Matthew 24 and the Seven Seals

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jtf, in a sense, the Gospel events were the day of the Lord, as divine wrath and justice were executed yet in a form safe for us to see and know. Rom 3. That then becomes a message of good news for all people--that God was in Christ not imputing men's sins against them but made Christ a sin offering for us all. Now is the acceptable day of God's favor. But the final day of wrath will come at the end. Acts 17 says this is proven by the resurrection of Christ.

As for the date of the Rev, I find it to be much earlier because it is speaking of the trauma in Israel in the 7th decade, of Nero, of Rome punishing Jerusalem (the beast devouring the harlot). I don't think it matters much on this question: the day of the Lord for the whole world is yet to come. An easy to read essay on the date of the Rev is Van Meter's "The Dating Game" in SEARCHING TOGETHER about 5 years back. Online.
 
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dfw69

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I see why you need john to be Elijah because if indeed Elijah is one of the prophets to come before Christ terrible day then that would blow your theory out of the water that 144000 are the two witnesses

The 144000 don't send plagues .. They are sealed and saved and end up in heaven ... That's pretty much it ..they are from 12 tribes of Israel

Sorry to disagree with you but those are the facts IMO
 
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iamlamad

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Hi DFW

Thought maybe you were joking wasn't sure sorry for being so touchy.

I think you are misunderstanding. The 144,000 are only the start. They bring this

9: After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10: And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

I know many hold to this theory. But it is only human reasoning. John wrote this right after writing about the 144,000. But when John writes "AFTER THIS" he has changed the subject. He is no longer writing about the 144,000.

When one understands Paul's pretrib rapture, it is easy to know who these are. In fact, if not for two words, almost all would believe these are the raptured church. But John wrote that these come "out of GT." Again, this is a phrase that most do not understand in this setting. The days of GT (great tribulation) that Jesus spoke of will not begin until the abomination. Here in chapter 7, John has not yet even started the week, much less arrived at the midpoint. The midpoint chapters are chapters 11 & 12.

So what is John's meaning? Only that at the time of the pretrib rapture, people will be dying for their testimony around the world. It is that way in half the world today, and it will get worse.

The biggest question is, WHEN will Paul's rapture come? If we study 1 thes. 5, Paul TELLS US when. Paul tells us there will come a SUDDEN EVENT. At this sudden event, two different groups of people will get two different results. Those living in the darkness, NOT born again, will get SUDDEN DESTRUCTION. What is this sudden destruction? It will be a mighty, worldwide earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising. Where is this earthquake in Revelation? It is at the 6th seal, which when broken, displays the SIGNS for the DAY of the LORD. This is EXACTLY what Paul wrote; just three verses after his classic rapture verse, Paul tells us that the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night - - exactly the way Jesus said HE Will come. Of course, because HE comes for His bride. So Paul is making the rapture and the Day of the Lord back to back events that CANNOT be separated; the rapture being the trigger for the Day.

So AFTER John saw the 144,000 Israelites being sealed, then he saw the raptured church in heaven. They got there by way of rapture, NOT ANYTHING connected to the 144,000.

The big question here is, WHY are not the 144,000 raptured? It is because at the time of the rapture, they still do not believe Jesus is their messiah! But when the rapture takes perhaps 50% of earth's population off the planet, suddenly these 144,000 understand that Jesus WAS the Messiah, and they turn to Him and become His servants.

Why did John break between the 6th and 7th seals, to show this sealing and the raptured church in heaven? Imagine a long play, where they close the curtains for intermission. What happens when the curtains are closed? They rearrange the set for the next act! This is exactly what John does; the setting must be changed before the breaking of the 7th seal officially starts the Day of the Lord, the Day of His wrath, and the 70th week. TWO events absolutely must take place before His wrath begins; one, the church MUST BE REMOVED, by way of rapture; for Paul wrote in chapter 5 that we get "salvation" [rapture] and get to "live together with Him" because we have NO APPOINTMENT with His wrath. Two, the 144,000 MUST BE SEALED for their protection before the 7th seal is broken. Once these two events are accomplished, the curtain can be opened, for the "set"is not ready, the church is in heaven and the Jews are sealed.

They are the latter rain they die in the Great Tribulation. The 144,000 are the firstfruits the great multitude are those who are murdered for refusing to worship the Beast

There is not ONE HINT that this great group of people, too large to number, have died. Rather, they have been changed, and now have resurrection bodies. John has not yet opened the week, much less arrived at the point the beast is risen from the sea. He will not arrive until 3 1/2 years AFTER this point. So this theory is WAY OFF. The beast will not show up for years.

13: And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14: And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

All this means is that they were IN the world, where people were dying for their testimony, but were REMOVED by way of rapture. What did Luke write? That we should PRAY we be counted worthy to escape "these things" meaning at least to escape those days of GT.

Look at Rev 14:

First the 144,000

1: And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.


Yes, the 144,000 have been caught up to the throne as FIRSTFRUITS to God. Many more Jews or Israelites will follow and turn to God. But these will be in heaven for the marriage and supper.

Then the eternal Gospel is preached and people are told to repent and worship the One True God.

6: And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7: Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.


There will be three angels fly around the world, preaching to every human in their own language, three (3) different messages. This is only one of the three messages they will bring. Note that there is not one mention here of the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord, and not one mention that His blood washes away sins. Why is this? Because the door of salvation via the born again road was CLOSED at the pretrib rapture, and the Holy Spirit went back to heaven with the Bride. Earth returned to what it was before Pentecost. From that point on, [rapture] NO ONE will be "born again." Again, the born again door will CLOSE. So this angels just tells people to WORSHIP GOD.

Then The beast is released from the pit and destroys Mystery Babylon.

8: And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

This is given as a prophecy. This prophecy of Babylon falling will be given several times before the event actually happens. It will happen at the 7th vial in chapter 16. This is just PROPHECY, a foretelling of that event. it seems the beast was released from the pit at the 5th trumpet, some time before this time. But it also seems he was never put back into the bottomless pit. Note TWO "fallens." Why two? Because one is MYSTERY babylon, the false religion the beast deceives the world with, and the other is the physical city of Jerusalem, which will be destroyed with fire.

The persecution starts as described before.

9: And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,10: The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:11: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Common sense tells us this warning will come BEFORE the Beast has set up the mark, and started forcing people to worship. The timing here will be some short time after the abomination; perhaps before the false prophet is seen.

Many Millions are slaughter in the greatest persecution ever.

12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13: And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.


Why do you not trust Jesus words?????

FINALLY something I can agree with! Once the false prophet shows up, the image is build, and the mark established, great tribulation will come upon the world. It will be much like the three Hebrew boys, that refused to bow - but here God will not deliver; for He has said the saints will be OVERCOME by the Beast. From the point of the pretrib rapture on, the only way to get to heaven will be to lose your head. The exception will be the 144,000.

Lamad
 
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Just The Facts

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HI DFW

I do not need John to be Elijah.....I just trust Jesus very plain words. Why don't you?

You seem to do that over and over

The candlesticks are not churches

The Two Olive Trees are not the Two Houses of Israel

Let me ask you who does God say his Witnesses are?
 
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dfw69

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HI DFW

I do not need John to be Elijah.....I just trust Jesus very plain words. Why don't you?

I do ... Jesus said Elijah shall truly come and restore all things... Implying yet future ... John had already finish his work by then ... Yet he said Elijah shall come ... Jesus is the truth ... To deny Elijah coming is to make Jesus a liar ...

You seem to do that over and over

The candlesticks are not churches

Never said that ... I said the 144000 are not the 2 witnesses and that Enoch and Elijah can be referred to as olive trees and candlesticks


The Two Olive Trees are not the Two Houses of Israel

Let me ask you who does God say his Witnesses are?



Looks like this conversation is getting ugly because we disagree... So lets part ways in peace ...

I just don't trust you or your teachings any longer ...peace to you and may god reveal the truth in all matters of faith in the end ... God bless
 
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Just The Facts

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Hi DFW

It is not getting Ugly. I apologize if you felt I was getting ugly.

You are saying that Jesus says this

11: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

Jesus is confirming he knows the Elijah has to come and then he SAYS.

12: But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

In another post you said the candlestick represented light...did you not?

DWF lets see if we can out this subject to rest once and for all

Who does God say his witnesses are?
 
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dfw69

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Hi DFW

It is not getting Ugly. I apologize if you felt I was getting ugly.

You are saying that Jesus says this

11: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

Jesus is confirming he knows the Elijah has to come and then he SAYS.

12: But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

In another post you said the candlestick represented light...did you not?

DWF lets see if we can out this subject to rest once and for all

Who does God say his witnesses are?

Zechariah (Zech 4:2-3), with the accompanying message, "`Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,' says the LORD Almighty" (Zech 4:6). Olive trees (with their oil) and lampstands (with their light) are appropriate images for the Spirit of God, and John has already used lampstands as a metaphor for the seven congregations to which he writes. The witnesses, therefore, should be understood as vehicles of the Holy Spirit, representing Christian prophecy or the church in its prophetic ministry to the world, whether in John's time or ours.
 
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Just The Facts

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Hi DFW

1: But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.........................9: Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.10: Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.11: I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.12: I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

Look DFW I do not want to argue with you or make you feel I am getting nasty.

Can you not see God says in very plain language that the Two House of Israel are his Witnesses.

Not just his Witnesses but his Witnesses THAT HE ALONE IS GOD. and their Job is to declare this to the Nations.

DFW can God be any more plain in his Statement. What else can I witnesses to you that will show you this truth.

I will end this now and pray that the Spirit teaches you this truth

Peace to you my Brother in Christ
 
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dfw69

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Hi DFW

1: But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.........................9: Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.10: Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.11: I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.12: I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

Look DFW I do not want to argue with you or make you feel I am getting nasty.

Can you not see God says in very plain language that the Two House of Israel are his Witnesses.

Not just his Witnesses but his Witnesses THAT HE ALONE IS GOD. and their Job is to declare this to the Nations.

DFW can God be any more plain in his Statement. What else can I witnesses to you that will show you this truth.

I will end this now and pray that the Spirit teaches you this truth

Peace to you my Brother in Christ

Revelation 11:3. “And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.”

Two witnesses clothed in sackcloth

These men were prophesied in the Old Testament Zech. 4:3-11, 14 “These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth.”

2 anointed ones ...ie 2 men

V.8 “And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.”

Killed in Jerusalem

V.9 “And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.”10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.”

Notice 2 prophets not 144000 prophets...

V.11 And after three days and an half the breath of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

After 3 and 1/2 days all see then resurrected and ascend to heaven
 
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Just The Facts

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Hi DFW

As I have said The Two at Jerusalem are just the Two At Jerusalem. These two are the focus of Rev 11 because the AC is coming to Jerusalem.

Look at Zech 4:

3: And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.

There is Two Olive Trees The Two Houses of Israel. Once again the Tree is the Whole just as in Romans.

11: Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? 12: And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

And Two Olive Branches Individuals

14: Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the LORD of the whole earth.

We have the Two House (two Olive Trees) and we have Two Branches / Individuals IE: Zerubbabel and Joshua

11: Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;

It was these Two who restarted the work on Jerusalem and the Second Temple. Joshua becomes the First High priest King of the Second temple Era a practice that lasted 490 years. Until they were dethroned by the Romans and had nothing.

The same themes are repeated over and over The Olive Trees are the Two Houses of Israel the branches are the Individuals.

The Two Houses God says are his Two Witnesses

the Two Olive Trees are the Two Houses and the two Houses are the Two Witnesses.

The Candlesticks are Christian Churches and Christians are God's Witnesses.

NOT one single thing do I have to say I think this means this or that means that.

EVERY Single thing I just stated is stated in Scripture in VERY VERY VERY plain Language. We do not need to interpret or Guess or say this means that and I think this stands for this.

God tells us who his Two Witnesses in plain language he tells who the Olive trees are in Plain Language he tells us who the candlestick are in plain language You can either choose to believe what God says or you can trust in the doctrines of men without a single verse to back what you are saying only the speculation of Darby and the like.
 
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iamlamad

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Hi DFW

1: But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.........................9: Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.10: Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.11: I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.12: I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

Look DFW I do not want to argue with you or make you feel I am getting nasty.

Can you not see God says in very plain language that the Two House of Israel are his Witnesses.

Not just his Witnesses but his Witnesses THAT HE ALONE IS GOD. and their Job is to declare this to the Nations.

DFW can God be any more plain in his Statement. What else can I witnesses to you that will show you this truth.

I will end this now and pray that the Spirit teaches you this truth

Peace to you my Brother in Christ

Do you suppose, from Genesis to Revelation that the two witnesses in Revelation are the ONLY WITNESSES the bible speaks of?

Of course this is not true: each age has it OWN witnesses. You can try to make this connection, but you will be wrong. The vast majority of Hebrews or descendants of Jacob will not recognize Jesus until He returns in splendor, and they SEE the nail scares and recognize the one they pierced.

The only exception will be the 144,000 from Israel that DO recognize Jesus as the Messiah, but TOO LATE for the pretrib rapture. It is the rapture that opens their eyes.

It seems VERY likely that the two witnesses will be Enoch and Elijah.

Lamad
 
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Just The Facts

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Hi iam

Quote
The vast majority of Hebrews or descendants of Jacob will not recognize Jesus until He returns in splendor, and they SEE the nail scares and recognize the one they pierced.
End Quote

The complete lack of understanding of the Dispensationalist is staggering.

First off the vast majority of Jacob are already Christian and have no idea they are of the Northern Nation of Israel.

Second there are 10x more people of Jewish decent that are now Christian then their are Jews in modern Israel
 
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iamlamad

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Hi iam

Quote
The vast majority of Hebrews or descendants of Jacob will not recognize Jesus until He returns in splendor, and they SEE the nail scares and recognize the one they pierced.
End Quote

The complete lack of understanding of the Dispensationalist is staggering.

First off the vast majority of Jacob are already Christian and have no idea they are of the Northern Nation of Israel.

Second there are 10x more people of Jewish decent that are now Christian then their are Jews in modern Israel

You and I both know there is not ONE SHRED of DNA evidence to prove such ridiculous claims. We are GENTILES.

You may be right in your second statement. But it is amazing, in 60 years of being a Beleiver, I have only known ONE born again Jew. If there are so many, where are they?

Let me reword this; perhaps you will like this better:

The vast majority of Hebrews or descendants of Jacob not already born again will not recognize Jesus until He returns in splendor, and they SEE the nail scares and recognize the one they pierced.
 
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Just The Facts

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HI iam

There is not one piece of DNA to prove modern Jews in Israel are Descendants of Judah either. That kind of info is irrelevant. If you want to get into a DNA proves this or that battle you will not like what you will find.

Please allow me to show you some Scripture which show that at least one of Paul's churches were lost tribes that thought they were Gentiles.

1Cor:10:1: Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

Very Clearly Paul is telling the church at Corinth not to be ignorant (lacking in knowledge) that their Fathers were with Moses at the Exodus.

1: James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Here James talks to 12 the 13 tribes that are not in Judea but SCATTERED abroad. This letter was taken by Witnesses sent out two by two by the Saints at Jerusalem to every province in the Empire. The Lost Tribes were not a cohesive groups that new their Identity they were lost. The OT tells us they would lose their Identity.

iam I do not want to battle with you with angry words for it is not our way. We are Christian Brothers let us discuss these things with respect and peace of Spirit.
 
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iamlamad

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HI iam

There is not one piece of DNA to prove modern Jews in Israel are Descendants of Judah either. That kind of info is irrelevant. If you want to get into a DNA proves this or that battle you will not like what you will find.

Please allow me to show you some Scripture which show that at least one of Paul's churches were lost tribes that thought they were Gentiles.

1Cor:10:1: Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

Very Clearly Paul is telling the church at Corinth not to be ignorant (lacking in knowledge) that their Fathers were with Moses at the Exodus.

This is a perfect example of reading with preconceived glasses. ALL Christians have Jewish "fathers" because Christianity came from the Jews. Paul is not speaking of DNA relationship. The patriarchs and Israel were the spiritual fathers of the Christian Church. But we ARE Jewish, because we are grafted in. However, we are NOT DNA Jews. Do you not understand that the Jews were VASTLY outnumbered by Gentiles wherever they went? Do you suppose the Gentiles quit bearing children, so all the children born would be of Jewish descent? How could anyone think, when descendants of Israel were perhaps less than 1/10 of a percent of the population, that ten generations later, most would be of Jewish blood? I find it hard to be anyone could think this.

1: James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Here James talks to 12 the 13 tribes that are not in Judea but SCATTERED abroad. This letter was taken by Witnesses sent out two by two by the Saints at Jerusalem to every province in the Empire. The Lost Tribes were not a cohesive groups that new their Identity they were lost. The OT tells us they would lose their Identity.

Of course there was synagogues almost everywhere Paul went. That is the reason He got beat up so much; he always went to the synagogues first, and got the Jews angry with him. The Hebrews were a tiny minority whereever they went.



iam I do not want to battle with you with angry words for it is not our way. We are Christian Brothers let us discuss these things with respect and peace of Spirit.

I agree.

Lamad
 
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Just The Facts

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Hi iam


It is not I who has the preconceived glasses on that is you.

That is not what Paul is saying at all. You just can not see past your doctrine. The reality is most dispensationalists do not understand the nature of the Two House of the Hebrews. They are stuck in a doctrine that is devoid of any understanding of who and what the House of Israel really is. Their doctrine is built around the restoration of the Jewish People in the holy land. What they fail to understand is the doctrine they espouse was created in the 1800's by men who then acted through political control to make the prophetic understanding they brought forth come to fruition.

This is not a myth or a theory. These men wrote this all down and published it in books then acted on what they said. You only need read the books to see what they said.

Men such as George Bush great great, great, great, Uncle to the two presidents.
 
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iamlamad

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Hi iam


It is not I who has the preconceived glasses on that is you.

That is not what Paul is saying at all. You just can not see past your doctrine. The reality is most dispensationalists do not understand the nature of the Two House of the Hebrews. They are stuck in a doctrine that is devoid of any understanding of who and what the House of Israel really is. Their doctrine is built around the restoration of the Jewish People in the holy land. What they fail to understand is the doctrine they espouse was created in the 1800's by men who then acted through political control to make the prophetic understanding they brought forth come to fruition.

This is not a myth or a theory. These men wrote this all down and published it in books then acted on what they said. You only need read the books to see what they said.

Men such as George Bush great great, great, great, Uncle to the two presidents.

So what is the theory? That most Christian believers in the US are descendants of the 10 tribes. Is this what you are suggesting?

IF so, please explain HOW such a thing could be possible.

Really, it does not matter if I had 1/10 of one % Hebrew blood, or 1% or 10%. What matters is that I am born again and grafted in. I happen to be German, Dutch, Irish and Welsh. If perhaps a few generation before these, my ancestors, some Jewish blood was mixed, I don't know. The possibility is very very slim, because of the percentages. Whereever the Hebrews were dispersed, they were very few in number in comparison to those they went to live among. To even imagine that 1% or less of some population became the vast majority is silly in my mind.

I have personally visited the "Keifeng" Jews in Kaifeng, Henan, China. I currently chat with one of that group. They say their ancestors left the area of Persia at the time of Esther, and migrated all the way to Kaifeng China. Chances are good they are from one of the ten tribes. However, today they all look very Chinese!

This is not a doctrine that can change someone's eternal destiny, as I see it. Teaching a false post-trib rapture is much more serious.

Lamad
 
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Just The Facts

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Hello Iam


No you are mistaken it was the Jewish people that were to be small in numbers. The House of Israel was to be a great multitude more than the stars in the sky and a great multitude of Nations.

16: The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth. 17: And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head. 18: And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.19: And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

We are not talking about a few people here we are talking about a multitude of nations and tens if not hundreds of millions of people.

It has nothing to do with your salvation.....it has everything to do with prophetic fulfillment.

When Jesus said this

Mt:21:43: Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

The Nation he was referring to was the Lost Nation of the house Israel which by this time had started on it journey of becoming a great multitude of nations. They had already spread all over Europe from Russia to Ireland and from Greece to Scandinavia and yes to Corinth.

In Isaiah God tells us the lost House of Israel will take "the root" and produce fruit that takes away sins.

This is what happened this was God's plan from the start that is why when the Northern tribes split God told the Jews not to stop it he said it was his will.
 
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iamlamad

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Hello Iam


No you are mistaken it was the Jewish people that were to be small in numbers. The House of Israel was to be a great multitude more than the stars in the sky and a great multitude of Nations.

16: The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth. 17: And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head. 18: And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.19: And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

We are not talking about a few people here we are talking about a multitude of nations and tens if not hundreds of millions of people.

It has nothing to do with your salvation.....it has everything to do with prophetic fulfillment.

When Jesus said this

Mt:21:43: Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

The Nation he was referring to was the Lost Nation of the house Israel which by this time had started on it journey of becoming a great multitude of nations. They had already spread all over Europe from Russia to Ireland and from Greece to Scandinavia and yes to Corinth.

In Isaiah God tells us the lost House of Israel will take "the root" and produce fruit that takes away sins.

This is what happened this was God's plan from the start that is why when the Northern tribes split God told the Jews not to stop it he said it was his will.

This is stretching and I will not stretch scripture. It is also a doctrine of the Mormons, and of Hebert W. Armstrong. I suspect Jesus was speaking of the Gentile nations. It is very difficult to build a doctrine on one or two scriptures. I think you are stretching to the breaking point. Most of the people on these nations you mentioned are descendants of GENTILES, not of Israel.

However, when the 144,000 are sealed, if anyone is watching, they will know WHERE these 144,000 come from. I will be in heaven, and will not see it, unless I can see it from there.

Lamad
 
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