Freewill and evil, can we have one without the other?

[A Devil's Advocate]

Freewill is the means through which we are capable of choosing a relationship with the father, or going at it independently of him. What is freewill? Freewill at it's very core is the permission given to us by God to say "No! I want nothing to do with you!" It's the "creations" freedom to deny its "creator." Where this gets complicated is in the acquiring of knowledge needed for man to make a wilful choice. He needs to have understanding or knowledge of both sides of the coin per say.
To choose to be in relationship with God or to be independent of God, man is going to need to know both the goodness of God and the evil of life without God. Enter the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Have you ever wondered why God put that tree in the garden to begin with? Having foreknowledge of what that was going to lead to, why even bother putting it there? He sure could've saved us a lot of trouble had he never even created that tree, right?. But, this is God were talking about and God does nothing without intent and purpose.

When the serpent engages with Eve, he points out something quite interesting. He tells Eve that if she eats from the tree, she will become like God knowing good and evil (Gen 3:5). If this is true, then we have to assume neither her or Adam had any knowledge of good and evil. We find out afterwards that this was true. Just before kicking both Adam and Eve out of the garden, God remarks that man has "now" become like one of us, knowing good and evil (Gen 3:23). And, it was in acquiring this knowledge that freewill first became a reality for man.
One can try and argue that Adam new good before the fall. He knew God, therefore he new good. However, it's not possible to know good without also knowing evil (hence why the tree is the knowledge of both good and evil, not just good). How can you distinguish what is good without something that is not good to compare it against? Yes, Adam knew God, but only to the extent that God could reveal himself. To know God is to know the goodness of God. Adam had no reference point from which to distinguish the goodness of God. God was simply God, neither good nor evil. Without first knowing God (such as the character of God), Adam would not choose a relationship with God of his own volition. We don't choose to be in a relationship with someone we don't know.

I would also like to point out that when God commanded Adam that he was free to eat of every tree of the garden, but the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he was not to eat from, that was the point where God created the "potential" for freewill. But, it wasn't until Adam acted on it that freewill become reality.

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Lets take it from the beginning. God creates man for the purpose of having a relationship with him. For his relationship with man to be in the truest sense of the word, man must be free to say yes or no. This will require then, that man has freewill. However, freewill means that man must have knowledge of good and evil. To acquire this knowledge, man must act independently of God by going against God's commandment. Does anyone see where this is headed?
The problem we run into is in the fact that God must punish evil, and the punishment for evil is death. So how does God allow man freewill, which will require allowing evil (by disobeying God), when the punishment for evil is death? A conundrum to be sure. The solution, you guessed it. Jesus!

Jesus will pay the penalty of death that God requires for the punishment of evil (sin). So that through him, we are able to have a relationship with God..... should we choose to.

 

[eleos1954]

Freewill is the means through which we are capable of choosing a relationship with the father, or going at it independently of him. What is freewill? Freewill at it's very core is the permission given to us by God to say "No! I want nothing to do with you!" It's the "creations" freedom to deny its "creator." Where this gets complicated is in the acquiring of knowledge needed for man to make a wilful choice. He needs to have understanding or knowledge of both sides of the coin per say.
To choose to be in relationship with God or to be independent of God, man is going to need to know both the goodness of God and the evil of life without God. Enter the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Have you ever wondered why God put that tree in the garden to begin with? Having foreknowledge of what that was going to lead to, why even bother putting it there? He sure could've saved us a lot of trouble had he never even created that tree, right?. But, this is God were talking about and God does nothing without intent and purpose.

When the serpent engages with Eve, he points out something quite interesting. He tells Eve that if she eats from the tree, she will become like God knowing good and evil (Gen 3:5). If this is true, then we have to assume neither her or Adam had any knowledge of good and evil. We find out afterwards that this was true. Just before kicking both Adam and Eve out of the garden, God remarks that man has "now" become like one of us, knowing good and evil (Gen 3:23). And, it was in acquiring this knowledge that freewill first became a reality for man.
One can try and argue that Adam new good before the fall. He knew God, therefore he new good. However, it's not possible to know good without also knowing evil (hence why the tree is the knowledge of both good and evil, not just good). How can you distinguish what is good without something that is not good to compare it against? Yes, Adam knew God, but only to the extent that God could reveal himself. To know God is to know the goodness of God. Adam had no reference point from which to distinguish the goodness of God. God was simply God, neither good nor evil. Without first knowing God (such as the character of God), Adam would not choose a relationship with God of his own volition. We don't choose to be in a relationship with someone we don't know.

I would also like to point out that when God commanded Adam that he was free to eat of every tree of the garden, but the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he was not to eat from, that was the point where God created the "potential" for freewill. But, it wasn't until Adam acted on it that freewill become reality.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lets take it from the beginning. God creates man for the purpose of having a relationship with him. For his relationship with man to be in the truest sense of the word, man must be free to say yes or no. This will require then, that man has freewill. However, freewill means that man must have knowledge of good and evil. To acquire this knowledge, man must act independently of God by going against God's commandment. Does anyone see where this is headed?
The problem we run into is in the fact that God must punish evil, and the punishment for evil is death. So how does God allow man freewill, which will require allowing evil (by disobeying God), when the punishment for evil is death? A conundrum to be sure. The solution, you guessed it. Jesus!

Jesus will pay the penalty of death that God requires for the punishment of evil (sin). So that through him, we are able to have a relationship with God..... should we choose to.

God creates all His intelligent beings with free will. The angels in heaven had choice. Sin started in heaven ... by choice.

It's about Love .... true love must be a choice ... true love can not be forced... it requires choice.

Sin is not loving God (God is Love) .... the punishment for sin is death because there needs to be an end to it (else it continues). The first death (is temporal) for those in Christ ... the 2nd death is for eternity .... ending sin for eternity.

God IS love. Not just something He does ... but what He is. God wants us to choose love over sin.

 

[A Devil's Advocate]

If I was married to a perfect woman , I would know good, without knowing evil.

Yes, today if you were married to a perfect woman you would know good without knowing evil. But, only in the sense that she does no evil. The only reason you even know she is perfect in the first place is because you know what isn't perfect. You already know what is evil.
Before the fall, you would not have known what evil was and therefore would not be able to recognize (understand, articulate) perfection (good). If you asked Adam, before the fall, to define "what is good?" What would Adam have to compare good against in order to define it. To show you, "This is good, this is not. See the difference?" Seeing a difference enables you to establish a reference point from which you can then define one or the other.

 

[A Devil's Advocate]

It's about Love .... true love must be a choice ... true love can not be forced... it requires choice.

Sin is not loving God (God is Love)

True love is not true love unless it is experienced through relationship. It's relationship that is the choice. God is love because God is revealed in three persons. Meaning God has need of only himself to experience true love, for love to be reality. This is only my opinion, but I believe God creating man for relationship was simply God being God.

I didn't say sin is loving God. Sin establishes a choice. The choice between good and evil. The choice then establishes freewill. Without choice, there is no freewill. You simply do what you are told to do.

 

[A Devil's Advocate]

Does God ever define love as being simply a feeling? Or, is love always defined as being seen through action?

-Love is patient. Patient of what? If there is no evil, what is love patient of? (there is no evil without existence. God is not evil therefore evil can only be seen in the created)

-Love is kind. Compared to what? What isn't kind if there is no evil?

-It does not boast. Boast of what?

-It is not proud. What does it have to be proud of?

-It does not dishonor others. Without evil, how would it be possible to dishonor?

-It is not self seeking. Only evil seeks self. Good will always seek God or the goodness in others. (that is to be selfless)

-It is not easily angered. Angered of what if there is no evil to be angry of?

-It keeps no record of wrongs. Pretty self explanatory at this point.

-Love does not delight in.... delight in what? "Evil!" But rejoices with truth.

-It always protects (from what?), always trusts (what has it not to trust?), always hopes (why would there even be a need for hope?), always perseveres (what is love persevering of?)

If God is love, but he is singular, tell me how then can he be love? Also,you tell me (Free will, unless defined in a carnal way,
is totally and entirely possible without evil.) Please explain to me then, what is freewill? And if this is not God's own definition of love in any language of love, then what is it?

 

[A Devil's Advocate]

Just because the bible doesn't mention something specifically, doesn't mean it isn't inferred. The trinity being a great example. However, I recognize we can often infer what actually isn't there. For example (I use this example knowing full well people are going to blow their lids), under the new covenant we don't read in scripture that we are to ask God to forgive us our sins in order to receive salvation. You have to infer that into scripture in order to see that.

 

[A Devil's Advocate]

Whether it has been debated endlessly or not, is not the issue. You have told me that my explanation of freewill requiring evil is incorrect by telling me that, unless it is defined in a carnal way, it's possible without evil, yet you choose not to back it up. Obviously you must know what freewill is if you're able to confidently tell me I'm incorrect.
I'm not meaning you any disrespect in the slightest. I'm here to learn as well as share. So, telling me I'm incorrect while not backing it up tells me nothing.
In your statement that freewill, unless defined in a carnal way, is possible without evil.... are you then saying that it cannot be defined in a carnal way without using evil? If so, why do you think that? Explain what you are meaning by something not being carnal?

 

[A Devil's Advocate]

Generically or generally speaking, (others might have more specific definitions),

all flesh is carnal, and as written, everything born of the flesh is flesh - and also as written, the flesh profits nothing.
Thus all mankind's efforts are futile and without hope or help or goodness in this world.

Importantly, for those receiving the resurrection life of Jesus, the only way to not be carnal is to be borne by God, and/or born again as is more commonly said, though not commonly a reality!


Whatever is(as a source, originating) from God daily, flowing, continuing , coming from God, is not carnal.
Whatever is(as to source) from the flesh, from man/men/mankind, is carnal.

The idea, definition, use of, clarity of, understanding of "free will" is simple when God Reveals this...
and is or gets at once corrupted when mankind/men/ the flesh seeks to do so apart from Jesus. Corruption is far more common than purity, btw.

Is it possible you may have little confidence in God's ability to guide his children, or more precisely, in his children's ability to be guided by him (such as me, for example)? Say God guides me, or whomever, in an understanding (freewill in this instance), but to you it's corrupted because you naturally assume it's from the flesh? No confidence at all in the possibility that maybe God has given clarity on something that maybe you have yet to receive?

In 1 Cor 2:12-16 we see that God's word is spiritually discerned. It is not discerned through worldly education, having a degree or doctorate. It is discerned through the spirit. The same spirit that flows through all believers, levelling the playing field when it comes to discerning God's word. The only advantage one believer may have over another believer is in their willingness and/or ability to hear the spirit (and possibly in spiritual gifts). I think most believers hear the spirit just fine. However, if what the spirit reveals to them doesn't line up with what they have been continually taught, they just simply brush it off as not coming from the spirit. When what they should be doing is testing it by God's word.
It's easy to sit there and say "You're wrong, for I know better!" Then it is to say, "I'm not sure I agree with you? How about we pray about it and see what God reveals?"

 

[eleos1954]

True love is not true love unless it is experienced through relationship. It's relationship that is the choice. God is love because God is revealed in three persons. Meaning God has need of only himself to experience true love, for love to be reality. This is only my opinion, but I believe God creating man for relationship was simply God being God.

I didn't say sin is loving God. Sin establishes a choice. The choice between good and evil. The choice then establishes freewill. Without choice, there is no freewill. You simply do what you are told to do.

k, my opinion is as follows ...

God IS love .. it's not that He has need of a relationship .... there were the 3 from the beginning (trinity of Love) ... they have always been. Their very existence defines what love is. Neither has need of the other. God is a creative being ... He enjoys creating. God didn't create sin ... but He did know that man would sin.

We were created in His image ... that image is love ... our original true created nature is love (created in love to love) .... we go against love and that is sin. The 3 represents family (the family of Love) .... God created an extension of that family. Not out of need but the for the sharing of His nature of Love .... an abundance of love through everything He created.

Before Adam & Eve sinned .... sin was not yet in the world (evil did not exist in the world). Yet they had choice. They could have chosen differently. So, the driving factor is love. They had freewill before sin existed. The temptation was there ... but temptation is not a sin. That temptation was not from God but from satan.

James 1:13​

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.

God can not sin because He IS love. It's not a choice between the 3. Indeed it is a relationship but the relationship is not dependent on the other .... the relationship establishes what love is. God knows the difference between good and evil .... because He is the very definition of love. We know good from evil .... because of that love.

Satan started this mess .... he chose his own selfish desires ... he and the fallen angels had choice .... sin was not in heaven until they made that choice .... all they knew was good .... evil did not exist ... yet they had freewill.

It's about Gods law .... they are laws that when kept perfectly produce love (only Christ did). That is why it is said ....

Galatians 5:22-24 King James Version (KJV)

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Satan is the enemy of love ... he chose not to love (freewill), and tempts all others to do same. Many of the angels chose to remain in love they did not know what sin was . This is why angels like to look into what is going on ... on planet earth. To understand the Love of God for his creations, including themselves.

What things do angels desire to look into?

The angels desire to look into the grace, the salvation, the power and wisdom of God. Because I can try and convince you of God in my own wisdom and intellect and get nowhere. This whole life right now comes down to the gospel of Jesus Christ who is God and God is love.

It's all about love ... and love is a choice (love can not be forced) .... always has been this way.

What is love? Putting others before self (as seen in the trinity- the relationship of love). Jesus laying His life down for all of humanity on the cross was the stark reality to all of creation of what love is (God is love). He put the entirety of mankind before Himself .... and that is love.

Sin does not gives us choice between good and evil (freewill) ... Love does. Not to love (putting others before self) produces sin and is at enmity with God because God IS love and is unchanging.

My main point .... no sin (evil) does not need to exist to know what love is ... but love must exist ... and love is what gives us the freedom to choose. Love can and does exist without evil (in heaven) .... the unfallen angels in heaven proves this. They had no experiential knowledge of sin ... yet made choices. Those choices were based on faith. Faith in the love of God.