"Gathering Storm" Ad in Iowa

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brightmorningstar

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To Maren,
Argumentum ad populum fallacy. Your argument reminds me a lot of the "debate" about whether a tomato is a vegetable (as defined in all of the US by law) or a fruit.
Sorry but in the UK there is no such thing as same sex marriage in law, but there are civil partnerships as opposed to marriage. It’s a fact not a fallacy despite what you want it ot be and what is law where you might be. We have our own set of beliefs and our own sets of laws so please don’t assume we have to argue on your terms.


And if Christians were really trying to define marriage per their religion; would you not be arguing that any marriage that involves a non-Christian is not marriage, since marriage is a covenant between the couple and God? I'm sorry the English language has moved past your personal beliefs/prejudices. If it had not there would be no discussion of same-sex marriage as no one would understand the concept but instead people understand perfectly if two people of the same are married.
Well there are plenty of other people who don’t believe same sex partnerships are marriage so don’t be so narrow minded as to pick on Christians. Marriage is between man and woman as God’s creation purposes, this is the issue you are at odds with.
 
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Maren

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To Maren,
Sorry but in the UK there is no such thing as same sex marriage in law, but there are civil partnerships as opposed to marriage. It’s a fact not a fallacy despite what you want it ot be and what is law where you might be. We have our own set of beliefs and our own sets of laws so please don’t assume we have to argue on your terms.

Nowhere did I state that same-sex marriage was recognized legally in the UK, so this is nothing more than a straw man -- particularly when I pointed out two posts ago this thread is specifically about Iowa law, and the advertisement running there, where same-sex marriage is legal. The claims of the ad in the OP are fear mongering of what will happen now that gay marriage is legal. The OP has nothing to do with civil partnerships or UK law; so would you please quit taking the thread off topic?

Well there are plenty of other people who don’t believe same sex partnerships are marriage so don’t be so narrow minded as to pick on Christians. Marriage is between man and woman as God’s creation purposes, this is the issue you are at odds with.

And again, it doesn't matter how many people don't believe same-sex partnerships are marriage, just as it doesn't matter how many people believe a tomato is a vegetable. The fact still remains that if a same-sex couple says they are married, no one has trouble understanding what they mean.
 
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Shane Roach

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sexual intercourse
n.
  1. Coitus between humans.
  2. Sexual union between humans involving genital contact other than vaginal penetration by the penis.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Cite This Source

The first definition is the primary meaning. We are all of us aware of the use of the term to reference pretty much anything to do with sex, but there is a distinction being acknowledged in the dictionary that you do not seem to understand. Sexual coitus is a distinct thing from "sexual union". The only reason the second is referred to as sexual at all is in its relationship to the first, fundamental definition, which is coitus. The second definition exists merely as an extension of the first.

The same is true of the co-opting of the term "marriage". Marriage literally just means joined. Its reference in social relationships has been limited to men and women, or in some few extreme cases to spiritual beliefs concerning couples where gender confusion exists.

Naturally, we can do anything we want with the words or the laws. The point is that there is a distinction there that is being purposefully obfuscated by those who support the gay agenda.
 
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Shane Roach

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And again, it doesn't matter how many people don't believe same-sex partnerships are marriage, just as it doesn't matter how many people believe a tomato is a vegetable. The fact still remains that if a same-sex couple says they are married, no one has trouble understanding what they mean.

No one has any trouble understanding what kids playing house mean when they say they are married either, but they are not. What someone means and what is in actuality true are not at all similar concepts.

By confusing the term, you destroy the institution and replace it with a fantasy that revolves around mere fondness and sentiment. This is not at all what marriage is about, nor will a change in law change that fact. What it will do is further confuse family law issues and make it even more complicated to try to get back to something effective for actual child bearing and rearing couples and their unique relationships to one another and to their offspring.
 
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brightmorningstar

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To Maren,

Nowhere did I state that same-sex marriage was recognized legally in the UK, so this is nothing more than a straw man -- particularly when I pointed out two posts ago this thread is specifically about Iowa law, and the advertisement running there, where same-sex marriage is legal. The claims of the ad in the OP are fear mongering of what will happen now that gay marriage is legal. The OP has nothing to do with civil partnerships or UK law; so would you please quit taking the thread off topic?

And again, it doesn't matter how many people don't believe same-sex partnerships are marriage, just as it doesn't matter how many people believe a tomato is a vegetable. The fact still remains that if a same-sex couple says they are married, no one has trouble understanding what they mean.
On reflection I accept what you are saying here.
 
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Maren

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No one has any trouble understanding what kids playing house mean when they say they are married either, but they are not. What someone means and what is in actuality true are not at all similar concepts.

Of course, you say that yourself when you say "playing at marriage". It is a relatively small minority that claim gays are just "playing at marriage". While there are those who, largely due to religious traditions, do not believe same-sex couples should be allowed to marry they do not question that same sex couples are married in the Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, Massachusetts, Iowa, etc.

By confusing the term, you destroy the institution and replace it with a fantasy that revolves around mere fondness and sentiment. This is not at all what marriage is about, nor will a change in law change that fact.

Actually, this is something heterosexuals did long ago. For evidence we have Romeo & Juliet, Cinderella, etc. To bring it up now seems like special pleading rather than an honest objection; that it is okay for marriage to be a fantasy about fondness and sentiment as long as it is an opposite sex couple.

What it will do is further confuse family law issues and make it even more complicated to try to get back to something effective for actual child bearing and rearing couples and their unique relationships to one another and to their offspring.

Except you've never show why it would confuse family law issues further, much less why it would make it more complicated to get back to something more effective. You've made assertions that it would but never really given examples of how it would really be an issue. I believe the closest is the claim that mothers are typically given preference in child custody battles -- and with same-sex couples who do you give preference to. But honestly, this isn't an issue. For example, since typically people will state that since same-sex couples aren't the Father and Mother of a child (since they can't procreate together), then the case ends up being handled the same as it would in the case of the divorce of a biological parent to a step parent if one of the same-sex pair is the biological parent (in this case, preference goes to the biological parent, regardless of gender).

Not to mention, it's a straw man to claim that procreation is the sole reason for marriage -- it has never been that way. Yes, it is one issue in marriage but not the sole one. Rather, it is also to give rights and protections to the individuals who get married. Even since Biblical times it was used to determine how spouses could divorce and what the terms would be, how to determine inheritance when a spouse dies, etc. The fact is, as bad as you think marriage laws are today, they would be far worse if they did not protect couples (even without children) and put legal responsibilities and protections on the individual partners in cases of death, incapacitation, separation (divorce), legal problems, etc.
 
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brightmorningstar

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To Maren,
Not to mention, it's a straw man to claim that procreation is the sole reason for marriage
The problem is two things that are married are joined, with a man and a woman, the two human sexes joined procreation is the natural result. two of the same sex therefore cannot be joined sexually. The whole same sex pov destroys this reality by deception.
Paul encoutered these hedonistic Epicurean and stoic philosophies in Greek culture and it was to these he spoke out God's word in Corinth. He spoke the same to the churches in the Roman cultures.
 
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Maren

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To Maren,
The problem is two things that are married are joined, with a man and a woman, the two human sexes joined procreation is the natural result. two of the same sex therefore cannot be joined sexually. The whole same sex pov destroys this reality by deception.
Paul encoutered these hedonistic Epicurean and stoic philosophies in Greek culture and it was to these he spoke out God's word in Corinth. He spoke the same to the churches in the Roman cultures.

So you keep claiming, though I'm not aware of anyone whose mind you've changed. Not to mention that ultimately you are trying to make a religious argument which should not apply to the law.
 
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Shane Roach

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Actually, this is something heterosexuals did long ago. For evidence we have Romeo & Juliet, Cinderella, etc. To bring it up now seems like special pleading rather than an honest objection; that it is okay for marriage to be a fantasy about fondness and sentiment as long as it is an opposite sex couple.

No one is arguing there is no affection involved in men and women coming together. Rather, it is a unique need that they have that, once joined physically, a host of other duties and obligations begin to unfold, especially in regard to procreation.



Except you've never show why it would confuse family law issues further....

I've explained my concerns many times over. You for your part have skirted over the issue of the difference between coitus and other sexual behaviors. My initial statement is pretty straight forward. To assign the term "marriage" to things that are not actually marriage simply confuses the issue. We already have evidence that meddling with marriage, making it less authoritative, holding people accountable or not accountable based on whim rather than on a true understanding of the relationship between men, women, and offspring, has had catastrophic consequences for millions of children brought up in the modern, fractured, ill defined "family" that has grown out of the sloppy application of the "no fault divorce" concept.

Women were to be protected from violent husbands because of this change. Instead, women are now merely beaten by live ins rather than husbands, and more mischief than could have been imagined has followed besides.

Yet if I cannot "prove" a distinction between heterosexual couples and homosexual couples where family law is concerned, I am supposed to just accept that I am basing my opinion on nonsense...?

You've explained nothing. A big part of the entire gay agenda is to be required to explain nothing. It is all about demonizing anyone who has questions, this avoiding having to answer any questions.
 
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BigBadWlf

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Gay marriage is only one facet of moral undermining.
How exactly does equality undermine anything?

The lack of common ideology is the clearest -- one could say that Communistic ideologies destroyed the West. Homosexual movement is merely a part of it.

Homosexuals should have rights -- and they do. They should be protected under the law from all violence directed at it but the notion of normalizing their status goes against the fundamental way of Nature.

Why should the rights of those who choose to hate trump the rights of a minority group’s rights to equal protection and equal access?





It destroys social norms within the society and decreases the lack of unity that comes from within living in a united society.
<staff edit>






There can be no society without standards and definitions on what family is; diversity and lack of mutual connection is a weakness.
Yet here you are arguing for lack of diversity


People cannot unite effectively under the banner of "freedom to do whatever you want" as i tis the least meaningful unity.
Yet here you are arguing for the freedom to discriminate


There must be common values people are interested in preserving.
Equality, justice, liberty
Why are you opposed to these values?




It's a bad idea... Equal under the law is good, but the idea that immoral persons can be equal to moral persons within a society is ridiculous.
<staff edit>




A prostitute and a drunk should have the right to be either but they should be universally abhorred. A society with no common moral ground is a society with no ground to stand on.
Those who choose to hate have the right to be just who they are. But good people everywhere look down on them




In some cases. In other cases it is healthy to dislike that which is a tear in the moral fiber.
I dislike hatred and prejudice and discrimination




They were illogical.
They used the same arguments used today to justify anti-gay hatred. If they were illogical, then that must mean that the anti-gay crowd is illogical too






Coretta Scott King was a dude's wife who once fought for something good, and later wanted to create a welfare state, which I think is kind of funny.
She was a life long advocate of freedom and equality .<staff edit>


I do not fear homosexuals and think theiy should be protected but I think the day we give social approval to an unnatural sexual inclination is the day that we fracture.
Sounds like fear to me


We lose our more conservative values which are fundamental in molding the identity of the nation.

A nation without an identity is a nation with no reason to exist.

And "Freedom" is no worthwhile identity.
Hatred is not a value worth preserving

Freedom is something we should desire, as is equality, and they are things we can ideologically fight for; however, if a nation is so inundated with warped concepts of the two that we make unequals as equals and abuse our freedom, we have accomplished nothing.

<staff edit>
 
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Shane Roach

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Not to mention that ultimately you are trying to make a religious argument which should not apply to the law.


Untrue. Constitutionally, the government neither estalishes a state religion nor stands in the way of the free exercise thereof. In situations where rival religious values clash, they are to be resolved through the process with the Federal government taking no stand one way or the other. This would typically result in the more popular religion, philosophy, or belief systems often having their way with the possibility of peaceful change over time as society evolves.

American Atheists do not like having to depend on convincing people of things, though, and find this democratic method distasteful. They want us to be more like Europe, but they do not want to have to go to the trouble of changing the minds of the citizenry so that our values actually reflect the same values as Europeans. We simply are to be forced to change.

There was probably no single driving force more powerful in the formation of our Federal government than fear of European hegemony over our own interests. It is essentially treason to undermine the proper function of that Federal system expressly to undermine people's right to participate in political discourse and legislative initiatives based on their religious beliefs.

Atheistic beliefs do not take precedence by default. You are supposed to be required to form consensus first. The Constitution is null and void otherwise, and we owe one another nothing any longer until the government is once again made whole and legitimate. As a peaceful and concerned citizen, this does not give me license to be come a violent cad, but the fact remains that atheists have essentially disenfranchised Christians in this nation. All the notable issues that Christians are concerned with are now either fully dictated through court activism or currently being undermined by this exact same tactic.

I do not assent.
 
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BigBadWlf

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To BigBadwlf,
But again I wasn’t referring to what I thought but what God thinks.

You aren’t God. And same gendered marriages are marriages whether you like them or not
They certainly aren’t according to the Biblical testimony of God, but I thought prop 8 meant the state didn’t recognise them.
Yes they have many. Gee you have none that countenances it.

As was shown earlier its easier for a paedophile to justify paedophilia from the Bible than same sex relationships, they have less to deny.
this same tactic is and has been used by racists for generations. A racist will compare a person of color to a criminal, substance abuser or as a sexual deviant in order to try to justify their own petty personal prejudices and hatreds.


Again and again we see this attempt to de-humanize a minority from those trying to justify discrimination. By claiming a minority is diseased or degenerate, or obsessed with sex, or any other number of hate based claims then it reduces that minority (and everyone else) and supposedly makes discrimination somehow justified.
Such horrible claims were made against blacks and Jews and the handicapped and even though the target minority has changed little else has
 
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BigBadWlf

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To Maren,
But there is no such thing as same sex marriage in law of many states and neither in the UK, so don&#8217;t you mean civil partnerships?

Ok you mean civil partnerships then as there correctly is no such things as same sex marriage in the UK and most parts of the world.
There was no such thing as interracial marriage for years in most states ...that did not mean that interracial marriages did not exist or were not marriages
 
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BigBadWlf

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Green pink does not exist. Same gendered sexual intercourse does not exist.
Yes it does

Same gendered marriage will not truly exist even if the term is applied to same gendered couples.
Yes it does

It is an attempt to further confuse the issue of family,
Like the families of married gays and lesbians


Same sex "marriage" destroys marriage by making the word meaningless, and hence undermining the significance of the institution.

For years I have been asking for a concrete observable example of just how equality damages opposite sex marriage. No one has ever provided such an example

Control the language to control the mind. It doesn't really work, but it is annoying to have to deal with this over and over again in a supposedly free nation.

It is interesting that you rant about a “free nation” while advocating that minorities be denied the very freedom you go on about
 
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Braunwyn

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Untrue. Constitutionally, the government neither estalishes a state religion nor stands in the way of the free exercise thereof. In situations where rival religious values clash, they are to be resolved through the process with the Federal government taking no stand one way or the other. This would typically result in the more popular religion, philosophy, or belief systems often having their way with the possibility of peaceful change over time as society evolves.

American Atheists do not like having to depend on convincing people of things, though, and find this democratic method distasteful. They want us to be more like Europe, but they do not want to have to go to the trouble of changing the minds of the citizenry so that our values actually reflect the same values as Europeans. We simply are to be forced to change.

There was probably no single driving force more powerful in the formation of our Federal government than fear of European hegemony over our own interests. It is essentially treason to undermine the proper function of that Federal system expressly to undermine people's right to participate in political discourse and legislative initiatives based on their religious beliefs.

Atheistic beliefs do not take precedence by default. You are supposed to be required to form consensus first. The Constitution is null and void otherwise, and we owe one another nothing any longer until the government is once again made whole and legitimate. As a peaceful and concerned citizen, this does not give me license to be come a violent cad, but the fact remains that atheists have essentially disenfranchised Christians in this nation. All the notable issues that Christians are concerned with are now either fully dictated through court activism or currently being undermined by this exact same tactic.

I do not assent.

"but the fact remains that atheists have essentially disenfranchised Christians in this nation"


Come again? Monotheists make up 80-90% of the US population.
 
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Maren

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No one is arguing there is no affection involved in men and women coming together.

Except that historically (if we really want to talk about traditional marriage) it was never required. Rather, the parents arranged the marriage for children regardless of affection. Again, it was heterosexuals that changed this over the previous few centuries.

Rather, it is a unique need that they have that, once joined physically, a host of other duties and obligations begin to unfold, especially in regard to procreation.

And same-sex couples have the exact same needs as childless opposite sex couples.

I've explained my concerns many times over.

No, you really haven't. You typically just say that it would make the problems in family law worse -- you've never explained exactly how it would make things in family law worse or harder to correct.

You for your part have skirted over the issue of the difference between coitus and other sexual behaviors.

Because there is no reason for me to do so, unless you are claiming the only reason men and women marry are for sex (which you largely show is not true by mentioning unmarried couples below who have sex).

My initial statement is pretty straight forward. To assign the term "marriage" to things that are not actually marriage simply confuses the issue.

How? For that matter, there are writings in the past (and even present) about how feelings of romantic love should not be confused with marriage -- does that make the fact most people now relate the two wrong? Again, you are making an assertion and not showing why it causes a problem. Not to mention that the definition has already been changed, regardless of your acceptance.

We already have evidence that meddling with marriage, making it less authoritative, holding people accountable or not accountable based on whim rather than on a true understanding of the relationship between men, women, and offspring, has had catastrophic consequences for millions of children brought up in the modern, fractured, ill defined "family" that has grown out of the sloppy application of the "no fault divorce" concept.

Actually, we don't have that evidence. We know that marriage is not lasting as long today; yet most of the evidence is actually that women have much more power today than in previous decades. Previously, a woman was solely dependent on her husband for her income. Regardless of no-fault marriage laws, it is unlikely that the divorce rate would be high today if women still largely did not work outside the home and still typically earned a fraction of what men do.

Women were to be protected from violent husbands because of this change. Instead, women are now merely beaten by live ins rather than husbands, and more mischief than could have been imagined has followed besides.

So, what, you want to force them to get married? Further, to borrow an argument many use against hate law statues, why do they need to be married. My understanding is that a woman (or a man) is protected by assault laws, that they are not married does not absolve the man of guilt.

Yet if I cannot "prove" a distinction between heterosexual couples and homosexual couples where family law is concerned, I am supposed to just accept that I am basing my opinion on nonsense...?

You've explained nothing. A big part of the entire gay agenda is to be required to explain nothing. It is all about demonizing anyone who has questions, this avoiding having to answer any questions.

No this is funny -- on the one hand you state you cannot prove any real difference but then you blast me for having explained nothing? I'm not the one making the assertions here, rather I'm pointing out where you use poor logic and unsupported claims. And in what way have I demonized you?

In fact, the burden of proof is never on the minority but rather on those trying to restrict equal rights. Blacks were not required to "prove" they were equal before being granted equal rights -- in fact at the time of the 13th and 14th amendments many who voted (possibly even Lincoln, based on his writings) believed Blacks were inferior.
 
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Maren

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"but the fact remains that atheists have essentially disenfranchised Christians in this nation"


Come again? Monotheists make up 80-90% of the US population.

I think it is time to quote Jon Stewart again:

Yes, the long war on Christianity. I pray that one day we may live in an America where Christians can worship freely! In broad daylight! Openly wearing the symbols of their religion.... perhaps around their necks? And maybe - dare I dream it? - maybe one day there can be an openly Christian President. Or, perhaps, 43 of them. Consecutively.
 
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