Do I have to be totally free of sin to retain my salvation?

[sdowney717]

I've got another question. I'm seeing a lot of verses that show who gets saved was chosen before the world began (Ephesians 1:4, Revelation 17:8, Romans 9:11). Is the proper response to this fact to fear that I might be believing in vain as a non-elect? After all, many believers will be told "I never knew you" as per Matthew 21-23.

This is the idea of continuing in the faith, note v23

Colossians 1
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

2 Timothy 2:12New King James Version (NKJV)
12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.

Clearly those who depart the faith are unsaved antichrists, as l John 2 teaches.
Those who do not deny Christ but endure to the end, Christ says will be saved.

Matthew 24:13
But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
1 John 2
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that theAntichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; butthey went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

Endure without denying Christ. Peter did deny Christ 3 times, yet since Peter was elect, Christ told Peter HE had interceded, prayed to God for Peter and that Peter would be turned back.
God is the one who grants repentance.
Christ is the one whoever lives to make intercession for His people.
If you remain steadfast in faith, with Christ interceding for you, then in heaven is your eternal reward and that is your destiny.

 

[Salem]

Clearly those who depart the faith are unsaved antichrists, as l John 2 teaches.
Those who do not deny Christ but endure to the end, Christ says will be saved.

Matthew 24:13
But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
1 John 2
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that theAntichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; butthey went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Congregations are a mixed body of true and false believers, even tares, but made up of the born again and the merely churched, the latter who never repented. These warnings in scripture teachings are mistaken for threats against born again believers by some who don't understand the entirety of scripture context, even reject the Lord's firm promises, or just some admonition to be righteous interpreted to include some "or else." The warnings are repeated, fair warnings to the believer the likes of a Laodicean, who dwell in all congregations. This is not to say there's not an "or else," which is the rod of God, being taken to the woodshed in this life over sin, but this is not salvation loss. It's a huge contradiction God would discipline true believers over sin, were loss of salvation an issue. The Lord doesn't waste effort on disciplining the damned, chastens sons, not bastards, and a born again child, like the prodigal son, is still a son, not a bastard: God disciplines, does not disown. There is no such thing as being unborn again, or scripture would clearly teach this.

Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

As to Matthew 24, it is very focused scripture, teaching on the end times, the time of Jacob's trouble. Enduring in this period the Lord is directly addressing should not be construed as a universal statement of man having to add to grace, that anybody is maybe saved, if they endure. This would be in horrible contradiction of the gospel, and is to fail to understand Matthew 24 in its context of the time of Jacob's trouble.

Where there's error, it seems most always involving lifting scripture out of context that does not simply stand alone, men taking a verse or verses, lifting them out of context, then adding their own commentary to explode the error. You'll see this pattern, always, in deceptive scripture interpretation, a little Bible, a lot of man's blabbering about it. Instead of some people claiming scripture contradicts itself, they would better spend their time finding a true understanding of scripture, which is of complete harmony, when you understand the Bible in some relative entirety of context, which few people seem to, at least on the web.

 

[shakewell]

I've got another question. I'm seeing a lot of verses that show who gets saved was chosen before the world began (Ephesians 1:4, Revelation 17:8, Romans 9:11). Is the proper response to this fact to fear that I might be believing in vain as a non-elect? After all, many believers will be told "I never knew you" as per Matthew 21-23.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
It doesn't say He chose us "to be" in Him. The "saints" and "faithful" (verse 1) are already in Him. He chose already-saved-people to be holy and without blame. He made this choice before the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
This can be interpreted in various ways: the book itself was established before the foundation; or the names were written in it before the foundation via simple foresight/foreknowledge of who the faithful are, etc.

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
God chose Jacob for a specific earthly role in redemption history. It doesn't say that He "unconditionally" choose him for personal eternal salvation.

Regarding Matthew 7:21-23: They're not identified as "believers" in the passage.

 

[sdowney717]

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
It doesn't say He chose us "to be" in Him. The "saints" and "faithful" (verse 1) are already in Him. He chose already-saved-people to be holy and without blame. He made this choice before the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
This can be interpreted in various ways: the book itself was established before the foundation; or the names were written in it before the foundation via simple foresight/foreknowledge of who the faithful are, etc.

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
God chose Jacob for a specific earthly role in redemption history. It doesn't say that He "unconditionally" choose him for personal eternal salvation.

Regarding Matthew 7:21-23: They're not identified as "believers" in the passage.

Jesus does chose and know whom He has chosen.
He knows them and they also know Him. John 10.
Jesus specifically tells us they didn't chose Him, He chose them.

John 13:18
[ Jesus Identifies His Betrayer ] “I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’

John 15:16
You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

John 15:19
If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

 

[sdowney717]

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

Not all are Christ's sheep. Chris tells us plainly, He lays down His life for the sheep.

The Shepherd Knows His Sheep
22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch.24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

 

[shakewell]

Is the proper response to this fact to fear that I might be believing in vain as a non-elect?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned ...

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life ...

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 6:40 ... every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die ...

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God ...

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life ...

These are promises straight from God that you have every right to claim for yourself if you simply believe in Christ. That is any person's assurance of salvation; God's promises.

 

[sdowney717]

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned ...

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life ...

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 6:40 ... every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die ...

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God ...

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life ...

These are promises straight from God that you have every right to claim for yourself if you simply believe in Christ. That is any person's assurance of salvation; God's promises.

Jesus also says this too.
26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

Only the sheep of Christ will believe in Christ.

This is reinforced by Jesus telling us of these other sheep HE has.
These other sheep have not yet heard of Christ, but when He calls them by name since He has foreknown them as His own elect, they will hear His voice and they will all follow Him as one flock with One shepherd.

This is actually a very comforting and consoling place to exist as one of Christ's sheep since He gives eternal consolations and eternal life to the sheep of the sheep fold and they will never perish.

16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

Christ here identifies as His own these other sheep He has who have not yet heard the gospel.
They will believe since they also belong to Him even though never yet having heard of Christ as God has given them to Christ as believers having foreknown them in love.

Note v2. Jesus acknowledges the Father's choice in whom He has been given His believers. The as many as God has Given to the Son. This is God foreknowing us whom He then predestined to be the called of Romans 8:30

John 17New King James Version (NKJV)
Jesus Prays for Himself
17 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said:“Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

 

[StanJ]

Clearly those who depart the faith are unsaved antichrists, as l John 2 teaches.

Clearly you have not properly read 1 John 2. You're combining two different issues here. Those who depart from the true Faith are considered apostate not antichrists. John said that those antichrists that left them were never of them so they couldn't have been saved.
Apostasism is not the same as false teachers or antichrists.

 

[sdowney717]

Clearly you have not properly read 1 John 2. You're combining two different issues here. Those who depart from the true Faith are considered apostate not antichrists. John said that those antichrists that left them were never of them so they couldn't have been saved.
Apostasism is not the same as false teachers or antichrists.

I take it you believe a saved person can become unsaved, where as I believe salvation is eternal once a person is saved.

Apostates were never saved persons, they apostasize, depart from the faith giving heed to demonic spirits and doctrines, since they are of the devil.
If someone was of God they would not depart from God but endure in trials remaining in the faith. Apostates faith is only skin deep, never been made into new creatures in Christ. The parable of the sower sowing the seed shows that. And that parable is compressing an entire lifetime of each one of those described in the parable, not only a momentary snippet of a life. It can take years to bear good fruit many fold.

 

[brinny]

Do I have to be totally free of sin to retain my salvation?

Romans 8:1 says there's no condemnation to those who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit. Romans 8:6 says to be carnally minded is death and Romans 8:7 says that is is enmity against God. Romans 8:13 says if you live after the flesh you will die. Galatians 6:8 says whoever sows to the flesh reaps destruction and only those who sow to the Spirit reap everlasting life. Now since everyone dies, do these refer to spiritual death, as in loss of salvation?

Now I've made some progress in removing the sin from my life. I gave up playing video games, all secular movies/TV/music, my addiction to caffeine from sodas, masturbating, and so on. But I just can't seem to be free of sin even one day. Idle words, foolish thoughts, having the opportunity to do good and not doing it, these things just seem impossible to manage. Should I just give up and live however I want since I'm heading to Hell anyway?

EXCELLENT study. It is only recently that i began meditating and studying on this very thing. My ponderings and studying of it actually began with my studies in the book of Job.

Interestingly enough, a key word stood out for me.

The word is "blameless".

My question to you would be:

Is there a difference between "blameless" and "sinless"?

If so, what is the difference?

Are they the same?

Thank you kindly.

 

[sdowney717]

The Parable of the Sower Explained
18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower:

These first 3 types are not God's good ground, these are all lost and remain lost.

19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.
20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

The good ground is a Godly prepared regenerated heart.
The reason they understand the word of Christ, is they have been chosen to know the truth, this has been revealed to them.

23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

That God has done this, Jesus rejoices in that God has hidden spiritual truth from the wise of this world, they remain blinded in their minds by the god of this world, Satan.

So that none will know God and Christ except those for whom Christ and the Father have chosen to reveal themselves, according to THEIR WILL.

Luke 10
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from thewise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

 

[StanJ]

I take it you believe a saved person can become unsaved, where as I believe salvation is eternal once a person is saved.

Apostates were never saved persons, they apostasize, depart from the faith giving heed to demonic spirits and doctrines, since they are of the devil.
If someone was of God they would not depart from God but endure in trials remaining in the faith. Apostates faith is only skin deep, never been made into new creatures in Christ. The parable of the sower sowing the seed shows that. And that parable is compressing an entire lifetime of each one of those described in the parable, not only a momentary snippet of a life. It can take years to bear good fruit many fold.

Yes I do because that's what the Bible teaches. Hebrews 6:4-6 is a good example, but there are many others.
Of course apostates were saved you can't fall away from nothing if you were saved to become apostate you fell away from salvation. Apparently don't really understand what the meaning of the word apostate is?
Charles Templeton became an apostate. Do you know who Charles Templeton is?

 

[StanJ]

The Parable of the Sower Explained
18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower:
These first 3 types are not God's good ground, these are all lost and remain lost.

Seems you don't really understand the parable even though Jesus explained it?
Those in v12 never confess Jesus as their savior, hence unsaved.
Those in v13 are saved but become apostate.
Those in v14 are saved but never mature.
Those in v15 are saved and mature, thus endure.

 

[sdowney717]

Seems you don't really understand the parable even though Jesus explained it?
Those in v12 never confess Jesus as their savior, hence unsaved.
Those in v13 are saved but become apostate.
Those in v14 are saved but never mature.
Those in v15 are saved and mature, thus endure.

No, what your saying about v14 being saved is impossible.

They do not bear any good fruit.
What does scripture say about this?
Matthew 3:10New King James Version (NKJV)
10 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

 

[sdowney717]

The parable of the sower ONLY has one fruitful type of person, the one sown on the good ground.
" Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. "

Unfruitful means no good fruit to God, means destiny hell fire, so not a saved person.

 

[sdowney717]

Now John spoke those words about being thrown in to hell fire, all those who are not bearing good fruit.
Lest you think Jesus was of a different opinion, Jesus also teaches the same thing.

You Will Know Them by Their Fruits
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

That there are only good trees, and bad trees, means there are only saved born of God people and people who are not saved.
All the saved people MUST bear good fruit or they would not be the good trees planted by the Lord.

Either make the tree good and it's fruit will be good, or make the tree bad, and it's fruit will be bad.
God makes the tree, either good or bad by it's nature, the tree bears fruit after it's own kind.

A Tree Known by Its Fruit
33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. 34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. 36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

A good man brings forth good treasure out of His heart since he has been BORN of GOD. While the evil tree brings forth evil things never having been born of the Spirit, they remain true to their own evil nature with evil hearts.

 

[sdowney717]

Jesus says
17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

Jesus says it is impossible for a good tree to bear bad fruit.
Jesus says it is impossible for a bad tree to bear good fruit.
Who will you believe? Jesus ?
Each one reproduces fruit after it's own kind.

God defines what is bad fruit and what is good fruit, and sometimes it so obvious.
Look at all the various religious dogma and traditions out there. What you may consider bad fruit, God may be declaring as good fruit and then in reality your considering yourself of the good fruit variety may be really rotten bad fruit! Why do you judge others when your own eyes are corrupted?

Consider the parable of the wheat and the weeds.
Jesus says let them both grow together, and at the harvest the angels will separate the good from the bad, the wicked from the justified. Some are planted by the Lord as sons of the kingdom in the field of the Lord, and some are planted by the Satan as sons of the evil one. ALL are planted, there is nothing that is not wheat or weed. Never do the sons of the kingdom become the sons of Satan, nor sons of Satan become sons of the kingdom, each one is reproducing from the seed of their father, in the one case, God is their Father, and the other, Satan.

Wheat and weed look very similar when young, but at maturity in the harvest each can be clearly distinguished. And of course the angels knew immediately when they looked after being sown, who was the wheat, and who the weed! This is because God has put His mark, His seal of the Holy Spirit on all His wheat plants, all saved persons are sealed in the Holy Spirit unto the Day of redemption.

Ephesians 4:30New King James Version (NKJV)
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

 

[StanJ]

No, what your saying about v14 being saved is impossible.
They do not bear any good fruit.
What does scripture say about this?

Sadly you presume way too much on the text. V14 shows they received Jesus but just didn't mature. It says nothing about them not producing any fruit. Immature trees still produce fruit.

 

[sdowney717]

Sadly you presume way too much on the text. V14 shows they received Jesus but just didn't mature. It says nothing about them not producing any fruit. Immature trees still produce fruit.

Why so contrary you are?
Define what it means to be 'unfruitful'
This means not bearing fruit, in this case not bearing good fruit to God.
All those who do not bear good fruit will be cut down, and thrown into the fire.
This same verse in Luke 8 about that parable says it this way.
He did not bring forth fruit to maturity, meaning the fruit died, the fruit rotted, the fruit was inedible. None of that pleases God, they are in effect unfruitful to God.

Luke 8:14
Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity.

" Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. "

BUT for the people of God, Jesus declares they will bear fruit and it will remain on their account to be rewarded at the judgment.
John 15
16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. 17 These things I command you, that you love one another.

And about fruit, those who abide in Christ have an abundance of good fruit.
They do not have itty bitty immature fruits as you teach.

John 15New King James Version (NKJV)
The True Vine
15 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

Fruitless branches are thrown into the fire. Christ is our creator who made all things, all people. If your not found abiding in Christ, you will be cut down and thrown into the fire as a withered branch.

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

Persons who do not abide in Christ, have no part, right or claim to the TREE of LIFE, Christ, and will be cast off from God and burned in the fires of Hell.

 

[StanJ]

The parable of the sower ONLY has one fruitful type of person, the one sown on the good ground.
" Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. "
Unfruitful means no good fruit to God, means destiny hell fire, so not a saved person.

It's all the same seed.... it's the word of God. You are going way too far in your eisegesis of Scripture.