Father James Martin Speaks Out Against Catholics Who Hate Gays

[mark46]

Maybe. But most of the hate I see is from the gays, not at the gays. To say otherwise is disingenuous at the very least. How about calling for love from the gays?

Christian love should not depend on what the other does. Hating gays because we perceive that they hate us is not a Christian attitude.

 

[ebia]

Christian love should not depend on what the other does. Hating gays because we perceive that they hate us is not a Christian attitude.

"You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy'".

Maybe they forgot to read the rest of the verse.

 

[Rhamiel]

"You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy'".

Maybe they forgot to read the rest of the verse.

yeah, a lot of people do not love their enemies

this is not really a "conservative vs. liberal" issue
I mean, this is not only the problem of one group
everyone has a problem loving their enemy, it is a hard thing to do

 

[ebia]

yeah, a lot of people do not love their enemies

this is not really a "conservative vs. liberal" issue
I mean, this is not only the problem of one group
everyone has a problem loving their enemy, it is a hard thing to do

No disagreement from me on that.

But "liberal" christians, in my experience, don't tend to fall back on "he did it first" so much.

 

[Simon_Templar]

So, some thoughts.

#1 - The starting point must always be love. There is simply no question that we are not free to indulge hate for other people. In my experience, both personally and in observing others, this is easily the hardest Christian teaching and it is one that almost every Christian fails at to some degree. We all need to take this seriously and to examine ourselves against this standard.

#2 - If you think there are no conservatives out there who genuinely hate gay people (or other minority groups) you are fooling yourself. There are A LOT of people out there who hate those they consider to be the enemy or opposed to them. EVERY group has plenty of people who are based and motivated more by hate than by love. This is just reality. Denying it does no one any good.

#3 - Liberals and homosexuals are just as prone to hate and intolerance as anyone else. They participate and perpetuate in the bigotry and us vs. them polarized mentality of our society as much as any group.

#4 - constantly telling someone that they hate people because they disagree with them does nothing but irritate them and convince them that you and your view point are unreasonable, propaganda, or just outright lies. If there is one thing that people should learn from the last decade or so, it is that continually accusing people of hate and discrimination does nothing but cause more division and more actual hate and discrimination.

Sadly this is an effective way to play politics and to build a career for yourself but anyone who actually wants to foster love and understanding should never do this. It's much like the concept that violence begets violence. You can't solve division by further dividing people, or conflict by getting in people's faces and calling them names.

# 5 - Liberals have used division, bigotry, and hatred as fuel for their political power. They have fostered those things (whether intentionally or unintentionally). However, conservatives, through reactionism, have dehumanized minorities by refusing to look at events and issues as human stories, and engaging with the people involved. Rather they insist on making every event and every issue a political issue. They frequently subordinate the human side of events to the political need to defend their ideology.

# 6 - Disagreeing with someone doesn't mean you hate them and loving someone doesn't mean you agree with them.

 

[mark46]

Matthew 25:32-46New King James Version (NKJV)
32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take Youin, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him,[a] saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

[mark46]

I have seen hatred towards homosexuals from some Christians

and that is a despicable thing

I have also seen hatred and envy towards the wealthy among some Christians too
I have also seen hate and contempt towards the poor among some Christians
I have seen hate for immigrants from some Christians
and I have seen hate for political enemies among some Christians

the most disturbing hate I have seen has been the hate in my own heart
because I know that God has treated me with such tender mercy and I have no excuse to hate anyone

Yes, we should always look at the log in our own eye, and ask for God's Mercy.

However, I think that your post has three parts.

In the first sentence, you address the subject at hand. Christians have shown hatred and that is indeed despicable.

In the second part, you state other hatred as if this is somehow relevant. IMHO, the fact that Christians commit other sins of hate is not relevant to the subject at hand. Many Christians show hate for homosexuals. Many surely do not show Christian love for homosexuals.

In the third, you talk about our personal need to ask for God's Mercy, as we should, always.
========================
THE OPEN QUESTION
There are literally thousands of actions that Christians can focus upon. As you say, self inspection is first.

How should we treat homosexuals? It seems that we have become Calvinists and Puritans. Our first instinct is to make sure that the homosexual knows that we consider his or her actions sinful and that they will go to hell if they continue in their actions.

We used to call this "hell and brimstone" preaching. Some still believe that this approach helps bring folks to the faith. I don't think that it does. It may make us feel better. We have done our duty. Now, these folks can go to hell. IMHO, this is NOT the Christian approach. Scripture teaches that we are to be known by our LOVE. We do not bring people to the faith. That job is that of the Spirit.

How should we act so that sinners and nonbelievers will ask the reason for our faith? How should we act so that folks will want to know what we have and they do not? How should we model Christianity? Is it really WORDS of admonition that will bring folks to seeking Jesus. I think not. The teaching of the Church is that we should act like Christians and be ready to give the reason for our faith at any time. As a follower of Saint Francis once said, use words only when really necessary.

 

[FireDragon76]

Of all the conservative Christians I know, conservative Catholics seem to be the ones with the least amount of actual animosity towards gays people.

You want to see nasty, go look at someone like Robert Gagnon, the conservative Reformed theologian/scholar. The conservative Reformed communities have some pretty nasty attitudes towards gays, probably because they are less likely to distinguish between a person's disposition and their behavior, and because that tradition has more of a tradition of theonomy and shaming "sinners".

 

[LivingWordUnity]

We should love the sinner but hate the sin and ask, "What would Jesus do?". But, at a minimum, we have to be open to God's word in Scripture where God instructs us on how to do this. Since we are not God we can't lean on our own ways and then expect for it to be approved by God when He judges us.

 

[mark46]

Of all the conservative Christians I know, conservative Catholics seem to be the ones with the least amount of actual animosity towards gays people.

You want to see nasty, go look at someone like Robert Gagnon, the conservative Reformed theologian/scholar. The conservative Reformed communities have some pretty nasty attitudes towards gays, probably because they are less likely to distinguish between a person's disposition and their behavior, and because that tradition has more of a tradition of theonomy and shaming "sinners".

When will we get beyond excusing actions by saying there are a lot worse sinners than me?

 

[LivingWordUnity]

When will we get beyond excusing actions by saying there are a lot worse sinners than me?

Who is above asking themselves that question? Who in the world is without sin?

 

[brewmama]

An example of such "hate" please?

Seriously?


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/...ence-thomas-clown-in-blackface_n_7719110.html

http://www.courageouspriest.com/homosexual-activist-disrupt-mass-refused-communion

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/a...-gay-activists-shout-curses-and-douse-him-wit

http://chimpreports.com/gays-attack-pastor-kiganda-at-london-church/

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/san...urch-attacked-pro-homosexual-marriage-vandals

http://www.advocate.com/society/technology/2012/04/25/gay-vandals-attack-conservative-oregon-church

http://toprightnews.com/gay-group-d...-be-shut-down-for-opposing-same-sex-marriage/

http://www.catholic.org/news/national/story.php?id=30504

http://www.massresistance.org/docs/gen/08c/Prop8/church_attacks.html

http://www.wnd.com/2011/10/356361/

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils in America/Sodomy/riot.htm

http://www.onenewsnow.com/persecuti...-ransack-tag-nc-churches-with-pro-gay-slogans

http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovemen...no_more_churches_mike_huckabee_goes_on_attack

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/e...shocked-as-gay-activist-disrupts-mass-with-vi

etc, etc, etc

 

[LivingWordUnity]

These pictures are from some years back.

 

[Red Fox]

I'm not surprised that some homosexuals are retaliating against the continuous religious oppression and bigotry. Are we to expect these people to just sit back and continue to take the mistreatment, demonizing and harassment from religious people and do nothing in retaliation? People are going to fight against social injustice, no matter what form that injustice takes or even if it's hidden behind the guise of religious freedom. I don't agree with some of their tactics, but I don't blame them for fighting back.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

I'm not in the least bit surprised that there are some homosexuals who are retaliating against continuous religious oppression and bigotry.

The difference is that the Catholic goal wasn't to win so that we can spit on the one who lost. We were only concerned about losing our religious liberty and about the harm that a culture of hedonism would cause to children.

 

[brewmama]

Instead of worrying about how society may or may not react to the perception that some Christian groups and individuals use religion as a pretense for espousing hated and bigotry towards gays, perhaps we should instead worry about the hatred and bigotry that may exist and stamp it out as best we can in our own religious communities. After all, Christianity is in part supposed to be about having love in our hearts and trying to do the right thing, even if we technically have the right not to.

So when support for traditional marriage is deemed "hate", what do you do? That's what hate is, evidently.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

So when support for traditional marriage is deemed "hate", what do you do? That's what hate is, evidently.

Hate was redefined so that all of a sudden Catholics could be called hateful.

 

[mark46]

The difference is that the Catholic goal wasn't to win so that we can spit on the one who lost. We were only concerned about losing our religious liberty and about the harm that a culture of hedonism would cause to children.

If the Church is ONLY concerned with religious liberty and the harm to the culture, then we should be much less apoplectic I'n our arguments. If this is the case, we are merely discussing a difference of political opinion with regard to "harm" to the culture.

Silly me. I thought the Church was concerned promoting the Church's view of moral conduct.

In any case, the Supreme Court did NOT make its decision on moral grounds. It decided that homosexuals are persons and should be provided 14th Amendment protections. [and in anticipation, unborn children are NOT deemed to be persons].

 

[LivingWordUnity]

As an example of our culture of hedonism, just yesterday there a Nicki Minaj concert playing on one of the television channels. She was doing the concert wearing just a skimpy bra and panties. And all of the girls in the audience were also wearing nothing but a skimpy bra and panties. Are Christians the only ones today who see something wrong with that? Am I a hateful bigot for seeing something wrong with that?

 

[brewmama]

Who made you the arbiter of who is and isn't Christian?



There is no scriptural or historical record of Jesus saying a single word about homosexuality. Not one.

Oh for Pete's sake. He said marriage was between a a man and woman, and he didn't need to go further because everyone KNEW it already. He didn't say anything about incest, inappropriate behavior with animals, necrophilia, rape either. Does that mean they are OK?