Evil in Paradise

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darknova

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Hi,

Many of the defences of God because of the problem of evil tend to say that evil is necessary or useful for some reason or another. If this is so, why is there no evil in heaven? Why was evil necessary in the universe but not in heaven for free will, personal growth, etc? Or for creationists; why is the possibility to sin necessary in eden, but not heaven? Or if it is possible in heaven, why does no one sin but they did in the perfect garden?

Edit: This is about human and natural evil and suffering.

Thanks
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Hi,

Many of the defences of God because of the problem of evil tend to say that evil is necessary or useful for some reason or another. If this is so, why is there no evil in heaven? Why was evil necessary in the universe but not in heaven for free will, personal growth, etc? Or for creationists; why is the possibility to sin necessary in eden, but not heaven? Or if it is possible in heaven, why does no one sin but they did in the perfect garden?

Thanks

You've really answered your own question. Evil is associated with the material universe, not the spiritual universe. Evil was not born in the 3rd heaven, but in the 1st and 2nd. Eden too was part of the material universe. Even my dad wouldn't allow us kids's mess to leave our bedroom and come into the rest of the house, where he reigned supreme. (He was kinds like God that way. :))
 
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Traveller and Wiley

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Hi,

Many of the defences of God because of the problem of evil tend to say that evil is necessary or useful for some reason or another. If this is so, why is there no evil in heaven? Why was evil necessary in the universe but not in heaven for free will, personal growth, etc? Or for creationists; why is the possibility to sin necessary in eden, but not heaven? Or if it is possible in heaven, why does no one sin but they did in the perfect garden?

Thanks

By what objective and authoritative standard do you judge something to be "evil"?
 
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SharonL

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Evil is not of God - the devil is king of this world - the Bible tells us that the devil took Jesus up on the mountain and showed Him as far as He could see saying - I will give all of this to you if you will bow down and worship me - if he didn't own it, he could not give it away - we live in a fallen world. Heaven is our home and there is no evil there.
 
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humblehumility

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Interesting proposition...

Most Christians would agree that Eden was 'Heaven on Earth' based on what the Bible teaches. This would mean that evil may potentially infiltrate Heaven. This is even further backed by the fact that Lucifer was a fallen angel that lived in Heaven himself. Thus, paradise is imperfect and by it's own definition, not possible.
 
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Traveller and Wiley

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Interesting proposition...

Most Christians would agree that Eden was 'Heaven on Earth' based on what the Bible teaches. This would mean that evil may potentially infiltrate Heaven. This is even further backed by the fact that Lucifer was a fallen angel that lived in Heaven himself. Thus, paradise is imperfect and by it's own definition, not possible.

Are you talking about Heaven or Paradise? Biblically speaking, they're two different places.

How does this make either one "imperfect", how did you come to that conclusion, and what objective and authoritative standard are you using to define perfection?
 
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drich0150

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Before we get started just a quick review.
Sin is anything not in the Expressed Will of God.

Evil is a malicious intent to commit sin.

Not all sin is evil but all evil is sin.

Free will is the ability to choose a path outside of God's expressed will. In other words it is the ability to sin.

We have been given freewill so we may choose were we wish to spend eternity.

Hi,Many of the defenses of God because of the problem of evil tend to say that evil is necessary or useful for some reason or another. If this is so, why is there no evil in heaven?
Because those in Heaven have chosen to be with in the Expressed will of God.

Why was evil necessary in the universe but not in heaven for free will, personal growth, etc?
Free will is the ability to sin. Then the purpose of sin is to give an individual the choice on whether or not he wants to live with God(in Heaven) under His Expressed Will.

Or for creationists; why is the possibility to sin necessary in eden, but not heaven?
Because in the Garden the option of sin was apart of it's original design. Represented by the placement of the tree of knowledge in the center of the garden. Before Adam and eve were created.

Or if it is possible in heaven, why does no one sin but they did in the perfect garden?
Again because in the garden we were given the choice.
 
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oi_antz

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Interesting proposition...

Most Christians would agree that Eden was 'Heaven on Earth' based on what the Bible teaches. This would mean that evil may potentially infiltrate Heaven. This is even further backed by the fact that Lucifer was a fallen angel that lived in Heaven himself. Thus, paradise is imperfect and by it's own definition, not possible.

That contradicts Revelation.

Revelation 21

A New Heaven and a New Earth

1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
 
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oi_antz

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Before we get started just a quick review.
Sin is anything not in the Expressed Will of God.

Evil is a malicious intent to commit sin.

Not all sin is evil but all evil is sin.

Free will is the ability to choose a path outside of God's expressed will. In other words it is the ability to sin.

We have been given freewill so we may choose were we wish to spend eternity.


Because those in Heaven have chosen to be with in the Expressed will of God.


Free will is the ability to sin. Then the purpose of sin is to give an individual the choice on whether or not he wants to live with God(in Heaven) under His Expressed Will.

Because in the Garden the option of sin was apart of it's original design. Represented by the placement of the tree of knowledge in the center of the garden. Before Adam and eve were created.


Again because in the garden we were given the choice.

drich, I believe there is capacity to exercise free will without sin. That although the potential to sin is not a consideration, there may be many options that are wholly "good" that we may exercise free will while remaining free from sin. An example might be when Eve was hungry, she might have had the opportunity to eat blueberries or strawberries and thereby she was able to exercise free will without even considering sin. So it will be in paradise, the opportunity to sin just won't be a considerable option because we will all know that sin is bad and there will be no enemy to tempt us to commit sin. So everyone will be genuinely good in paradise and we will be free to do what is good for each other and ourselves.
 
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humblehumility

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Before we get started just a quick review.

I hope you are willing to back up the validity of your 'review'.

Sin is anything not in the Expressed Will of God.



Evil is a malicious intent to commit sin.

Not all sin is evil but all evil is sin.

Free will is the ability to choose a path outside of God's expressed will. In other words it is the ability to sin.

6. Thou shall not murder

mur·der   
[mur-der] Show IPA
–noun
1.
Law . the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).

Key word being 'premeditation'. When God created the flood, when God issued the order for every first born son to be killed, his acts were by definition premeditated. He knew exactly what would happen, and he 'killed' (by definition) other human beings under this premeditation. This is murder, by definition.

If God's will were to exist absent of sin, he would not murder any human being. Unfortunately, he's killed millions under his direct order. A tough pill to swallow, but such is reality.

We have been given freewill so we may choose were we wish to spend eternity.

Hearsay. Show me actual proof or stop attempting to argue atheists.

Free will is the ability to sin.

That is a horribly depressing definition of free will. I love it when religious people call out atheists for being close-minded, bitter, and hopeless; yet a Christian will define free will as the ability to do wrong. I really do not like insulting other people, but your philosophy of humanity is utterly disgusting and deplorable. Shame on you for giving humanity such little credit, we'll see who you're begging for when you acquire cancer, the lovely random and pointless lethal disease God has bestowed us with.

Spare me the "death is a gift" response, and give me something with evidential substance. If you cannot, don't bother replying to anything I say.

Then the purpose of sin is to give an individual the choice on whether or not he wants to live with God(in Heaven) under His Expressed Will.

Nope, you're describing a "test" scenario. We are given a choice, and tested upon that choice. If we make the wrong choice, we are eternally damned. If we make the right choice, we are given eternal paradise.

I know you can't mentally do this, but at least try to imagine that you are God and that you have infinite power to create the universe, billions of galaxies with billions of stars, planets of all different types, and at least 1 planet that contains BILLIONS of forms of life/existence. Given the sheer science it takes to come to these factual conclusions, how can you eternally condemn trillions of species to either vanish from existence, or burn in Hellfire forever? You are the most powerful being that exists, and you know that. Why condemn anybody to Hell? Isn't it just messed up at that point? Even if "justified", an all-loving God would not create Hell for ANYBODY. That is pure logic and fact.

Because in the Garden the option of sin was apart of it's original design. Represented by the placement of the tree of knowledge in the center of the garden. Before Adam and eve were created.

Again with premeditation and testing. Why must God test us when he knows what the outcome will be? What is the point of a 'test' in that case?


Again because in the garden we were given the choice.

Garden of Eden = paradise. Heaven = paradise. In the Garden, we were given the choice between good and evil...in Heaven, we must also be given the choice between good and evil. That means we can commit an evil action in Heaven, since it is merely an expression of our free will. Heaven is no longer perfect, and neither is paradise.
 
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darknova

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First: how are you defining "evil?"

Anything which isn't moral or amoral. Anything immoral. Assuming God is real this would be based on what God considers wrong.

You've really answered your own question. Evil is associated with the material universe, not the spiritual universe. Evil was not born in the 3rd heaven, but in the 1st and 2nd. Eden too was part of the material universe. Even my dad wouldn't allow us kids's mess to leave our bedroom and come into the rest of the house, where he reigned supreme. (He was kinds like God that way. :))

Why was evil allowed in the physical world but not in heaven? What is acceptable about evil in the universe but not evil in heaven?

Also how does this relate to suffering caused by nature, not just humans?
 
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darknova

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By what objective and authoritative standard do you judge something to be "evil"?

I don't have to, but I don't know is my honest answer. Christians claim there is an objective moral law and therefore Christian theology must make sense within that assumption. I am trying to find out if Christian theology of the afterlife is consistent.

Evil is not of God - the devil is king of this world - the Bible tells us that the devil took Jesus up on the mountain and showed Him as far as He could see saying - I will give all of this to you if you will bow down and worship me - if he didn't own it, he could not give it away - we live in a fallen world. Heaven is our home and there is no evil there.

Before we get started just a quick review.
Sin is anything not in the Expressed Will of God.

Evil is a malicious intent to commit sin.

Not all sin is evil but all evil is sin.

Free will is the ability to choose a path outside of God's expressed will. In other words it is the ability to sin.

We have been given freewill so we may choose were we wish to spend eternity.

I can accept this. Wouldn't you say it is free will to be able to choose between two immoral options as well though?

Because those in Heaven have chosen to be with in the Expressed will of God.
So your point is that the physical world is where we make the choice about our eternal destiny and after that free will is taken away? So there is no free will in heaven? Why was free will given to people in the first place and why arn't Christians free from evil desires when they make the choice to follow God?

How do you explain suffering caused by nature too?
 
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Traveller and Wiley

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humblehumility said:
This is murder, by definition.

Who's definition? Biblically speaking, the definition of murder is man taking God's perogative to take innocent life upon himself.

How can God murder, when all life belongs to Him?

If God's will were to exist absent of sin, he would not murder any human being. Unfortunately, he's killed millions under his direct order.

He ordered Himself to kill people?


Hearsay. Show me actual proof or stop attempting to argue atheists.

I really do not like insulting other people...

And yet, you do it so often.

I know you can't mentally do this...

What was it you were saying about not liking to insult people?

but at least try to imagine that you are God and that you have infinite power to create the universe, billions of galaxies with billions of stars, planets of all different types, and at least 1 planet that contains BILLIONS of forms of life/existence. Given the sheer science it takes to come to these factual conclusions, how can you eternally condemn trillions of species to either vanish from existence, or burn in Hellfire forever?

What does one have to do with the other?

You are the most powerful being that exists, and you know that. Why condemn anybody to Hell?

Because God is Holy, Righteous, and Just.

Isn't it just messed up at that point? Even if "justified", an all-loving God would not create Hell for ANYBODY. That is pure logic and fact.

How is that logic? I would argue that it is illogical because it assumes that God is loving to the exclusion of all other qualities. If God is Holy, Righteous, and Just, then doesn't He have the responsibility to punish evildoers?

Heaven = paradise.

Again, do you mean Heaven or Paradise? Biblically speaking, they're two different places.

in Heaven, we must also be given the choice between good and evil.

Why must we?

That means we can commit an evil action in Heaven, since it is merely an expression of our free will. Heaven is no longer perfect, and neither is paradise.

Except that we no longer have a sin nature.
 
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Traveller and Wiley

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I don't have to

So then, you admit that you have no standard by which to declare it evil, but you declare it evil, anyway?

I am trying to find out if Christian theology of the afterlife is consistent.

How will you know if it's consistent if you don't have a standard by which to judge it?

So there is no free will in heaven?

We will have the free will in Heaven to do whatever is within our nature to do.
 
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Dark_Lite

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Anything which isn't moral or amoral. Anything immoral. Assuming God is real this would be based on what God considers wrong.

So it comes back to what the gods consider wrong (as an answer to that age-old question), rather than good and evil being independent of the creator(s). As to why "evil" is on earth but not in heaven, the answer lies in the perfection of the soul.
 
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bling

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Hi,

Many of the defences of God because of the problem of evil tend to say that evil is necessary or useful for some reason or another. If this is so, why is there no evil in heaven? Why was evil necessary in the universe but not in heaven for free will, personal growth, etc? Or for creationists; why is the possibility to sin necessary in eden, but not heaven? Or if it is possible in heaven, why does no one sin but they did in the perfect garden?

Edit: This is about human and natural evil and suffering.

Thanks
You are correct for the most part.

Sin (evil) has purpose here on earth that is not needed in heaven.

Humans have an earthly objective that cannot be fulfilled in heaven.

God is doing and allowing all He can to help willing humans fulfill their earthly objective. That “doing and allowing” includes: Christ going to the cross, satan roaming the earth, tragedies of all kind, death, hell, heaven, and sin.

Man still has free will (needed to Love like God Loves) in heaven, but since he has fulfilled his earthly objective he does not need to sin again and thus there are changes with the heavenly realm that allows former humans not to sin (remember sin has a purpose on earth).
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Anything which isn't moral or amoral. Anything immoral. Assuming God is real this would be based on what God considers wrong.



Why was evil allowed in the physical world but not in heaven? What is acceptable about evil in the universe but not evil in heaven?

Also how does this relate to suffering caused by nature, not just humans?

The question of evil is a bit complex. But the old 'Hanes' commercials give a humorous clue. 'It isn't 'Hane's' (sin) til I (God) say it's 'Hane's'. :) In other words God 'creates' 'sin' by arbitrarily 'imputing' 'wrongdoing' to certain acts. and attitudes. He then created a creature, man, that would suffer for committing these sins, or benefit by abstaining from them. All part of a greater purpose of course.
The garden of Eden was a type of the 'paradise lost' in the rebellion of Lucifer. The rebellion in the garden was a reinactment, by mortal man, of the original angelic rebellion, and had the same result: paradise was no longer available to them. God was showing mortal man what the angels had, and lost, the damage done, and the reason why. Lots more to it of course.
 
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humblehumility

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How can God murder, when all life belongs to Him?

Can a father not murder his child?


He ordered Himself to kill people?

He's killed millions himself (the flood), while also issuing out many direct orders to have people killed (most of the OT).


What was it you were saying about not liking to insult people?

That I don't like to, and I'll admit that my response last night could have worked just as fine without those words. I've argued with drich before and he believes that if God commanded Hitler to kill the Jews, it would be moral and there's nothing wrong with it. I can't respect somebody that believes this.

"I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.."

-Adolf Hitler


What does one have to do with the other?

Because given the grandeur of the universe (via science), it's morally sickening to think that nearly all of this beautiful creation is bound to suffer eternally. Only a select faction of humanity will make it to heaven and to the rest: off with their heads.


Because God is Holy, Righteous, and Just.

You haven't taken the viewpoint I suggested. Imagine that YOU are holy, righteous, and just. Imagine you created everything and created humans to be your children. Now you test your children by giving them 1 book, and also science (thousands of books, studies, evidential data). They both contradict, and they both have different explanations for the origins of existence. Some of your children want to be good people and live moral lives, but can't help taking the stance that science has so much more descriptively given us. You're going to let me burn in hell forever and be eternally separated from you? Is that an action a loving parent would take? Where is the forgiveness?


If God is Holy, Righteous, and Just, then doesn't He have the responsibility to punish evildoers?

Are Muslims that live moral lives and never hurt anybody evildoers? Are atheists who never make a peep about their beliefs and never hurt anybody evildoers? These people deserve eternal torment just because of what they think? There is no logic in this, unless God is ruthless and cruel.

Again, do you mean Heaven or Paradise? Biblically speaking, they're two different places.

Luke 23:43
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

He said this right before they were both going to die. So where are they going after they die?


Why must we?

Because then we have no free will.


Except that we no longer have a sin nature.

Neither did Adam and Eve when they were in the Garden. Look what happened to them.
 
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