Evil in Paradise

[beleeue firstati]

Would you want a thief living in your house? God is holy and he can't have sin in heaven.

The Lord bless you a 1000 times more as much as you have in your life now.
amen

 

[darknova]

So then, you admit that you have no standard by which to declare it evil, but you declare it evil, anyway?

I don't know if there is a standard, but I say you claim that there is objective good and evil. I want to know if it makes sense to talk of an afterlife so I want to see if it makes sense with other things believers believe.

How will you know if it's consistent if you don't have a standard by which to judge it?

I mean many would claim that there is a heaven and that the is a reason for the evil in this world. I want to know why there is evil in this world (according to Christians) but not heaven.

We will have the free will in Heaven to do whatever is within our nature to do.

Why does our nature currently allow us or cause us to do evil? Why were we made like this?

So it comes back to what the gods consider wrong (as an answer to that age-old question), rather than good and evil being independent of the creator(s). As to why "evil" is on earth but not in heaven, the answer lies in the perfection of the soul.

Sorry I phrased my last post badly. I don't think God tells us what is good and evil and therefore it is so; if there is a God then I think the moral law is objective. I said the same thing when I was Christian.

So the soul is perfect in heaven? Why isn't it perfect now?

 

[darknova]

You are correct for the most part.

Sin (evil) has purpose here on earth that is not needed in heaven.

Humans have an earthly objective that cannot be fulfilled in heaven.

God is doing and allowing all He can to help willing humans fulfill their earthly objective. That “doing and allowing” includes: Christ going to the cross, satan roaming the earth, tragedies of all kind, death, hell, heaven, and sin.

What is the human objective that makes sin and suffering necessary, or at least highly possible?

The question of evil is a bit complex. But the old 'Hanes' commercials give a humorous clue. 'It isn't 'Hane's' (sin) til I (God) say it's 'Hane's'. In other words God 'creates' 'sin' by arbitrarily 'imputing' 'wrongdoing' to certain acts. and attitudes. He then created a creature, man, that would suffer for committing these sins, or benefit by abstaining from them. All part of a greater purpose of course.
The garden of Eden was a type of the 'paradise lost' in the rebellion of Lucifer. The rebellion in the garden was a reinactment, by mortal man, of the original angelic rebellion, and had the same result: paradise was no longer available to them. God was showing mortal man what the angels had, and lost, the damage done, and the reason why. Lots more to it of course.

Personally I can't accept that God have said things such as genocide, rape and torture were good. Don't we do good because we care for the other person, not just because we have random feelings that arbitrarily tell us we should?

Would you want a thief living in your house? God is holy and he can't have sin in heaven.

Why does He allow sin in His reality? God lives in heaven no more than anywhere else because a spaceless God seems to make the most sense.

 

[drich0150]

I can accept this. Wouldn't you say it is free will to be able to choose between two immoral options as well though?

Morality is man's attempt to achieve God's ultimate standard of righteousness. To choose between two immoral options is really a non sequitur, because once one chooses to be outside the Expressed will of God then the choice he makes ultimately come from the same place. (Sin or Evil)

So your point is that the physical world is where we make the choice about our eternal destiny and after that free will is taken away?

Not the ability to choose, but one's ability to sin.

So there is no free will in heaven?

Their will be no sin in Heaven, but Choice will abound.

Why was free will given to people in the first place and why aren't Christians free from evil desires when they make the choice to follow God?

The same reason Adam and Eve were given the tree of knowledge. So they would not burn with desire to know what it is like to be outside the Expressed will of God. We have been given these 70 or 80 years to see what life is like with sin and how much pain and suffering it causes. This way when we move on into eternity we will not wonder or want all that "sin" will have to offer us.

How do you explain suffering caused by nature too?

After the fall of man we were cast from the perfect world God had created for us. There by forcing us to live in a world where we are subject to "natural suffering." Again all apart of the consequences of sin.

 

[bling]

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What is the human objective that makes sin and suffering necessary, or at least highly possible?



.

Our “objective” while here on earth is to just accept God’s gift as it was given as pure charity.

God is not trying to get you to do something, but is trying to give you something.

That “something” is the most powerful force in all universes since it is the force that compels God to do all he does.

God’s Love compelled God to create beings that could Love like He Loves and did it for the sake of those few that would accept His Love. There are some things that God just cannot do like create a being that was never created and the one important to us is instinctively create us with Godly type Love since that would be robotic type Love. God will also not force his love on us since that would be unloving on God’s part (there has to be reasonable alternatives to make it a choice [the perceived pleasures of sin]). The easiest way for us to get this Love is through accepting it as a pure charitable gift. The problem being humans (due in part to the needed survival instinct) do not like accepting Charity from a Giver that paid a huge price for the gift.

The easiest way for humans to accept God’s charity (Love) is out of a huge need and that need is the relief from the burden of hurting others in the past (sin). By accepting God’s forgiveness we accept God’s Love (mercy/grace/charity) and thus we will Love much since Jesus has taught us (we also see this in our own lives) “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”

Once we accept Godly type Love, we can truly Love and have the privilege and honor of Loving God (the forgiver) and others (God’s children) with all our heart, soul, mind, and energy.

 

[drich0150]

I hope you are willing to back up the validity of your 'review'.

Not sure what you are asking. Dark nova and I were apart of a similar conversation sometime back where these definitions were first discussed. If you are looking for the scripture to these simple definitions, do a search and look up the thread in question.

6. Thou shall not murder

What does this have to do with the price of beans?

Key word being 'premeditation'. When God created the flood, when God issued the order for every first born son to be killed, his acts were by definition premeditated. He knew exactly what would happen, and he 'killed' (by definition) other human beings under this premeditation. This is murder, by definition.

So what? what does this have to do with what is being discussed?

If God's will were to exist absent of sin, he would not murder any human being. Unfortunately, he's killed millions under his direct order. A tough pill to swallow, but such is reality.

Are you addressing the right thread? If you want to start another thread I will be anxious to address these points, but as it is, I am not willing to allow you hijack this thread.

Hearsay. Show me actual proof or stop attempting to argue atheists.

What kind of proof do you seek? are you willing to do a simple search for this proof?

That is a horribly depressing definition of free will.

Actually it is not. There was only one will in the universe at the beginning of time, and it belonged to God. He created all things and put the under His expressed will. Then He created man, and gave man an opportunity to choose for himself whether to be under the His will or our own. Look what happened the first time we choose to be in our own will. What did God label this effort? What were the consequences? How was the conflict resolved? (I am hinting at the Biblical "proof" you sought.)

I love it when religious people call out atheists for being close-minded, bitter, and hopeless; yet a Christian will define free will as the ability to do wrong. I really do not like insulting other people, but your philosophy of humanity is utterly disgusting and deplorable. Shame on you for giving humanity such little credit, we'll see who you're begging for when you acquire cancer, the lovely random and pointless lethal disease God has bestowed us with.

Apparently You know very little of God, the plan of salvation or His love and mercy. Sin is not a way for the self righteous to condemn another, or wish cancer on one who does not think like she does.

Sin is the identifier God gave us to show us that our actions have disqualified us from being in His perfect righteousness. Meaning we are not worthy to be with God. With this knowledge of sin, it gives us an opportunity to not be forever condemned. Because we have been given the gift of atonement through the blood of Christ, and to receive this atonement all we must do is repent of these sins and accept the gift that has been given to us..

However if one's pride or foolish assessment of one's own righteousness does not reflect the sin deeply held in one's own life, calling that person to repentance. then that person will be doomed by their own self righteousness.

I will freely admit that this biblically based view of sin/free will does not fit a pop culture representation of it, but that is kinda the point is it not?

Spare me the "death is a gift" response, and give me something with evidential substance. If you cannot, don't bother replying to anything I say.

Again you ask for evidence, but do not give any parameters.

Nope, you're describing a "test" scenario. We are given a choice, and tested upon that choice. If we make the wrong choice, we are eternally damned. If we make the right choice, we are given eternal paradise.

actually no, thinking our life as a test is an elementary school understanding of a medieval doctrine. We have been given a very simple choice (if you have read the bible you would understand this to be true)

In a nut shell the choice asks where to you wish to spend eternity?
The "torment" of hell is only in contrast of one who can take full advantage of what God can offer.

I would say if you are not in this position, then the greatest thing heaven can offer will be Hell to you. If God wanted to have a very direct relationship with you, and you tried your whole life to put distance between yourself and Him the entire time you in this life. Then wouldn't being his direct servant be a terrible thing for you? If you hated someone wouldn't being their slave be about the worst thing that could happen to you?

I know you can't mentally do this, but at least try to imagine that you are God and that you have infinite power to create the universe, billions of galaxies with billions of stars, planets of all different types, and at least 1 planet that contains BILLIONS of forms of life/existence. Given the sheer science it takes to come to these factual conclusions, how can you eternally condemn trillions of species to either vanish from existence, or burn in Hellfire forever? You are the most powerful being that exists, and you know that. Why condemn anybody to Hell?

I kinda answered the question before you asked it. But in case you missed it here it is again: Heaven would be Hell for those who do not like God. "Hell" or the void or the pit is the only place where one can be separated from the God of creation (Because Hell is the absents of God and or any part of creation.)

Isn't it just messed up at that point? Even if "justified", an all-loving God would not create Hell for ANYBODY. That is pure logic and fact.

You are confusing logic with emotion, or your own personal fear of hell. Here is an example to help you make this distinction.
If for some reason the descriptions of Heaven and Hell were somehow reversed before the bible was written, and Heaven were a "fiery pit" But God lived there, and Hell would be what we know paradise to be,(but no God) would you still want to go to "Heaven" so badly just to be with God?(The Fiery pit) Why not?

Heaven has nothing to do with it's surroundings, and everything to do with the presents of God. Likewise the descriptions of Hell only describe the panic and terror of being consumed by the nothingness that is the lack of God or any part of creation. In otherwords Hell is only described from the vantage point of what Heaven/God offers. Some may like Hell. It all depends on how much you hate God.

Bottom line either you want to be a servant of God for eternity or you do not. If you were thinking to get into the whole "child of God" argument look at how Hebrew children were treated. Know This is what is meant by Child of God, and not the current popular standard of spoiled children.

Again with premeditation and testing. Why must God test us when he knows what the outcome will be? What is the point of a 'test' in that case?

It's not for God, it is for your own sake. Where would righteousness be if He created you and sent you to Hell moments after your creation? For something He knew you would choose. As it is now when you are sent to Hell there will not be any doubt to your choices.

Garden of Eden = paradise.

The Garden was a paradise on Earth.

Heaven = paradise.

Not unless you are a Muslim or are suck on a medieval theology or understanding. Heaven is the City of God or The place in which God resides. "We" are to resided on a second or recreated earth.

In the Garden, we were given the choice between good and evil...in Heaven, we must also be given the choice between good and evil.

why? Do you have book chapter and verse to back up this assertion?

That means we can commit an evil action in Heaven, since it is merely an expression of our free will. Heaven is no longer perfect, and neither is paradise.

This is all a really interesting take on your own personal version of Heaven but does not represent anything close to what scripture says.

 

[darknova]

The same reason Adam and Eve were given the tree of knowledge. So they would not burn with desire to know what it is like to be outside the Expressed will of God. We have been given these 70 or 80 years to see what life is like with sin and how much pain and suffering it causes. This way when we move on into eternity we will not wonder or want all that "sin" will have to offer us.

So the reason there is sin now is to show us how bad it is to live a life outside of goodness? That makes sense if immense pain for some in this life is made up for my eternal joy in the next.

After the fall of man we were cast from the perfect world God had created for us. There by forcing us to live in a world where we are subject to "natural suffering." Again all apart of the consequences of sin.

I don't think Genesis 1-3 happened so I can't accept this answer, but the last one was interesting.

 

[darknova]

Our “objective” while here on earth is to just accept God’s gift as it was given as pure charity.

God is not trying to get you to do something, but is trying to give you something.

That “something” is the most powerful force in all universes since it is the force that compels God to do all he does.

God’s Love compelled God to create beings that could Love like He Loves and did it for the sake of those few that would accept His Love. There are some things that God just cannot do like create a being that was never created and the one important to us is instinctively create us with Godly type Love since that would be robotic type Love. God will also not force his love on us since that would be unloving on God’s part (there has to be reasonable alternatives to make it a choice [the perceived pleasures of sin]). The easiest way for us to get this Love is through accepting it as a pure charitable gift. The problem being humans (due in part to the needed survival instinct) do not like accepting Charity from a Giver that paid a huge price for the gift.

The easiest way for humans to accept God’s charity (Love) is out of a huge need and that need is the relief from the burden of hurting others in the past (sin). By accepting God’s forgiveness we accept God’s Love (mercy/grace/charity) and thus we will Love much since Jesus has taught us (we also see this in our own lives) “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”

Once we accept Godly type Love, we can truly Love and have the privilege and honor of Loving God (the forgiver) and others (God’s children) with all our heart, soul, mind, and energy.

So the point is to accept Gods love and sin is allowed so that we have free will. We don't sin in heaven because we are locked into our choice of following God?

 

[drich0150]

So the reason there is sin now is to show us how bad it is to live a life outside of goodness?

No, We are given the ability to "Choose" in this life, so we will not wonder what it is to Choose in the next. This ability or right is what bred discontent in Lucifer and his followers leading up to their fall.

That makes sense if immense pain for some in this life is made up for my eternal joy in the next.

Actually "Pain" is a simply consequence to many choices outside the Expressed will of God.

I don't think Genesis 1-3 happened so I can't accept this answer, but the last one was interesting.

Whether you think it happened or not, if we are speaking of the God of the bible and his precepts then "we" must take into account ALL or the WHOLE of scripture. Otherwise know that if you take only the parts of the bible that will allow you to judge God unfairly or to judge Him in an unfair light and will not allow the whole of scripture to find justification or your answers, then you too will be judged according to the measure you have judged Him.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Why was evil allowed in the physical world but not in heaven? What is acceptable about evil in the universe but not evil in heaven?

Also how does this relate to suffering caused by nature, not just humans?

Evil, or sin, leads to death. As there is no death in the spiritual (spirit) kingdom of God, evil has no place there. That heaven is the place of eternal life. The first presence of 'evil' there was quickly cast out by God. That God even allowed the presence of Satan (see Job) didn't mean that evil had entered heaven either. Satan came back to earth to commit the evil that God allowed. Evil is associated with mortality, death. Even nature demonstrates the nature of Satan (and the wrath of God). It's attractive on the outside, concealing the carnage that takes place within. Man and earth were made subject to the 'bondage of death'. When sin is finally abolished, death will be abolished.

 

[elman]

Evil, or sin, leads to death. As there is no death in the spiritual (spirit) kingdom of God, evil has no place there. That heaven is the place of eternal life. The first presence of 'evil' there was quickly cast out by God. That God even allowed the presence of Satan (see Job) didn't mean that evil had entered heaven either. Satan came back to earth to commit the evil that God allowed. Evil is associated with mortality, death. Even nature demonstrates the nature of Satan (and the wrath of God). It's attractive on the outside, concealing the carnage that takes place within. Man and earth were made subject to the 'bondage of death'. When sin is finally abolished, death will be abolished.

Ezekiel 18 is talking about spiritual death when it says the soul that sins is the one that shall die and not live. Physical death comes to both the righteous and the wicked for it is appointed unto man once to die. Therefore the wages or consequences of our sin in not our physical death, but our spiritual death. It is not from physical death that we must be born again as Jesus taught, but from spiritual death that we are to be reborn. God was talking about spiritual death when He told Adam the day you eat thereof you will surly die.

 

[bling]

So the point is to accept Gods love and sin is allowed so that we have free will. We don't sin in heaven because we are locked into our choice of following God?

No, sin is allowed for the nonbeliever so he will be burdened by his transgressions (the hurting of others) to the point of having the greatest desire and best (for him) opportunity to accept God’s relief (forgiveness). Of course accepting God’s forgiveness will automatically result in your Loving much “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”

It is not that we are “locked in”, but that we already have Godly type Love that was accepted on earth where there are alternative choices, so we can make a true choice on earth that cannot or will not be made in heaven.

 

[razeontherock]

I want to know why there is evil in this world (according to Christians) but not heaven.


Why does our nature currently allow us or cause us to do evil? Why were we made like this?

So the soul is perfect in heaven? Why isn't it perfect now?

Just checking in to make sure these very important and simple questions have been answered satisfactorily

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Ezekiel 18 is talking about spiritual death when it says the soul that sins is the one that shall die and not live. Physical death comes to both the righteous and the wicked for it is appointed unto man once to die. Therefore the wages or consequences of our sin in not our physical death, but our spiritual death. It is not from physical death that we must be born again as Jesus taught, but from spiritual death that we are to be reborn. God was talking about spiritual death when He told Adam the day you eat thereof you will surly die.

Amen.