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"Gathering Storm" Ad in Iowa

Discussion in 'Ethics & Morality' started by Maren, Apr 11, 2009.

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  1. Maren

    Maren Veteran

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    Except, as I pointed out earlier in the thread, same-sex marriage and the doctor being told she couldn't discriminate against her patients have nothing to do with each other. The fact is she was seen to be breaking the law prior to same-sex marriage being allowed in California, and even if Prop. 8 is upheld she will still will not be able to discriminate. This is why the ad is false witness; it is claiming that these are related to gay marriage which is not true.
     
  2. mpok1519

    mpok1519 Veteran

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    Good thing thats a good thing. Europe is great!
     
  3. morningstar2651

    morningstar2651 Senior Veteran

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    [​IMG]

    Therefore, science bad.
     
  4. morningstar2651

    morningstar2651 Senior Veteran

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    Jesus isn't a congressman or senator. He isn't the president or one of his advisors. He has no place making rules in a secular government.

    He makes the rules for your church, and your church is free to follow his rules. However, we are not a Christian nation and our nation is not required to follow his rules, nor is it required to follow the rules of your church.

    I have no problem with a Christian following their beliefs, but don't expect the rest of us to do so as well.
     
  5. mpok1519

    mpok1519 Veteran

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    but thats the thing; if you ARENt following a Christian's beliefs, you're hampering HIS religious freedom by not allowing him to stone you to death because his lord told him to do so.

    lol

    you are hampering a christian's beliefs if you aren't a christian. =P This is the jist of what I'm getting from most of the radical religious right. "since I'm christian, theres no such thing as gay marriage, and therefore, if the govt makes gay marriage legal, theyre hindering my religious beliefs by making things exist that arent supposed to exist."

    lol its hilarious!
     
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  6. Belk

    Belk Senior Member

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    one wonders at people who believe their truth so great, that they feel justified in lying to people in order to "Serve the greater good". It really boggles my mind that anyone who believes that there is an incarnate embodiment of evil called the father of lies would not understand that you can not have a good outcome using underhanded methods. :sigh:
     
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  7. clarksided

    clarksided Veteran

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    That confuses me, therefore I'm declaring it bad.

    Well, that's my Jerry Falwell impression. Have a good day.
     
  8. Verv

    Verv Senior Veteran

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    First, societies which have their basic moral tenets and their mores undermined often are the ones that are on the verge of collapsing.

    Socially, if we allow ourselves to become too fractured we can no longer function as a powerful political entity. We can no longer have the sort of fusion within society that is needed for real success and real cultural creation.

    Look back into history and see how the fall of most civilizations are marked, socially.

    Do you ever think about the society as a 'social collective' and the sense of obligation we have to one another as individuals?

    Second question, my answer is 'yes.'

    Slave owners said the same thing? Yeah, I guess they would say it 'undermines society.'

    A lot of groups have said that.

    Could you please tell me what slavery and homosexual marriage have in common that you can draw this comparison?
     
  9. Kharak

    Kharak Guest

    Good, this will help me undermine our great society: I simply can't destroy worthless Western civilization fast enough.

    If our pathetic civilization is undermined by gay marriage, then someone hand me some torches. New World Order! To channel Arthur C. Clarke, our civilization can't be worth many regrets if this fiasco and changing its outdated Victorian ideals threatens it.
     
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  10. To Maren,
    But there is no such thing as same sex marriage in law of many states and neither in the UK, so don’t you mean civil partnerships?
     
  11. Morcova

    Morcova New Member

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    You mean besides a powerful majority wanting to use it's power to limit the freedoms of a minority?
     
  12. Jane_the_Bane

    Jane_the_Bane Gaia's godchild

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    Well, that pre-supposes that culture and societies are static constructs to begin with - which, incidentally, is absolutely false. Cultures are constantly in a state of flux, including their values. Societal norms in 1600 differed markedly from societal norms in 1700, which in turn had little in common with societal norms in 1800 and so on and so forth. Unchanging, static tradition is, for the most part, a fiction.

    You do know that the concept of the nation state and the nationalist ideal that supports it are relatively new, historically speaking - don't you?

    Most of these downfalls could be traced back to a phase of militaristic empire-building, in which the culture in question overextended its reach and weakened itself to the point of collapse. The very economic overabundance of wealth that allowed such societies to become increasingly "decadent" was merely a consequence of such expansionism, not its cause.
    That we consume more than we should, by the way, has been an integral part of capitalism from its conception onwards. For the last few hundred years, we've managed to stave off most negative side effects by delegating them to economically dependent "developing" countries (or, historically speaking, colonies). It's only now that the consequences of our wasteful lifestyle finally start to catch up with us.

    Of course I do, although I'd extend that sense of commitment to the species as a whole as well, and to the welfare of the ecosystem that sustains us.


    This has already been answered: a powerful majority tries to curtail the rights of a minority by pointing to religious writings as a "confirmation" that God wants things to progress like they always did. And yes, the slave-owners had good biblical support for their stance. I'd even go so far as to claim that it was better than the current anti-homosexuality angle.
     
  13. PhilosophicalBluster

    PhilosophicalBluster Existential Good-for-Nothing (See: Philosopher)

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    Heh. A "Rainbow Coalition". Don't you know that rainbows aren't straight?
     
  14. Mumei

    Mumei Senior Member

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    After "Teabagging Parties" and "2M4M" initiatives, nothing surprises me from movement conservatives. :p
     
  15. Maren

    Maren Veteran

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    Nope, I meant marriage as this is the claim being made by these "pro-family" groups and that is what is legal where these ads are running. These are the same arguments Prop. 8 groups used in California, claiming that calling same-sex relationships marriage was forcing people to choose between their job and religions, that kids would be told gays are OK, etc; and the only change Prop. 8 made was to disallow same sex couples marriage and instead give them a domestic partnership just like marriage. They don't run this style of ad in states that civil partnerships, just in those that allow same-sex marriage.
     
  16. cgcsb

    cgcsb Newbie

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    How does gay marriage fracture society? we've yet to hear evidence from the religious right. I can assure you, Europe is all ears. Surely the more tolerent we become, the closer society comes together as it removes the tedndency of minorities to resent the nation in which they live.

    I took your advice and done a little research and found out that The Roman Empire which was the dominant power on Earth for almost 1000 years, just crumbled and fell apart decades after embrassing Christianity. Same with Ancient Ireland, once a nation of great builders and worriers for 3,000 years. But became weak and was soon colonized shortly after christianity became the dominant religion


    yes and part of the majority's obligation is to ensure the rights of the minority. And protecting the rights of the family (if the parents are of the same sex or opposite sex) is another obligation we have, as the family is the building block of society.

    Two groups of people that have and continue to suffer from official state endorsed discrimination
     
  17. Jane_the_Bane

    Jane_the_Bane Gaia's godchild

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    Without trying to speak for jmverville, I'll try to address what I think he might refer to: the coherence of a group, built around the concept of a shared identity, always revolves around the concept of the "other": "my next door neighbour might be quite unlike me, but we're both (insert place name, nation, religion, or what-have-you) - unlike those suspicious foreigners, who are nothing like us whatsoever!" The more tightly knit and coherent a group, the more hostile does it react to those who do not fit into their pattern.
    Think of the Japanese and their concept of "gai-jin", of the fundamentalists who believe that they are waging a spiritual war against the godless, or even of the fascists and their hostility to anything that does not conform to their ideal. It is this kind of group-think that makes people capable of atrocities against others, against outsiders who are barely acknowledged as members of the same species, and utterly rejected as kin. The quickest way to lose your humanity is to deny it in others.
    Curiously, though, jm seems to regard that mechanism as a positive thing...
     
  18. BigBadWlf

    BigBadWlf Guest

    One of western societies most basic moral tenets is the belief that everyone, even members of minority groups are equal to everyone else. The attempts to deny one particular minority group equal rights and equal protection in the area of marriage is defiantly undermining our society

    And the point of discrimination is to fracture society, to make some parts of society less equal


    Just like the people who waved their bibles in opposition interracial marriage said it would undermine society

    “discrimination is wrong. We cannot keep turning our backs on gay and lesbian Americans. I have fought too hard and too long against discrimination based on race and color not to stand up against discrimination based on sexual orientation. I've heard the reasons for opposing civil marriage for same-sex couples. Cut through the distractions, and they stink of the same fear, hatred, and intolerance I have known in racism and in bigotry. John Lewis

    "Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood. This sets the stage for further repression and violence that spread all too easily to victimize the next minority group." Coretta Scott King
     
  19. BigBadWlf

    BigBadWlf Guest

    And until the Supreme Court struck down the anti-miscegenation laws of Virginia there was no such thing interracial marriage…but it still existed
     
  20. BigBadWlf

    BigBadWlf Guest


    Same gendered marriages are marriages whether you like it or not. Just as interracial marriages are marriages and inter-religious marriages are marriages

    Gee in all the anti-gay rhetoric and fallacious claims about “natural” no one seems to have ever posted the specific biblical verse saying that there will never be such a thing as a same gendered marriage
    Ohhh…next thing you know those darn liberals will want to free the slaves
     
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