Requirements of Reaching Heaven

Cerraco

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I also understand that a rigid, systemitized form of Christianity Theology is highly problematic. However, that isn't to say that we all know with historical certainity that important "events" depicted in the Bible could not have happened.

Since you're inviting questions here by your statements, I'm going to ask: Which events exactly, other than those questionable ones in the first eleven chapters of Genesis, do you think "could not have happened?"
Adam and Eve. Talking snakes. Garden of Eden. Noah's ark, and the dude somehow getting two of every animal on a large boat some guy built himself.
No one just gets a free ticket to paradise.
And that's perfectly understandable.
I've already addressed that. You're response doesn't sound like you've actually engaged, read and understood all of what I've said in previous posts.

So, do you think Paul the Apostle should be in Hell? If so, which Ethical Framework are you subscribing to? There more than one. In fact, for those who study Ethics, we know there nearly a dozen competing frameworks. Which one "should" all of us accept and adhere to?
I haven't read too much about him. I think that depends on how genuinely sorry he is. Didn't he order someone's wrongly given execution? If Paul feels the agonizing guilt and pain, and perfectly understands what he's done, then... I don't know, maybe he could have paradise. I think he should be made to suffer what he caused (which is something commonly seen in NDEs) so he really gets the picture. If he doesn't get it, then maybe hell.
I also addressed that earlier. You seem to not be engaging the details of the various complex points I've made. Until you're ready to engage, you're persistence in ignoring what I'm saying just sabotages my attempt to communicate with you.
Alright then, sorry to ask this, but can you copy and paste parts of your posts I missed? Or at least those parts you want me to respond to?

I'm also seeing other posts saying, "If you reject God, you reject life." and stuff like that. Okay, an atheist/agnostic/human secularist/etc. would just say that science itself gave us life. There's proof of science, but no concrete proof of God. Can God truly blame them? But hey, they still go to hell I guess...
 
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Aussie Pete

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I've been debating with someone who is one of the most diehard Christians I've ever known, and she believes (like nearly all Christians) that you must accept Christ and repent to enter heaven. Now, even as an atheist, I could sort of... almost... strangely accept that. However, she also believes that those who don't believe, even if they are neutral or good people, will suffer eternal hell. She thinks that only the blood of Christ can get you to heaven, and that's it. Nothing else. No exceptions.

Here's the problem, some of this seems extremely one-sided and unfair. I get we're all sinners/imperfect/etc., but condemning someone to an eternity of agony is just too much. That doesn't seem like a balanced punishment. I'm sure this is an easy topic for many Christians, because they believe that they're "set" and got the "hook up" to the good afterlife, while everyone else is on the fast track to hell. What if someone is raised under a different religion? What if someone never heard of Christ at all, or at least doesn't understand him? There are a lot of variables in the world, and it doesn't seem fair to a lot of people that they suffer forever just for not following some strict guidelines.

If someone has lived a disgusting, thieving and pain-spreading lifestyle, abusing his wife and kids until age 60, then repents and lives a "sin-free" life and dies at 70. He just gets to enter paradise? But if someone's raised Jewish, hardly done anything wrong but simply doesn't believe in Christ, that person just gets dropped in hell? Well gee, that doesn't sound very fair. See, if hell was for a limited time for some people, that would make sense, but eternity seems like too much.
You do not comprehend God's holiness and righteousness. There are many human activities that require absolute purity. I've spent some time in a "clean room". The rigamorole to even get in when it was idle was substantial. They made injectable drugs and antivirals. Some areas required workers to shower before dressing in complete protective clothing.

God is infinitely pure. No contamination is acceptable. More than this, every human being is born dead in sin, no matter how nice or noble they might be. Would you have a dead body in your home for the rest of your life?

There are in effect three judgements. God determines firstly if you are a sinner or not. If you are a sinner, the level of punishment will basically depend on what you've done in this life. That is the first and second judgements. Should a person be born again, then he/she qualifies for heaven. That is the first judgement also. Those who are born again will also be judged on their lives while on this earth. However, this is not punishment, but rather a matter of rewards. Some who have given up much in this life for Jesus will be greatly rewarded in the next. Others will have very little. As the Lord said to me once, "No one hands out prizes to spectators".

The reality is that God is so pure and holy that no sinner would want to spend eternity in His presence. Sinners will be terrified, some even in this life.

I asked God about those who have never heard about Christ. He reminded me that the whole of creation speaks of the Creator and declares who He is, His love and power. If someone sees this and seeks God, He assured me that He would make it possible for that person to be saved. I've learned, after over 50 years, that God really is love and His power to save is beyond human comprehension. But mankind also has free will. Not all choose God's salvation. There are consequences. That is not God's fault.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Adam and Eve. Talking snakes. Garden of Eden. Noah's ark, and the dude somehow getting two of every animal on a large boat some guy built himself.
Ok. But just keep in mind that for the ancient Israelites and their Jewish descendents, it was the Exodus Event that is central to their theology; Genesis isn't central but serves as a theo-historicized, even poeticized, genealogical backdrop for Exodus and Israel's identity as God's Chosen people in the word at that time.

As for the first eleven chapters of Genesis, even if those people and events didn't take place in exactly the way depicted via the narrative, that doesn't mean these stories aren't sacred, prophetic and useful for pointing us to God in the history of the World.
I haven't read too much about him. I think that depends on how genuinely sorry he is. Didn't he order someone's wrongly given execution? If Paul feels the agonizing guilt and pain, and perfectly understands what he's done, then... I don't know, maybe he could have paradise. I think he should be made to suffer what he caused (which is something commonly seen in NDEs) so he really gets the picture. If he doesn't get it, then maybe hell.

Yes, Saul of Tarsus (Paul) was an accomplice to the stoning of Stephen, according to the book of Acts. Maybe you've read that in the past?

As for wanting people to "suffer," I'm hesitant to offer up that inclination. I do think that if an offender has cause pain and victimized others, he should face the tribunal. In Paul's case, it appears that he did "suffer" by the Hand of the Lord. But as for other last minute repentant people, some of that is addressed by Jesus' parables about the payment of the Minas and/or Talents.

Since we're on the topic, how much of the New Testament have you had the opportunity to read?
Alright then, sorry to ask this, but can you copy and paste parts of your posts I missed? Or at least those parts you want me to respond to?
Oh, don't worry about it. I just want you to realize there are like FIVE theological positions on the fate of the humanity in relation to their personal knowledge and response to Christ. Yes, five. And we need to not assume that Restrictivists have the final say. None of us do.
I'm also seeing other posts saying, "If you reject God, you reject life." and stuff like that. Okay, an atheist/agnostic/human secularist/etc. would just say that science itself gave us life. There's proof of science, but no concrete proof of God. Can God truly blame them? But hey, they still go to hell I guess...

Again, I want to point out that there are nearly TWELVE different ETHICAL frameworks and WE HAVE TO ASK: Which one is the "right one" by which everyone is supposed to make moral evaluations about everyone else in the world?

Somehow, we have way too many people who claim to know, in no uncertain terms, what the exact moral framework is by which we are ALL supposedly to make moral assessments, even about all of the things we find in the Bible regarding God and His actions. I find this situation among people everywhere to be rather odd ...
 
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ViaCrucis

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I've been debating with someone who is one of the most diehard Christians I've ever known, and she believes (like nearly all Christians) that you must accept Christ and repent to enter heaven. Now, even as an atheist, I could sort of... almost... strangely accept that. However, she also believes that those who don't believe, even if they are neutral or good people, will suffer eternal hell. She thinks that only the blood of Christ can get you to heaven, and that's it. Nothing else. No exceptions.

Here's the problem, some of this seems extremely one-sided and unfair. I get we're all sinners/imperfect/etc., but condemning someone to an eternity of agony is just too much. That doesn't seem like a balanced punishment. I'm sure this is an easy topic for many Christians, because they believe that they're "set" and got the "hook up" to the good afterlife, while everyone else is on the fast track to hell. What if someone is raised under a different religion? What if someone never heard of Christ at all, or at least doesn't understand him? There are a lot of variables in the world, and it doesn't seem fair to a lot of people that they suffer forever just for not following some strict guidelines.

If someone has lived a disgusting, thieving and pain-spreading lifestyle, abusing his wife and kids until age 60, then repents and lives a "sin-free" life and dies at 70. He just gets to enter paradise? But if someone's raised Jewish, hardly done anything wrong but simply doesn't believe in Christ, that person just gets dropped in hell? Well gee, that doesn't sound very fair. See, if hell was for a limited time for some people, that would make sense, but eternity seems like too much.

I think there are several things here that deserve being unpacked and addressed.

Firstly, one difficulty here is that because of differences in theology between different Christian traditions/denominations, and that means not all Christians are of the same mind. And very often the differences can be very nuanced--but those nuances can have major implications, which fosters continued debate among Christians. To make matters more difficult, not all Christians necessarily even understand their denomination/tradition's theology in such a way as to be able to explain it well to someone entirely outside of the Christian religion. That means that sometimes well-meaning Christians don't do a great job expressing their faith; that isn't their fault, so it's not about casting blame on them, if anything it speaks of how churches sometimes fail their people in properly informing and teaching on important theological matters. But before I digress, let's keep going.

Secondly, I'd say one of the more misunderstood ideas in Christianity, including by many well-meaning Christians, is the idea of "Heaven and Hell". There's just a lot of problems with the way we often talk about and think about "Heaven and Hell" in the modern world.

There is this idea that Heaven is this place where some people go and they get to hang out on clouds, strum harps all day long, in a realm of pure bliss forever and ever. It's where "good people" go and enjoy the benefits of enjoying a good afterlife as a reward. On the other hand, we often talk about and think about Hell is this other place where some people go, and they get punished and are forced to experience endless tortures forever in a realm of fire, smoke, brimstone, with pitchfork-wielding devils for all eternity. It's where "bad people" go, and suffer the recompense of a bad life.

When that idea then gets placed over, like a template, onto Christians talking about how salvation is found only in Jesus Christ, what often happens is that it looks like Heaven is an exclusive club only for the few people who managed to choose the right religion, and that God is going to punish people by sending them to Hell for not having won the religious lottery. That looks pretty bad, and rather gross; because it is pretty bad and it is pretty gross. And Christians don't do ourselves any favors when we think about and talk about Heaven and Hell that way.

I hope to be able to explore this more with you in further posts, but to keep things brief for now, I want to offer an alternative way of thinking about "Heaven and Hell" that I think is more accurate to historic Christian views on the subject, and in particularly, more accurate to biblical themes in general.

In an historically Christian reading of the Bible there is the unfolding narrative of how the Good Creator God who made everything, and yet some of His creations made a mess of things, is going to remain faithful toward His creation and make it whole again, to heal, restore, redeem, to save what He has made. And the way God does that is Jesus. Because we are, ourselves, broken and part of a broken creation we need to be restored, healed, and saved. To that end our sinfulness--our ways of being broken toward each other and toward the rest of God's creation and being estranged and out of communion with God--needs to be addressed, it needs to be forgiven, we need to be set free from it, to be healed of it, and ultimately brought into a place of full restoration and communion with God. If we compare the idea of human beings being God's image and likeness and the ill-effects of sin on the human being to a painting that has been worn away and distorted; salvation is the work of the original painter restoring the painting.

In Jesus God is restoring, healing, and rescuing His creation; us sinners to be sure, but also all creation. So that, in the end, when history reaches its close, all creation will be healed. We talk about "new heavens new earth" and the resurrection of the dead. Because we are talking about God literally making the whole universe as brand new, because death itself is going to be defeated as even these physical bodies of flesh will be healed of death. The biblical vision of future hope, and the one Christians have confessed belief in for the last two thousand years, is the resurrection of the body and eternal life in that future world of renewed/new creation.

Since God is drawing all things toward this direction, to where everything is going to be made new, healed, restored, rescued. What about someone who doesn't want to be part of that? I mean, truly, deep down rejects that. What does that rejection of the good, the rejection of healing, that rejection of life, that rejection of being human ultimately look like? It is that rejection of the good, that rejection of life, that rejection of healing, that rejection of being human that we can call "Hell".

One of the most well respected Christian thinkers of the 20th century, whose work has been enjoyed and praised by Christians from across many traditions (Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant alike) is C.S. Lewis. In a couple of his works we read the way that Lewis thinks about Hell, and I'd argue he's quite right in his thinking, he writes:

"Hell begins with a grumbling mood, always complaining, always blaming others... but you are still distinct from it. You may even criticize it in yourself and wish you could stop it. But there may come a day when you can no longer. Then there will be no you left to criticize the mood or even to enjoy it, but just the grumble itself, going on forever like a machine. It is not a question of God 'sending us' to hell. In each of us there is something growing, which will BE hell unless it is nipped in the bud."

Lewis also famously once said--and again, I'd argue he's right to say this--that the gates of hell are locked from the inside. If one wishes to conceive of hell in prison language, it is the inmates that have locked the doors. The doors are locked not to keep the inmates from escaping, rather the inmates have locked themselves in to keep anyone from coming in to bring them out.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Cerraco

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If a person believes this, they cross over from death to life and become a permanent born again child of God.

If a person never believes in Jesus they will die without the free gift of The Life of God and will spend eternity in the lake of fire (which is the second death).

To live with God in the next life on the new earth a person must have God's free gift of Eternal Life. If they do not, the only place they can go, is the place God has prepared for satan which is the lake of fire.
You hear that guys? If you believe in science creating life (which it sort of does) God or not, then strrrrrraight to hell. God loves you unconditionally, but only under the condition that you believe. Which... sort of... defeats the... purpose.

I'm not insulting the religion altogether, but a lot of Christian people I speak to keep trying to have everything both ways, trying to go left AND go right, being completely black AND completely white. Unconditional, infinite love doesn't have conditions. These same Christians just have these "nope, you gotta do things this exact way and that's it!" way of talking. Of course many Christians are gonna say that, because that's how the religion/Bible is. This ancient homophobic book says so, so that means it's true. Even though the book was written over 2000 years ago and seems to borrow from different types of mythology. And was written by man. So, uhh...
 
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Landon Caeli

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Confused-by-christianity

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I've been debating with someone who is one of the most diehard Christians I've ever known, and she believes (like nearly all Christians) that you must accept Christ and repent to enter heaven. Now, even as an atheist, I could sort of... almost... strangely accept that. However, she also believes that those who don't believe, even if they are neutral or good people, will suffer eternal hell. She thinks that only the blood of Christ can get you to heaven, and that's it. Nothing else. No exceptions.
...
Is the question ...
what are some alternative views to the one above??

???

Are you wondering how someone could believe that??

or you mentioned the following issues (which i paraphrase) ...
  • unjust > Good people suffer eternal pain as punishment - thus saying goodness is meaningless.
  • unjust > punishment does not fit the crime
  • unjust > not taking into account a persons moral intent. a person can be punished by chance
Are you asking christians to explain these issues you've highlighted ??
 
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