I believe in eternal security but these verses have always stumbled me?

FreeGrace2

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But here is the rub, I am responsible for staying in Christ in order to enjoy this confident restful security in His Love and protection.
To "stay in Christ" is the same as "abiding in Him" or "remaining in Him". This is about fellowship, not holding onto salvation.

Did you get that? I am eternally secure in Christ as long as I remain in Him.
No, one who has believed is eternally secure, period. To remain in Him refers to being in fellowship with Him. We can do nothing apart from Him. If we are not abiding in Him, we can do nothing for Him.

If or when I remove myself from Him, that security is not assured because I have given myself, or as some would say, opened the door to demonic activity.
Because of 2 Pet 5:7, all believers are subject to demonic activity. Which has nothing to do with loss of salvation. Or Scripture would clearly say so.
 
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razzelflabben

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Who gets credit for your security? You, and your ability to hold on to Christ? Or Christ and His power to keep you secured?
:confused: Christ of course, I can't do anything without Him...not sure why you would even ask such a question, but okay...I'll play the game

Consider that God is the very air that I breath...okay, I have to breath, but He is the healing air...so who has the power to keep me alive? The power is in the air, but without me taking a breath, the life ceases, right? Right.
 
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FreeGrace2

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:confused: Christ of course, I can't do anything without Him...not sure why you would even ask such a question, but okay...I'll play the game

Consider that God is the very air that I breath...okay, I have to breath, but He is the healing air...so who has the power to keep me alive? The power is in the air, but without me taking a breath, the life ceases, right? Right.
As if you have the power to hold your breath until death? Wrong!!!!!!

God created humanity to breathe automatically. When one holds their breath (in defiance of sanity), they simply pass out….and guess what?….they start breathing again.

No one can hold their breath until death. Your analogy fails.
 
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FreeGrace2

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People can have light but not life. An apostate never had life, though maybe some light.
If one considers the meaning of "apostate", or "apostasy", then one must admit that they did have light.

An apostate is one who no longer believes what they used to believe.

Jesus noted as much in Luke 8:13 by the phrase "believed for a while".
 
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RDKirk

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Increasingly I suspect that the different statements are answering different questions.

Ah, first, what were their questions that Paul was specifically answering?

These were people from a pagan Graeco-Roman background who had believed all their lives in fickle, bickering, unreliable gods whose favor had to be constantly curried or those gods would turn on you.

Was Jesus any more reliable? Was there any assurance that Jesus wouldn't just change his mind or turn to a new love like Apollo or Zeus? Was their salvation merely a momentary interest on Jesus' part, then would He lose interest later? Was it merely an accident that He noticed us and paid attention to us for a short time, or is His interest planned and intentional?

Even if Jesus was personally reliable, was He powerful enough to overcome His (and our) foes to keep us? That Satan you're telling us about--is Jesus truly a powerful enough God that He's not going to lose the fight to any opponents?

Was there any guarantee that one could bet his life on Jesus and be assured of winning?

The immediate questions Paul had to answer surrounded the reliability of Jesus compared to the gods they had known before.
 
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FreeGrace2

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If we claim eternal security after salvation regardless of the subsequent fruit we bear, then James comes into play hard as a brick wall.

If you're not bearing fruit, you're not saved, period.
Except, he never said that. Ch 2 and 3 are about hypocrisy, even though he never used that word. But just look at all the examples in those 2 chapters. They are all about hypocrisy.

His issue was believers who were hypocrites. He was calling them to account.
 
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razzelflabben

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Except, he never said that. Ch 2 and 3 are about hypocrisy, even though he never used that word. But just look at all the examples in those 2 chapters. They are all about hypocrisy.

His issue was believers who were hypocrites. He was calling them to account.
hypocritical believers, would still be believers, right? Thus according to you, still saved...so what warning and consequence would that leave?
 
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razzelflabben

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Well then get truly saved and bear fruit.
No, that isn't what Free...said, he claimed they were hypocritical believers, believers still on the table. So the hypocritical believer according to free is still saved because they are a believer, nothing about never being a true believer.

Just wanted to point that out so that there was no confusion.
 
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FreeGrace2

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hypocritical believers, would still be believers, right?
Yep.

Thus according to you, still saved...so what warning and consequence would that leave?
The warning is about the charge of hypocrisy, but that was obvious to anyone who read my post.

Who likes being called out for being a hypocrite? Would you?

There is NOTHING in James about loss of salvation, or lack of fruit proves lack of being saved. Though that seems to be the "popular" but extremely wrong assumption.

I've made the claim that ch 2 and 3 are about hypocrisy, and stated that all the examples are about hypocrisy.

Now, can anyone prove me wrong? That would mean taking each of the examples and showing HOW they aren't about hypocrisy.

That's my exegesis of the passage. Now, your turn.
 
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RDKirk

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Except, he never said that. Ch 2 and 3 are about hypocrisy, even though he never used that word. But just look at all the examples in those 2 chapters. They are all about hypocrisy.

His issue was believers who were hypocrites. He was calling them to account.

Yes, that's James' point. If they're not bearing fruit, they are hypocrites and have never been saved.

The fact is, salvation and fruit are inseparable. There are no saved people who fail to bear fruit.

Granted
, we onlookers may not see a particular person's fruit, but to go to James' example, the person who believes, "I'm saved, but have not borne fruit and I don't have to bear fruit" is not actually saved at all.

If a person is saved, he will be moved by the Holy Spirit to bear fruit.

As I said, it may not be apparent to the external onlooker. For instance, a man with a secret addiction to inappropriate contentography (or any other secret addiction), may break that addiction without anyone else knowing it. But he knows it, so he would never say "I'm saved, but have not borne fruit and I don't have to bear fruit."

In a former house, we had an old tree--we knew it was over 50 years old--in our back yard. We'd lived there for about three years, then one summer it bore pears. Pretty good pears, too...and we'd never even known it was a pear tree. In fact, a pear tree that old should not have been able to bear fruit. But it was a pear tree, darn it, and one year when it was able, it bore the fruit it was predestined by God to bear.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Yes, that's James' point. If they're not bearing fruit, they are hypocrites and have never been saved.
So anyone who is a hypocrite isn't saved? James never said any such thing.

The fact is, salvation and fruit are inseparable.
What verse says so plainly?

There are no saved people who fail to bear fruit.

What verse says so plainly?

, we onlookers may not see a particular person's fruit, but to go to James' example, the person who believes, "I'm saved, but have not borne fruit and I don't have to bear fruit" is not actually saved at all.
Opinion without any verse to support the claim.

If a person is saved, he will be moved by the Holy Spirit to bear fruit.
The Bible tells believers to NOT grieve (Eph 5:18) or quench (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit. Hm. Seems your view is out of sync with Scripture. Believers who ARE grieving or quenching the Holy Spirit sure AREN'T bearing fruit.

If your theory were correct, please explain ALL the commands to stop sinning (grieving/quenching the Spirit) and to live lives worthy of the Name.

Because if a truly saved person is guaranteed to produce fruit, there should be NO commands to stop sinning and to produce fruit.

So your theory doesn't make sense given what the epistles say.
 
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RDKirk

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Is a dead body not a body? That's basically what your statement means.

Scripturally, is a dead fig tree a fig tree? No, a dead fig tree is firewood.

Then he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree growing in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it but did not find any. So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’

“‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.’” -- Luke 13


To say that faith is dead means that it's something that does nothing. "Saving" is basic to what faith does, and if it's dead, it's not doing any saving.
 
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Brother Chris

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:confused: Christ of course, I can't do anything without Him...not sure why you would even ask such a question, but okay...I'll play the game

Consider that God is the very air that I breath...okay, I have to breath, but He is the healing air...so who has the power to keep me alive? The power is in the air, but without me taking a breath, the life ceases, right? Right.

The analogy does not work when it relates to salvation. If Christ gets the credit for saving you and keeping you saved, then it's His power working through you to persevere and endure. So even though you think that you are the one who is determined to "abide" in Christ, it is actually Him causing you to do so. This is why false believers fall away. They don't have Christ in them, Christ does not hold them.
 
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Brother Chris

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okay, so we have established that you disagree with free...let's clarify some other stuff...what do you do with those passages that talk about falling away and not being able to return...do you just pretend they aren't there like free does if not, what do you think they mean, what would falling away mean and what do they fall away from that they can't return to?

No, I don't disagree with freegrace. The eternal security of the believer is all over scripture. Do you really thing that everyone who says they're a Christian is really saved??? No, and the bible warns about that. They are warnings to false believers, those who aren't genuinely converted. When we say "fall away" we don't mean "losing salvation." It just means they have abandoned their profession of faith. And the fact that they "fall away" gives evidence that they were never saved. Read 1 John 2:19,

They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Read the verse above carefully, "they" refers to false believers, and "us" refers to true believers.
 
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