Matthew 24 and the Seven Seals

[Just The Facts]

Hi iam

It is not stretching scripture at all. The Mormons say the native Americans are the lost tribes. WWCG says that these tribes stayed as cohesive units that you can actually track. I am not saying either of these things.

God stated in very plain language that the descendants of Ephraim would become a great multitude of nations.

We know it is not the Asians they have a recorded history that goes back thousand of years. We know that the it is not the Indians or Persians they also have a recorded history that goes back thousands of years as does much of Africa. The Arabs have a recorded history that is thousands of years old also. The only peoples in the world that do not have this recorded history are the Europeans from Russia to Ireland and Scandinavia south through Italy and modern Bosnia etc.

So is God a Liar of course not. Once you have eliminated all the other possibilities what ever is left must be the truth.

We know for sure Ephraim carries the name Israel. We also know for sure that his descendants would become a multitude of nations. We do not need to speculate or guess about the truth of God's word we are told this in very plain language.

Jesus was not talking about the gentile nations.

5: These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Not the House of Judah the House of Israel. the House of Judah was not lost they were right there. Why would Jesus say in Chapter 15 go to the lost House of Israel really meaning the House Judah, then days latter he says to the House of Judah the Kingdom is being taken away from you and your House is left desolate.

Mt:21:43: Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Mt:23:38: Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

The House of Judah will be left desolate. The Other Nation of God, the House of Israel/Jacob, will take root(Jesus the root) and produce fruit which takes away sins.

Isa:27:6: He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit.7: .................................9: By this therefore shall the iniquity of Jacob be purged; and this is all the fruit to take away his sin;

It is not like Jesus and the Apostles did know there was two houses

Heb:8:8: For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Why was the house of Judah left desolate. Because they refuse to accept Jesus. True they will one day and be grafted back into the Kingdom of Judah/Jesus the good Olive Tree.

I am not stretching scripture I am trusting God's plain words. You seem to be ignoring the very plain words of Scripture. Why?

 

[iamlamad]

Hi iam

It is not stretching scripture at all. The Mormons say the native Americans are the lost tribes. WWCG says that these tribes stayed as cohesive units that you can actually track. I am not saying either of these things.

God stated in very plain language that the descendants of Ephraim would become a great multitude of nations.

We know it is not the Asians they have a recorded history that goes back thousand of years. We know that the it is not the Indians or Persians they also have a recorded history that goes back thousands of years as does much of Africa. The Arabs have a recorded history that is thousands of years old also. The only peoples in the world that do not have this recorded history are the Europeans from Russia to Ireland and Scandinavia south through Italy and modern Bosnia etc.

So is God a Liar of course not. Once you have eliminated all the other possibilities what ever is left must be the truth.

We know for sure Ephraim carries the name Israel. We also know for sure that his descendants would become a multitude of nations. We do not need to speculate or guess about the truth of God's word we are told this in very plain language.

Jesus was not talking about the gentile nations.

5: These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Not the House of Judah the House of Israel. the House of Judah was not lost they were right there. Why would Jesus say in Chapter 15 go to the lost House of Israel really meaning the House Judah, then days latter he says to the House of Judah the Kingdom is being taken away from you and your House is left desolate.

Mt:21:43: Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Mt:23:38: Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

The House of Judah will be left desolate. The Other Nation of God, the House of Israel/Jacob, will take root(Jesus the root) and produce fruit which takes away sins.

Isa:27:6: He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit.7: .................................9: By this therefore shall the iniquity of Jacob be purged; and this is all the fruit to take away his sin;

It is not like Jesus and the Apostles did know there was two houses

Heb:8:8: For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Why was the house of Judah left desolate. Because they refuse to accept Jesus. True they will one day and be grafted back into the Kingdom of Judah/Jesus the good Olive Tree.

I am not stretching scripture I am trusting God's plain words. You seem to be ignoring the very plain words of Scripture. Why?

You are stretching. You are building a doctrine on very sketchy verses.
What purpose is this doctrine? What difference does it make if we are Gentile or Israel, when we are grafted in? I will not engage in this discussion any more. It makes little difference in my life or yours. There are many other things FAR MORE important.

5: These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

How about Jesus is speaking of ISRAEL as the ENTIRE Israel, all the descendants of Jacob. WHO was living in Judea in the time of Jesus? Can we say ONLY Judah? I think not. But for sure the Jews were included, as they were the vast majority.

Joseph was in Egypt around 1700 BC, so Ephraim was born say 1650 BC. Do we have any record of what Ephraim did way back then? Do we know what Ephraim will do during the Millennial reign of Christ? You are thinking present. I still think you are stretching this verse to the breaking point. It is simply impossible to prove that Great Britain or Germany or the US or any of the modern nations are descendants of Ephraim.


The Other Nation of God, the House of Israel/Jacob,

How about GENTILE nations of God?

WHOSE House was left Desolate? All if Israel became Desolate. The Romans did not make any differentiation: if they looked like a Jew, they were fair game. If they looked like a Hebrew, they were fair game. ALL of Israel (including the Jews) were scattered to the winds. Yes, Jesus was speaking to "O Jerusalem." For the most part, Jews, but It included others at that time.

Lamad

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Iam


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You are stretching. You are building a doctrine on very sketchy verses.
End Quote

Please it is not one verse it is many, verses.

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Joseph was in Egypt around 1700 BC, so Ephraim was born say 1650 BC. Do we have any record of what Ephraim did way back then? Do we know what Ephraim will do during the Millennial reign of Christ? You are thinking present. I still think you are stretching this verse to the breaking point. It is simply impossible to prove that Great Britain or Germany or the US or any of the modern nations are descendants of Ephraim.
End Quote

Well lets see from 1650 to 715BC we have Scripture. Then they disappear but hey guess what 9 of the 12 tribes mentioned in Revelation are from the House of Israel. They are not Jews now......They were not Jews then..............They were not Jews in Jesus day.

As far as non scripture sources we can actually track their travels archeology and historical sources have plenty of evidence. But I do not need to use such sources scripture is enough to prove my point.

Quote
How about Jesus is speaking of ISRAEL as the ENTIRE Israel, all the descendants of Jacob. WHO was living in Judea in the time of Jesus? Can we say ONLY Judah? I think not. But for sure the Jews were included, as they were the vast majority.

WHOSE House was left Desolate? All if Israel became Desolate. The Romans did not make any differentiation: if they looked like a Jew, they were fair game. If they looked like a Hebrew, they were fair game. ALL of Israel (including the Jews) were scattered to the winds. Yes, Jesus was speaking to "O Jerusalem." For the most part, Jews, but It included others at that time.
End Quote

This is exactly what I am talking about when I say the reality is dispensationalists just have no understanding of the two houses. There were no members of the lost house of Israel in Judea. It was only Jews Levites and Benjaminites, The House of Israel was not there. The Romans didn't have to separate they just were not there.

Quote
What purpose is this doctrine? What difference does it make if we are Gentile or Israel, when we are grafted in? I will not engage in this discussion any more. It makes little difference in my life or yours. There are many other things FAR MORE important.
End Quote

Well for starters it shows that Modern Israel is not Ezekiel 37 fulfilled because there are no lost tribes from the House of Israel in Modern Israel. The whole dispensationalist doctrine is based on misinformation combined with a total lack of understanding of History and scripture.

Once free of this false doctrine you can see Ezekiel 37 for what it is the first resurrection.

That means that Ezekiel 38 and Gog and Magog are not about to happen.

That means Jesus is not about to destroy armies around Jerusalem with Fire from heaven.

That means if you are free of this false doctrine when the AC brings fire from heaven in his great wonder you will not still be under this strong delusion of this false doctrine and you will not be deceived by this great wonder.

While you see it as of no importance I see it as a vital task in helping as many as I can help come out of the harlot.

 

[iamlamad]

Hi Iam


Quote
You are stretching. You are building a doctrine on very sketchy verses.
End Quote

Please it is not one verse it is many, verses.

Quote
Joseph was in Egypt around 1700 BC, so Ephraim was born say 1650 BC. Do we have any record of what Ephraim did way back then? Do we know what Ephraim will do during the Millennial reign of Christ? You are thinking present. I still think you are stretching this verse to the breaking point. It is simply impossible to prove that Great Britain or Germany or the US or any of the modern nations are descendants of Ephraim.
End Quote

Well lets see from 1650 to 715BC we have Scripture. Then they disappear but hey guess what 9 of the 12 tribes mentioned in Revelation are from the House of Israel. They are not Jews now......They were not Jews then..............They were not Jews in Jesus day.

As far as non scripture sources we can actually track their travels archeology and historical sources have plenty of evidence. But I do not need to use such sources scripture is enough to prove my point.

Quote
How about Jesus is speaking of ISRAEL as the ENTIRE Israel, all the descendants of Jacob. WHO was living in Judea in the time of Jesus? Can we say ONLY Judah? I think not. But for sure the Jews were included, as they were the vast majority.

WHOSE House was left Desolate? All if Israel became Desolate. The Romans did not make any differentiation: if they looked like a Jew, they were fair game. If they looked like a Hebrew, they were fair game. ALL of Israel (including the Jews) were scattered to the winds. Yes, Jesus was speaking to "O Jerusalem." For the most part, Jews, but It included others at that time.
End Quote

This is exactly what I am talking about when I say the reality is dispensationalists just have no understanding of the two houses. There were no members of the lost house of Israel in Judea. It was only Jews Levites and Benjaminites, The House of Israel was not there. The Romans didn't have to separate they just were not there.

Quote
What purpose is this doctrine? What difference does it make if we are Gentile or Israel, when we are grafted in? I will not engage in this discussion any more. It makes little difference in my life or yours. There are many other things FAR MORE important.
End Quote

Well for starters it shows that Modern Israel is not Ezekiel 37 fulfilled because there are no lost tribes from the House of Israel in Modern Israel. The whole dispensationalist doctrine is based on misinformation combined with a total lack of understanding of History and scripture.

Once free of this false doctrine you can see Ezekiel 37 for what it is the first resurrection.

That means that Ezekiel 38 and Gog and Magog are not about to happen.

That means Jesus is not about to destroy armies around Jerusalem with Fire from heaven.

That means if you are free of this false doctrine when the AC brings fire from heaven in his great wonder you will not still be under this strong delusion of this false doctrine and you will not be deceived by this great wonder.

While you see it as of no importance I see it as a vital task in helping as many as I can help come out of the harlot.

I finally had time to do a little research. I am not surprised in the least. Anything "new" that I have not heard about in my 60 years in many different churches is, quite simply, probably false doctrine. I have seen many come and go. They usually start by someone pulling a verse out of context, or simply not understanding the intent of the author.

So what was the intent of the author, when we see written "a multitude of nations?

Pulpit Commentary
"literally, shall be a fullness of nations. In the time of Moses this prediction began to realize itself. In the first census which took place in the wilderness the tribe of Ephraim had 40,500 men, while that of Manasseh could only reckon 32,200; in the second the numbers received a temporary alteration, Ephraim counting only 32,500, and Manasseh 52,700; but after the conquest the ascendancy of Ephraim wag restored, so that she easily assumed the lead among the ten northern tribes, and acquired a name and an influence only second to that of Judah"

It is just as I guessed, you STRETCHED the intent of the author.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he; more numerous, as the tribe of Ephraim was, than that of Manasseh, when they came out of Egypt; for in numbering them there appeared to be 8300 more in the one tribe than in the other, Numbers 1:33, as well as more honourable; Ephraim's standard was placed before Manasseh's, Numbers 2:18; and upon the division of the tribes in Rehoboam's time, as Jeroboam was of the tribe of Ephraim, that tribe was at the head of the ten tribes, and the seat of the kingdom was in it, and the whole kingdom of Israel often goes by the name of Ephraim:

and his seed shall become a multitude of nations; that is, of families, for as nations are called families, Amos 3:1; so families may be called nations; the Targum of Onkelos is,"his sons shall be rulers among the people,''so Joshua, who was of the tribe of Ephraim, conquered and subdued the nations of the Canaanites, and Jeroboam of this tribe ruled over the ten tribes or nations of Israel: it may be rendered, "his seed shall fill the nations" (t), or be "the fulness" of them; which Jarchi interprets of the whole world being filled with the fame and renown of Joshua, who was of this tribe, when the sun and moon stood still in his days; but it is best to understand this of the large share he should have of the land of Canaan among the rest of the tribes or nations of Israel. (Emphasis added)

It seems the commentaries agree with me, or I with them; this verse was fulfilled in our history, indeed in bible history.

Another quote from a sermon long ago: "
[FONT=CG Times (W1)]Let it here be definitely stated that neither the British government nor the British people, not even the Church of England, make any claim that Great Britain is Israel. "

[/FONT]
I thank Hank Hanegraaff for this - perhaps he coined the phrase, perhaps not: He talks of the "pale of Orthodoxy," or Orthodox biblical Doctrine. the truths of scripture that have survived the centuries of onslaught of false doctrine. I find this idea of England and the US being Ephraim being far OUTSIDE this pale of orthodoxy.

Lamad [FONT=Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif][/FONT]

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Iam

Quote
I finally had time to do a little research. I am not surprised in the least. Anything "new" that I have not heard about in my 60 years in many different churches is, quite simply, probably false doctrine.
End Quote

I agree that is why we know Dispensationalist Doctrine is False Doctrine. It was invented in the early 1800's.

I am a Historical Pre-Millennialism, the only doctrine that can be traced back to as early as 125AD. The A-Mill doctrine was in existence as early as 150AD. The Dispensationalist Doctrine is so new we even know the man that invented it. Darby who was head of the Plymouth Brethren invented it.

Quote
Pulpit Commentary
"literally, shall be a fullness of nations. In the time of Moses this prediction began to realize itself. In the first census which took place in the wilderness the tribe of Ephraim had 40,500 men, while that of Manasseh could only reckon 32,200; in the second the numbers received a temporary alteration, Ephraim counting only 32,500, and Manasseh 52,700; but after the conquest the ascendancy of Ephraim wag restored, so that she easily assumed the lead among the ten northern tribes, and acquired a name and an influence only second to that of Judah"

It is just as I guessed, you STRETCHED the intent of the author.
End Quote

Well you have done a good job of showing how this Individual misunderstood Scripture.

It is soooo easy to take one verse and say well that word really means this not that so multitude become fullness etc.

Let's look at this and see if scripture confirms this theory of being about the one nation and the settlement of Canaan.

Gen: 22:7: That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy see shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18: And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

So they are to be the sands of the sea and the stars of heaven sounds like a few more than 50,000.

The promise is Passed to Isaac

21: But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.


Esau Sells his to Jacob

Gen:25:33: And Jacob said, Swear to me this day; and he sware unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob.

Then God confirms Jacob gets the promise.

Gen 35:10: And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel. 11: And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins; 12: And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land. Well you did a great job arguing that Britain and America are not Israel.

Ok well here we have God say A NATION and a Company of Nations.

Well lets make sure we do not have a peculiar translation

King James Version
35:11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

American Standard Version
35:11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

Bible in Basic English
35:11 And God said to him, I am God, the Ruler of all: be fertile, and have increase; a nation, truly a group of nations, will come from you, and kings will be your offspring;

Darby's English Translation
35:11 And God said to him, I am the Almighty God: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee; and kings shall come out of thy loins.

Noah Webster Bible
35:11 And God said to him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a multitude of nations shall spring from thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins.

World English Bible
35:11 God said to him, "I am God Almighty. Be fruitful and multiply. A nation and a company of nations will be from you, and kings will come out of your loins.

Young's Literal Translation
35:11 And God saith to him, `I am God Almighty; be fruitful and multiply, a nation and an assembly of nations is from thee, and kings from thy loins go out;

Well I think it is safe to say we are not talking "fullness" here we are talking about a group of nations that are as numerous as the stars in the sky and the sands of the Seas

As we can see you Pulpit commentary is absolutely lost. They have no Idea what they are talking about they have taken one verse and twisted it to fit their doctrine.

Quote
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he; more numerous, as the tribe of Ephraim was, than that of Manasseh, when they came out of Egypt; for in numbering them there appeared to be 8300 more in the one tribe than in the other, Numbers 1:33, as well as more honourable; Ephraim's standard was placed before Manasseh's, Numbers 2:18; and upon the division of the tribes in Rehoboam's time, as Jeroboam was of the tribe of Ephraim, that tribe was at the head of the ten tribes, and the seat of the kingdom was in it, and the whole kingdom of Israel often goes by the name of Ephraim:

and his seed shall become a multitude of nations; that is, of families, for as nations are called families, Amos 3:1; so families may be called nations; the Targum of Onkelos is,"his sons shall be rulers among the people,''so Joshua, who was of the tribe of Ephraim, conquered and subdued the nations of the Canaanites, and Jeroboam of this tribe ruled over the ten tribes or nations of Israel: it may be rendered, "his seed shall fill the nations" (t), or be "the fulness" of them; which Jarchi interprets of the whole world being filled with the fame and renown of Joshua, who was of this tribe, when the sun and moon stood still in his days; but it is best to understand this of the large share he should have of the land of Canaan among the rest of the tribes or nations of Israel. (Emphasis added)
End Quote

Well as we have seen above they have taken the birthright to Ephraim changed the word to fullness ignoring Gen 35 where it is made clear it has nothing to do with "fullness" and everything to do with a single nation and a group of nations. Ok so lets see if it is "best to understand" this promise was fulfilled in the taking of Canaan.

So we have Tom Dick and Harry's opinion on this subject, let's see what God says. By the time of Jeremiah they had long settled the land of Canaan and been taken away out of the land. Does God through Jeremiah see this promise as fulfilled?

24: Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them. 25: Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; 26: Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob (house of Israel), and David my servant (House of Judah), so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob:

Clearly God says the promise is not fulfilled at this point IE about 606 BC. So 100 years after Ephraim/Israel had been taken away by Assyria God says the promise of a company or group of nations is not yet fulfilled.


Who cares what Gill says who care what Tom, Dick or Harry say God says in 606BC the promise is yet to be fulfilled.

So clearly it is not "best to understand" this as fulfilled in Canaan.

Quote
Another quote from a sermon long ago: "
Let it here be definitely stated that neither the British government nor the British people, not even the Church of England, make any claim that Great Britain is Israel. "
End Quote

I agree 100%. Please read what I write instead of ignoring it. I already said I do not buy the British Israel nonsense.

There is no way to track the tribes they are dispersed through all of Europe and Scandinavia but they did take the root and fill the face of the world with fruit. Just as God promised them.

The House of Israel was never in the land of Judah not in ancient days not in the days of Jesus and for sure not Today.

Quote
I thank Hank Hanegraaff for this - perhaps he coined the phrase, perhaps not: He talks of the "pale of Orthodoxy," or Orthodox biblical Doctrine. the truths of scripture that have survived the centuries of onslaught of false doctrine. I find this idea of England and the US being Ephraim being far OUTSIDE this pale of orthodoxy.
End Quote

Once again congtas on stating Israel is not England.

As far as Orthodox......Dispensationalist doctrine is as far away from Orthodox views on prophecy and Revelation as is British Israelism.

The Dispensationalist Doctrine is just one in a long line of False Doctrines propagated in America in the 1800's and is no more the Truth than is SDA, Mormon, or JW.