.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
When one is baptized in water, they get WET. When one is baptized in the Holy Spirit, they get POWER.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Most readers can easily see that these are two separate works of the Holy Spirit for two different purposes, and performed by a different member of the Godhead. One can also notice that People baptize others in water, but JESUS performs this baptism with or in the Holy Spirit. And it is the Holy Spirit that does the first work of salvation.
Acts 8
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Please note, these had ALREADY been born again, and baptized in water. This is a SECOND work of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 10
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Please note, this is not the gift of salvation, but the gift of the Holy Ghost. There is a difference.
Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Acts 11:15
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Please note, Paul taught them about Jesus, they got born again, and Paul baptized them in water. Then, AFTER that, Paul laid hands on them and then received the Holy Spirit baptism. Please also note, speaking in tongues, prophesying, and magnifying God seems to happen when Jesus baptizes people with the Holy Spirit.
Quote
This is PURE MYTH. You cannot find even ONE VERSE to support this. The 144,000 MAY be evangelists, and they MAY be witnesses for our Lord, but the bible does not tell us this. So it is only a GUESS on your part.
End Quote
"Just the facts" quotes in blue:
Excuse me my name is Just the Facts not Darby EVERY THING I say is supported by many verses of Scripture not just taking a verse or two out of context and then saying I think it means this.
I think you need to change your name to "Just my opinion." You are EXACTLY saying "I think it means this."
Please allow me to show you how wrong you are.
Jms:5:7: Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
The early rain is Pentecost to the end of the Persecutions by the Nations in 312 AD
MYTH, or human opinion! Many believe the latter reign started around 1900 in Azusa Street, and has been going every since. But, since tongues were and are associated with this move of the Holy Spirit, my guess is you have totally ignored it. Have you not followed Reinhard Bonnke and his amazing meetings in Africa? Untold MILLIONS have come into the Kingdom of God. I suspect he has preached face to face to more humans than any other man. His services are certainly Pentecostal, with tongues. And most of these millions who have come into the Kingdom also speak with tongues.
This is confirmed in Rev 6:
9: And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11: And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
The Souls under the alter are the early rain Those to be Killed are the latter rain which will be Killed Just As The Souls Under The Alter Were Killed.
MYTH or human opinion! The souls under the altar are ALL the church age martyrs; from Stephen up to those martyred today. They are told they must wait until the complete number are killed as they were: AS CHURCH AGE MARTYRS. When will be the final church age martyr? Of course, the last one killed BEFORE the pretrib rapture of the church that ENDS the church age. What is the next event John talks about? The 6th seal. And the pretrib rapture comes JUST BEFORE the 6th seal. John then saw the raptured bride of Christ IN HEAVEN around the throne in chapter 7, before he (John) has even started the 70th week in his narrative.
So lets see how did Jesus send these saints out.
Lk:10:1: After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
I agree, the 12 and the 70 were sent out two by two. But John does not tell us ANYTHING about what these 144,000 do, so anything you say will be a GUESS. IF they are sent out by God, they will probably be sent two by two.
Why Two by Two. Well Two reasons.
First
Mt:18:19: Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Mt:18:20: For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Second they are Witnesses
Mt:18:16: But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Deut:19:15: One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
God is about to pronounce Judgement on mankind do you really believe he will break his own rules and not have two witnesses to establish the truth of the matter. Do we have any other examples of God sending two to witnesses the truth before Judgement is Passed....Oh Wait we do.....
1: And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;.....................................13: For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.
Here we see God send to Angels to Sodom to witnesses that there is not 10 good men in Sodom These two come with the power to bring the plague of fire and brimstone on the wicked.
Why did ALL the Saints Travel in TWO's and why did they send out others in two after Pentecost
21: After these things were ended, Paul purposed in the spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem, saying, After I have been there, I must also see Rome.22: So he sent into Macedonia two of them that ministered unto him, Timotheus and Erastus; but he himself stayed in Asia for a season.
Well I think that is enough about Two by Two
Those are good arguments - but John does not give us ONE HINT of what these 144,000 are to do. So anything we say about them concerning what they do will be a GUESS. It is OK to guess, but don't write it as FACT!
Quote Lamad
I guess by "first five plagues" you mean the plagues that are associated with each vial or bowl? If so, your timing is WAY off. These plagues and associated bowls of wrath come late in the last half of the week. The vials are poured out to SHORTEN the days of Great tribulation. The 144,000 are sealed before the week begins, and are caught up to heaven at the midpoint, so they will not even be on earth when the vials and plagues are poured out. This is all supported by the text of Revelation
End Quote
Continued
Lamad
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
iamlamad
Lamad
- Jun 8, 2013
- 9,620
- 744
- 78
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Word of Faith
- Marital Status
- Married
Lamad Continued:
First off there is no final week in Daniel 9: that is fourth century nonsense. No My timing is not way off you just are lost and do not understand that the Trumpets and plagues are the same events from two different perspectives
It is not nonsense! There is much proof. First, WHY did Daniel separate the 70th week from the first 69? NO ONE in the fourth century did that, DANIEL did it! then twice Daniel mentioned the last half of his 70th week as time, times and half of time, or 3 1/2 years. Then John wrote this same time FIVE DIFFERENT TIMES and three different ways, to be sure we would get it! Yet you still have not gotten it! God gave you SEVEN witnesses of a week of 7 years, yet you still cannot believe. I am amazed.
I am further amazed that you can even think the trumpet and the vials are the same events. There is a HUGE difference between 1/3 and all. It is plain, you cannot understand John's chronology. It is simply impossible for ANY vial to be poured out before all 7 trumpets are sounded. That is the way John wrote it. For those that feel they have to Change John's God given chronology, that is just as bad as adding to it or taking from it. You are CHANGING it. Picture a scroll in your mind: on your left is that portion of a scroll you have already seen, rolled up. In front of you is that portion you are currently looking at, and on your right is that portion of the scroll STILL ROLLED UP which you have not seen. If you are reading about the first trumpet, then the vials are STILL ROLLED UP on your right.
ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect, and WILL be proven wrong.
Quote
JTF Said
They show many Christians the truth through the power of the Spirit they have. Half of Christianity believes they are the 144,000 the other half believes them to be evil.
Iamlamad replied
MYTH! This is nothing more than the reasoning of man. This has no supporting scripture.
End Quote
Well once again if you had any understanding of scripture you would know that Jesus tells us there will be 10 congregations/Churches of Christians when he returns. Five will be saved because they understand the words of the prophets and five will not understand the words of the prophets and will be deceived and thus locked out of the wedding feast.
There will be ONE BODY OF CHRIST when Jesus returns pretrib for His bride. All others will be left behind as sinners or as lukewarm believers. I might add here, it is the will of the Father that ALL believers receive the mighty baptism with the Holy Spirit and become spirit filled. So any who refuse this are out of His perfect will. Will those who are OUT of His perfect will be raptured or caught up? I will leave that for the readers to determine.
What makes a believer "lukewarm?" There are many in our world that believe on the name of Jesus, and confess Him periodically. They understand He came to die for them. But many of these have NO RELATIONSHIP with Him! They live like all else in the world. They don't pray to Him, and don't read His Word. He will be very justified to say, "I never knew you." They have no understanding that they were born with Adam's sin, and must be "born again."
Now if you understood that the Two Olive Trees represent the Two Houses of Israel IE The House of Jacob and the House of Judah you might be able to grasp what is being said. Also you would have to accept Jesus' very plain words that Two Candlesticks represent two Churches. Then you would see that the two witnesses are not just two individual people but two groups of people.
This is MYTH! Did you not understand Zechariah?
Zech 4 (Amp)
3 And there are two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl and the other upon the left side of it [feeding it continuously with oil].(B)
4 So I asked the angel who talked with me, What are these, my lord?
5 Then the angel who talked with me answered me, Do you not know what these are? And I said, No, my lord.
6 Then he said to me, This [addition of the bowl to the candlestick, causing it to yield a ceaseless supply of oil from the olive trees] is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit [of Whom the oil is a symbol], says the Lord of hosts.
So the two olive trees to represent the WORD OF THE LORD. When these two witnesses testify, it will be with the POWER of the Holy Spirit.
7 For who are you, O great mountain [of human obstacles]? Before Zerubbabel [who with Joshua had led the return of the exiles from Babylon and was undertaking the rebuilding of the temple, before him] you shall become a plain [a mere [a]molehill]! And he shall bring forth the finishing gable stone [of the new temple] with loud shoutings of the people, crying, Grace, grace to it!
AT this time, believers will be being hunted down, locked up, and beheaded, if they refuse the mark or refuse to bow down to the image. There will be very little "testifying" done by these. Yes, perhaps on a one to one basis, but not broadcast on TV! It will be OPEN SEASON on all believers. But God will have these TWO witnesses who cannot be touched. They will certainly represent the rest of the beleivers on earth. My guess is they will be Enoch and Elijah, two men who have not yet died. They are NOT two groups of believers! That simply does not fit the context.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
9 For three and a half days men from the races and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and will not allow them to be put in a tomb.
10 And those who dwell on the earth will gloat and exult over them and rejoice exceedingly, taking their ease and sending presents [in congratulation] to one another, because these two prophets had been such a vexation and trouble and torment to all the dwellers on the earth.
"These two prophets" are what we are taking about. It does not say two groups of prophets. This entire narrative sounds much more like TWO MEN.
Quote
JTF Said
2. During these first four plagues the world spirals in to Chaos and war.
Iamlamadreplied
MYTH! Please show us even one verse that hints of this.
End Quote
Just one verse that is easy how about five.
Dan 11:40: And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. 41: He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. 42: He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43: But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. 44: But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. 45: And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
I still say MYTH. There is simply nothing here that will prove WHEN these events take place. My guess is, when He is stretching forth his hand, will be in the first half of the week, the time of the trumpet judgments. In the second half, he will be concentrating on hunting down believers. I believe the first six plagues and associated vials of wrath will all be poured out in ONE DAY.
Revelation 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
There will be no wars after these are poured out. The will in effect SHORTEN those days of great tribulation, where believers are hunted down and beheaded.
All your nonsense about pretrib rapture I will deal with in another thread if you want to start one.
If I were you, I would be careful what you call the plan of God! Look, if you wish to be left behind, I believe God will accommodate you. But don't be like the Pharisees and make it difficult for others to escape. If I were you, I would take Luke 21:36 very seriously and pray! My guess is, you have not once followed this verse.
It is clear you are one of those who deny that Rome is the fourth beast in Daniel 7 or the Toes.
It is CERTAINLY not speaking of the Ancient Rome! It is speaking of kingdoms in OUR DAY. But it IS speaking of people living in those same land areas, in particular the EASTERN foot of the image of chapter 2. Did you notice this verse?
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
The kings or leaders of these three other beasts were allowed to live for perhaps a little over a year after the antichrist beast was killed. ALL of these beasts are to represent nations in today's world. Also notice, these beasts existed right up to the day Jesus comes.
What do you make of this verse? Dan. 2:43 "whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay."
My guess is that Muslims will NOT MINGLE or mix, but remain a thorn wherever they are. Europe is having this problem today.
You strive to put today's headlines and make it fit scripture.
Sorry, this is not true. But I am not ignorant of the fact, most living in the area of old Babylon, old Medo-persia, and the area of Greece and Rome that surrounds Israel, are all filled with Muslims. These are now Muslim nations. The seven mountains (significant nations) with seven kings, where ONE was wounded with a deadly wound: IRAQ was wounded and her king killed. I suspect that is the head with the deadly wound. I suspect one day soon Iraq will become another radical Muslim nation.
So I will not bother answering the rest because your lack of scriptural understanding is soooooo obvious it would take ten threads on these different subjects to show you how wrong you are.
Ha ha ha! In the end, it will be YOU left behind, wondering. Change your handle: "just my theory"
Lamad
First off there is no final week in Daniel 9: that is fourth century nonsense. No My timing is not way off you just are lost and do not understand that the Trumpets and plagues are the same events from two different perspectives
It is not nonsense! There is much proof. First, WHY did Daniel separate the 70th week from the first 69? NO ONE in the fourth century did that, DANIEL did it! then twice Daniel mentioned the last half of his 70th week as time, times and half of time, or 3 1/2 years. Then John wrote this same time FIVE DIFFERENT TIMES and three different ways, to be sure we would get it! Yet you still have not gotten it! God gave you SEVEN witnesses of a week of 7 years, yet you still cannot believe. I am amazed.
I am further amazed that you can even think the trumpet and the vials are the same events. There is a HUGE difference between 1/3 and all. It is plain, you cannot understand John's chronology. It is simply impossible for ANY vial to be poured out before all 7 trumpets are sounded. That is the way John wrote it. For those that feel they have to Change John's God given chronology, that is just as bad as adding to it or taking from it. You are CHANGING it. Picture a scroll in your mind: on your left is that portion of a scroll you have already seen, rolled up. In front of you is that portion you are currently looking at, and on your right is that portion of the scroll STILL ROLLED UP which you have not seen. If you are reading about the first trumpet, then the vials are STILL ROLLED UP on your right.
ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect, and WILL be proven wrong.
Quote
JTF Said
They show many Christians the truth through the power of the Spirit they have. Half of Christianity believes they are the 144,000 the other half believes them to be evil.
Iamlamad replied
MYTH! This is nothing more than the reasoning of man. This has no supporting scripture.
End Quote
Well once again if you had any understanding of scripture you would know that Jesus tells us there will be 10 congregations/Churches of Christians when he returns. Five will be saved because they understand the words of the prophets and five will not understand the words of the prophets and will be deceived and thus locked out of the wedding feast.
There will be ONE BODY OF CHRIST when Jesus returns pretrib for His bride. All others will be left behind as sinners or as lukewarm believers. I might add here, it is the will of the Father that ALL believers receive the mighty baptism with the Holy Spirit and become spirit filled. So any who refuse this are out of His perfect will. Will those who are OUT of His perfect will be raptured or caught up? I will leave that for the readers to determine.
What makes a believer "lukewarm?" There are many in our world that believe on the name of Jesus, and confess Him periodically. They understand He came to die for them. But many of these have NO RELATIONSHIP with Him! They live like all else in the world. They don't pray to Him, and don't read His Word. He will be very justified to say, "I never knew you." They have no understanding that they were born with Adam's sin, and must be "born again."
Now if you understood that the Two Olive Trees represent the Two Houses of Israel IE The House of Jacob and the House of Judah you might be able to grasp what is being said. Also you would have to accept Jesus' very plain words that Two Candlesticks represent two Churches. Then you would see that the two witnesses are not just two individual people but two groups of people.
This is MYTH! Did you not understand Zechariah?
Zech 4 (Amp)
3 And there are two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl and the other upon the left side of it [feeding it continuously with oil].(B)
4 So I asked the angel who talked with me, What are these, my lord?
5 Then the angel who talked with me answered me, Do you not know what these are? And I said, No, my lord.
6 Then he said to me, This [addition of the bowl to the candlestick, causing it to yield a ceaseless supply of oil from the olive trees] is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit [of Whom the oil is a symbol], says the Lord of hosts.
So the two olive trees to represent the WORD OF THE LORD. When these two witnesses testify, it will be with the POWER of the Holy Spirit.
7 For who are you, O great mountain [of human obstacles]? Before Zerubbabel [who with Joshua had led the return of the exiles from Babylon and was undertaking the rebuilding of the temple, before him] you shall become a plain [a mere [a]molehill]! And he shall bring forth the finishing gable stone [of the new temple] with loud shoutings of the people, crying, Grace, grace to it!
AT this time, believers will be being hunted down, locked up, and beheaded, if they refuse the mark or refuse to bow down to the image. There will be very little "testifying" done by these. Yes, perhaps on a one to one basis, but not broadcast on TV! It will be OPEN SEASON on all believers. But God will have these TWO witnesses who cannot be touched. They will certainly represent the rest of the beleivers on earth. My guess is they will be Enoch and Elijah, two men who have not yet died. They are NOT two groups of believers! That simply does not fit the context.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
9 For three and a half days men from the races and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and will not allow them to be put in a tomb.
10 And those who dwell on the earth will gloat and exult over them and rejoice exceedingly, taking their ease and sending presents [in congratulation] to one another, because these two prophets had been such a vexation and trouble and torment to all the dwellers on the earth.
"These two prophets" are what we are taking about. It does not say two groups of prophets. This entire narrative sounds much more like TWO MEN.
Quote
JTF Said
2. During these first four plagues the world spirals in to Chaos and war.
Iamlamadreplied
MYTH! Please show us even one verse that hints of this.
End Quote
Just one verse that is easy how about five.
Dan 11:40: And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. 41: He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. 42: He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43: But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. 44: But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. 45: And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
I still say MYTH. There is simply nothing here that will prove WHEN these events take place. My guess is, when He is stretching forth his hand, will be in the first half of the week, the time of the trumpet judgments. In the second half, he will be concentrating on hunting down believers. I believe the first six plagues and associated vials of wrath will all be poured out in ONE DAY.
Revelation 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
There will be no wars after these are poured out. The will in effect SHORTEN those days of great tribulation, where believers are hunted down and beheaded.
All your nonsense about pretrib rapture I will deal with in another thread if you want to start one.
If I were you, I would be careful what you call the plan of God! Look, if you wish to be left behind, I believe God will accommodate you. But don't be like the Pharisees and make it difficult for others to escape. If I were you, I would take Luke 21:36 very seriously and pray! My guess is, you have not once followed this verse.
It is clear you are one of those who deny that Rome is the fourth beast in Daniel 7 or the Toes.
It is CERTAINLY not speaking of the Ancient Rome! It is speaking of kingdoms in OUR DAY. But it IS speaking of people living in those same land areas, in particular the EASTERN foot of the image of chapter 2. Did you notice this verse?
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
The kings or leaders of these three other beasts were allowed to live for perhaps a little over a year after the antichrist beast was killed. ALL of these beasts are to represent nations in today's world. Also notice, these beasts existed right up to the day Jesus comes.
What do you make of this verse? Dan. 2:43 "whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay."
My guess is that Muslims will NOT MINGLE or mix, but remain a thorn wherever they are. Europe is having this problem today.
You strive to put today's headlines and make it fit scripture.
Sorry, this is not true. But I am not ignorant of the fact, most living in the area of old Babylon, old Medo-persia, and the area of Greece and Rome that surrounds Israel, are all filled with Muslims. These are now Muslim nations. The seven mountains (significant nations) with seven kings, where ONE was wounded with a deadly wound: IRAQ was wounded and her king killed. I suspect that is the head with the deadly wound. I suspect one day soon Iraq will become another radical Muslim nation.
So I will not bother answering the rest because your lack of scriptural understanding is soooooo obvious it would take ten threads on these different subjects to show you how wrong you are.
Ha ha ha! In the end, it will be YOU left behind, wondering. Change your handle: "just my theory"
Lamad
Upvote
0
