I believe in eternal security but these verses have always stumbled me?

corinth77777

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Hebrews 6:4-6 ESV / 94 helpful votes

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt

Hebrews 10:26-28 ESV / 43 helpful votes

For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.

2 Timothy 2:11-12 ESV / 47 helpful votes

The saying is trustworthy, for: If we have died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

What are your thoughts on these verses?i find them very confusing because I've read scriptures that support eternal security I'll post them later but for now I want to focus on these verses.
the wilful sin is not any ole sin..its going back to the law with knowledge of faith and truth..the purpose of the writer is
To move forward so they can work on good works. So he basically is saying there is no
Forgivesness under the law..for there are no sacrifices that remain that can take away sin....this willful sin is rejecting the faith that saves. HE NEVER
SAID THEY COULD DO THIS BUT PRESENTED A CIRCUMSTANCE TO SHOW WHY THEY SHOULD MOVE FORWARD IN THE FAITH. I believe the story of lot's wife looking back and turning into a pillar of salt is similar ...
 
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Jao

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well, your first mistake is this passage which clearly shows us making the decision to follow. The predestined person does not make the decision, thus this passage does not exist to them. Seriously, I have had this discussion and shown this passage and others like it and it is always ignored. but again, it is whoever believes, not whoever is chosen, but whoever believes. this is the first step to understanding our security in Christ. It is to understand that we do have a choice, a say even though it is God who calls us and knows what we will choose. but see, this is the problem, both extremes believe their salvation is secure. Yet they hammer each other relentlessly over how off the other side is. Eternal security isn't about how secure you are in Christ, it is about whether or not you lose the right to choose for yourself who you will follow. so given that this is not about whether or not you are secure in Christ but whether or not you lose your choice....let's look at what this passage says..."who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation..." notice it is God's power and our faith working together. This is important, make sure if you need to, you read it again. God's power our living in trust of that. What happens then, if one or the other of those things fails? What then? that isn't a problem because it is talking about whether God will fail to be the power we need. No one is suggesting He is not. In fact, the only thing being suggested is that we can stop believing, stop trusting and in that, the power and living by faith is broken, not by God but by us. This is not to say that any sin is grounds for a broken covenant, duh. Rather it is a willful act just like it took a willful act to come to Christ in the first place. (aka belief of the heart) not sure what you are trying to say here




But the "willful" act of faith, receiving Christ, was enabled by Him. It's not a symmetrically equivalent phenomena to a willful act to choose to discontinue. Once you receive Him, your old sin nature was crucified, rendering him ultimately impotent in the final affairs and purpose of God concerning your eternal destiny. To make the power of man's volitional choice to be the cause of our salvation, rather than the means of access, is a detrimental concept to live under. Ultimately you will be the author of your salvation, since a little leaven does leaven the whole lump.
 
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John 1:1 GodCZU

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What did Yeshua teach?

Those scriptures are thought to be the letters of Paul to the churches. His interpretation like that of any preacher as to the teachings of Yeshua and how they apply to operating within those churches.

What did Yeshua himself promise?
We're told in scripture if it comes to having to choose between God and man, choose God.
If it comes to learning the truth of God's message and we have to choose which passage to cleave to as source of truth,when it comes between the Roman Pharisee Paul or Yeshua Christ, choose Yeshua.


John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.


Hebrews 6:4-6 ESV / 94 helpful votes

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt

Hebrews 10:26-28 ESV / 43 helpful votes

For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.

2 Timothy 2:11-12 ESV / 47 helpful votes

The saying is trustworthy, for: If we have died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

What are your thoughts on these verses?i find them very confusing because I've read scriptures that support eternal security I'll post them later but for now I want to focus on these verses.
 
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Jao

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But the "willful" act of faith, receiving Christ, was enabled by Him.

so, you want me to believe that I don't willingly accept Jesus, He forces Himself on us instead?

No, it is vital that you do willingly accept Jesus. But what I am trying to communicate is that our willingness to receive Him is primarily based upon our response to His initiations, something that we could not do without His first drawing us.
 
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razzelflabben

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What did Yeshua teach?

Those scriptures are thought to be the letters of Paul to the churches. His interpretation like that of any preacher as to the teachings of Yeshua and how they apply to operating within those churches.

What did Yeshua himself promise?
We're told in scripture if it comes to having to choose between God and man, choose God.
If it comes to learning the truth of God's message and we have to choose which passage to cleave to as source of truth,when it comes between the Roman Pharisee Paul or Yeshua Christ, choose Yeshua.


John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
But that would mean that man has a choice and that wouldn't fit the OSAS teaching of the differences in the non OSAS teachings...
 
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JLB777

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I can add one more
Heb 3
Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, 2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. 3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.[a]

The reason people can not enter into God's promises is this

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

So all the other passages your sharing, those people are unbelievers.

That they turn back because they are not worthy of the kingdom after putting hand to plow, look back to the world like Lot's wife, depart the faith, shows they are unregenerate, not born again, and so they fall away because they have no faith to persevere through trials since they have never heard God speak life to their spirit. So they are empty professors devoid of the Holy Spirit, twice dead, read Jude about apostates. That they have tasted of the power, all that means is they experienced some miracles of God in the church, They may have been healed of an illness, seen dramatic things occur.
Recall old Israel saw His mighty works and yet did not believe what God had said. Impossible to restore to repentance, since they reject Christ, there is no further repentance available to them as Christ is the only way to be saved. If they reject Him, that is their doom.

They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; 13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

And

Old and New Apostates
5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


Not all Israel is of Israel, and so not all who call themselves Christians are OF CHRIST ( meaning HE has born them again), some are planted by the devil being sons of the evil one, not sons of the kingdom. Read the parable of the weeds and the tares, both grew together.


12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
Hebrews 3:12-14


This is the same word Jesus used in the parable of the Sower -



12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13
But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13


Depart from and fall away is the same Greek word -

Strong's Number:
868 - Aphistemi

Definition
  1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
    1. to excite to revolt
  2. to stand off, to stand aloof
    1. to go away, to depart from anyone
    2. to desert, withdraw from one
    3. to fall away, become faithless
    4. to shun, flee from
    5. to cease to vex one
    6. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
    7. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from

King James Word Usage - Total: 15
depart 10, draw away 1, fall away 1, refrain 1, withdraw self 1, depart from 1


Believe = saved

Believe for a while = saved for a while



JLB

 
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Chandler50

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Hebrews 6:4-6 ESV / 94 helpful votes

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt

Hebrews 10:26-28 ESV / 43 helpful votes

For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.

2 Timothy 2:11-12 ESV / 47 helpful votes

The saying is trustworthy, for: If we have died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

What are your thoughts on these verses?i find them very confusing because I've read scriptures that support eternal security I'll post them later but for now I want to focus on these verses.

Here is another verse.
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Philippians 2:12

Salvation is not a guarantee, it is a gift. And any gift can be lost.
 
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John 1:1 GodCZU

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But that would mean that man has a choice and that wouldn't fit the OSAS teaching of the differences in the non OSAS teachings...
Why would it mean that man has a choice? And that not fit OSAS teachings? God chooses us.
 
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John 1:1 GodCZU

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what of the univeralists? what do you mean? How do they fit our discussion? We are talking about whether or not we can chose to reject Christ after we come to the saving knowledge of that same Christ and if we can what happens to us and if we can't why not and where in scripture does it say we can't....I don't understand what univeralism has to do with that therefore I don't know how to answer your question.
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself
 
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Ronald

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Hebrews 6:4-6 ESV / 94 helpful votes

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt

Hebrews 10:26-28 ESV / 43 helpful votes

For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.

2 Timothy 2:11-12 ESV / 47 helpful votes

The saying is trustworthy, for: If we have died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

What are your thoughts on these verses?i find them very confusing because I've read scriptures that support eternal security I'll post them later but for now I want to focus on these verses.
Heb.6:4-6 The message is to the Hebrews, who were the chosen people, given the Law, knew God, etc. This is a referring to those Jews who had all that yet when Jesus came, they rejected Him. It is not referring to Christians who are born again.
Heb. 10:26-28 Those who receive the Word but it does not penetrate, grow like in the sower of the seed. Some seed is scattered on rocky soil or shallow soil and does not take root. With the true believer, the seed is planted in fertile soil (the heart is prepared, ready and receptive) and the roots grow deep and your faith is nourished with the Word frequently.
2Tim 2:11-12 Simply the first have of the verse applies to believers and the rest those who deny Christ.
 
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razzelflabben

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And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself
still don't get your question...this scripture says that all men are called or drawn and others tell us that though all are drawn not all will come, which is to say that 1. yes, God draws us to Himself and 2. we have choice even in that drawing. So, what is the question you want to ask as it applies to the reason the passage was entered into the discussion?
 
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John 1:1 GodCZU

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still don't get your question...this scripture says that all men are called or drawn and others tell us that though all are drawn not all will come, which is to say that 1. yes, God draws us to Himself and 2. we have choice even in that drawing. So, what is the question you want to ask as it applies to the reason the passage was entered into the discussion?

You seem to think that OSAS has something to do with our choices. But that isn't how the scripture reads.

John 6:44-45 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
 
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razzelflabben

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Heb.6:4-6 The message is to the Hebrews, who were the chosen people, given the Law, knew God, etc. This is a referring to those Jews who had all that yet when Jesus came, they rejected Him. It is not referring to Christians who are born again.
not according to the context of the passage, which was shown long ago in this discussion and the context was ignored by some here so that they could go on and on about being accused of refusing to address the context of the passage. So how about addressing some of the many issues of context that show your interpretation wrong?
Heb. 10:26-28 Those who receive the Word but it does not penetrate, grow like in the sower of the seed. Some seed is scattered on rocky soil or shallow soil and does not take root. With the true believer, the seed is planted in fertile soil (the heart is prepared, ready and receptive) and the roots grow deep and your faith is nourished with the Word frequently.
2Tim 2:11-12 Simply the first have of the verse applies to believers and the rest those who deny Christ.
Okay, let's take one at a time...Notice in Heb. 6 who we are talking about in context. The first thing we notice about the context is that this is talking about maturing...now, a non believer cannot mature in Christ because they are not yet born. That leaves us only with believers in this passage. But wait, there's more...how can we be sure? Look at verses 4-6, the people we are talking about having fallen away are those that...let me quote and highlight for you....
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance.... these are not things associate with unbelievers, even those who claim Christ but don't know Him, in fact, these are things of the heart of the new man, the believer unto salvation and yet the text says not only that they have fallen away but that they cannot return to repentance...notice two things, 1. returning or being brought back indicated once was and 2. they can't have what they once did because (in context) it would mean they were crucifying Christ all over again.

Now, in order to not be "ignoring the Heb. 6 passage in context, you must show how the non believer can mature in Christ, be enlightened, taste heavenly gifts, share in the HS, partake in the goodness of the word of God and His power and return to what He never had in the first place. Otherwise you are ignoring the passage in context.

Now, on to II Timothy 2:11-12...again, look at context, verse 10 says this is a teaching for the elect....who are the elect? Are they the unbelievers? No one I have ever heard talk about the elect thinks they are the unbelievers, and yet here the teaching is being given to the elect, and you remove that context to say that it is only the first half that is talking to the elect, then suddenly, without warning in opposition to everything we know about reading for comprehension, the subject changes with no warning for no reason to the unsaved, cause it makes you comfortable to believe that it does.
Now, You can believe what you want about comprehension rules, but since God is the author of comprehension, I wouldn't want to challenge Him on why He would change subject without cause or warning just because it might make us uncomfortable. Rather, I personally choose to allow God to tell me what He wants me to know and yield my understanding over to His wisdom on the matter. But as long as our premises are so vastly different, we will never be able to reason together on the word of God. Thus, you either need to show reason for the change that is not there through communication rules and context, or you need to ignore the passage in context, be accused of doing so and deal with the truth of that, rather than try to start a flaming war like another poster tried to do with me.
 
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Hebrews 6:4-6 ESV / 94 helpful votes

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt

Hebrews 10:26-28 ESV / 43 helpful votes

For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.

2 Timothy 2:11-12 ESV / 47 helpful votes

The saying is trustworthy, for: If we have died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

What are your thoughts on these verses?i find them very confusing because I've read scriptures that support eternal security I'll post them later but for now I want to focus on these verses.
The one thing that these verses are a testimony to, is the fact that man under his own power has no ability to keeping his salvation as he did in acquiring his salvation in the first place.

We serve a wonderful God and Savior and by the power of the Holy Spirit we remain in Christ. Through His blood, we have salvation and that blood has washed away all sin; past, present and future. We can do nothing to earn or salvation, nor can we do anything to keep our salvation, it is all by the power of God and through the precious blood shed on the Cross of Calvary.

See: Rom 8:35-39; John 10:28; 13:1; Rom 6:22; Heb 13:20 c.f. Gen 15:8-18, just as God's covenant with Abraham was unconditional, so too is God's promise of salvation to us. God put Abraham in a state that did not allow him to pass between the carcasses, so that only God could pass through, thus making him the only one bound to the conditions made in the covenant. Our salvation is not based upon works but our having faith in God that He will perform that which He promised.
 
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Curious, do you believe a born again new creature in Christ can turn away from Christ and go to hell?
We may stumble and fall from time to time, but our Lord will always be there to pick us back up. He is the good shepherd who will not allow any of His sheep to be lost.
 
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razzelflabben

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The one thing that these verses are a testimony to, is the fact that man under his own power has no ability to keeping his salvation as he did in acquiring his salvation in the first place.

We serve a wonderful God and Savior and by the power of the Holy Spirit we remain in Christ. Through His blood, we have salvation and that blood has washed away all sin; past, present and future. We can do nothing to earn or salvation, nor can we do anything to keep our salvation, it is all by the power of God and through the precious blood shed on the Cross of Calvary.
yet this passage and others command us to stay...if we can't leave, why are we commanded to stay?
See: Rom 8:35-39; John 10:28; 13:1; Rom 6:22; Heb 13:20 c.f. Gen 15:8-18, just as God's covenant with Abraham was unconditional, so too is God's promise of salvation to us. God put Abraham in a state that did not allow him to pass between the carcasses, so that only God could pass through, thus making him the only one bound to the conditions made in the covenant. Our salvation is not based upon works but our having faith in God that He will perform that which He promised.
Neither side is advocating works righteousness, this is a lie being taught so an argument can be made and it's a lie that needs corrected.
 
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razzelflabben

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We may stumble and fall from time to time, but our Lord will always be there to pick us back up. He is the good shepherd who will not allow any of His sheep to be lost.
again, just one more place that both the OSAS and the non OSAS doctrines have in common....just like neither advocate works righteousness, both accept that sometimes man falls but this alone does not remove him from God's salvation. Amen...now, how about we return to a discussion about what we disagree on, not what we agree on?
 
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JLB777

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We may stumble and fall from time to time, but our Lord will always be there to pick us back up. He is the good shepherd who will not allow any of His sheep to be lost.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

OSAS teaches all our sins have already been forgiven. False doctrine.


JLB
 
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razzelflabben

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If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

OSAS teaches all our sins have already been forgiven. False doctrine.


JLB
I John 2:1 My little children, I am writing you these things so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ the Righteous One.
 
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