Do I have to be totally free of sin to retain my salvation?

StanJ

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Why so contrary you are?
Define what it means to be 'unfruitful'
This means not bearing fruit, in this case not bearing good fruit to God.
All those who do not bear good fruit will be cut down, and thrown into the fire.
This same verse in Luke 8 about that parable says it this way.
He did not bring forth fruit to maturity, meaning the fruit died, the fruit rotted, the fruit was inedible. None of that pleases God, they are in effect unfruitful to God.

Luke 8:14
Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity.

" Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. "

BUT for the people of God, Jesus declares they will bear fruit and it will remain on their account to be rewarded at the judgment.
John 15
16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. 17 These things I command you, that you love one another.


And about fruit, those who abide in Christ have an abundance of good fruit.
They do not have itty bitty immature fruits as you teach. Oso really
The True Vine
15 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you
are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

Fruitless branches are thrown into the fire. Christ is our creator who made all things, all people. If your not found abiding in Christ, you will be cut down and thrown into the fire as a withered branch.

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

Persons who do not abide in Christ, have no part, right or claim to the TREE of LIFE, Christ, and will be cast off from God and burned in the fires of Hell.

The Bible is not based on your vernacular or your words, it has its own vernacular and its own words. As you continually use your own words and insert them into the Bible I will continue to disagree with you and show how you were wrong by what the Bible says. Now you're going off to a relevant scriptures that have nothing to do with the parable. Yes the Bible does interpret itself but on a particular subject with in context. You can't just plug verses and words out of context and use them to justify your own dogmatic point of view.
If you're not sure what the nkjv says then maybe you should use a modern functionally equivalent translation?
 
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sdowney717

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The Bible is not based on your vernacular or your words, it has its own vernacular and its own words. As you continually use your own words and insert them into the Bible I will continue to disagree with you and show how you were wrong by what the Bible says. Now you're going off to a relevant scriptures that have nothing to do with the parable. Yes the Bible does interpret itself but on a particular subject with in context. You can't just plug verses and words out of context and use them to justify your own dogmatic point of view.
If you're not sure what the nkjv says then maybe you should use a modern functionally equivalent translation?

You're really stuck in your doctrine, you accuse me of impure doctrine, but your own words reflect your own ignorances.
When shown that these people are not bearing fruit, you continue to insist they are bearing fruit and also saved, very contrary you are to the scriptures, that is very clear.
 
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StanJ

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You're really stuck in your doctrine, you accuse me of impure doctrine, but your own words reflect your own ignorances.
When shown that these people are not bearing fruit, you continue to insist they are bearing fruit and also saved, very contrary you are to the scriptures, that is very clear.

The point is you are not showing, you are assuming that they don't bear fruit. And in order to support your misinformed point of view you search out other scriptures that are irrelevant to this issue and use them to support bearing fruit. In other words you deflect from the real issue. I'm not stuck on my doctor and I'm stuck on what the Bible teaches. I show, based on what the word does say, that your assumptions are wrong, so if you would stop making assumptions and stop practicing exegesis when presenting them, then there wouldn't be a problem.
Is English your primary language? Because from what I see just here, it doesn't appear to be, and that might explain why you don't understand certain things.
 
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sdowney717

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The point is you are not showing, you are assuming that they don't bear fruit. And in order to support your misinformed point of view you search out other scriptures that are irrelevant to this issue and use them to support bearing fruit. In other words you deflect from the real issue. I'm not stuck on my doctor and I'm stuck on what the Bible teaches. I show, based on what the word does say, that your assumptions are wrong, so if you would stop making assumptions and stop practicing exegesis when presenting them, then there wouldn't be a problem.
Is English your primary language? Because from what I see just here, it doesn't appear to be, and that might explain why you don't understand certain things.

It specifically says they are unfruitful.
It specifically says, they bring no fruit to maturity.
It specifically says that those who abide in Christ BEAR MUCH FRUIT.
You're having troubles with this since your contrary to what the scriptures say, but it is not me that your being contrary with that makes any difference, but only Christ.
 
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Mediaeval

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I've got another question. I'm seeing a lot of verses that show who gets saved was chosen before the world began (Ephesians 1:4, Revelation 17:8, Romans 9:11). Is the proper response to this fact to fear that I might be believing in vain as a non-elect? After all, many believers will be told "I never knew you" as per Matthew 21-23.

Always fearing that you are non-elect because of the imperfection of your faith (and, like our works, our faith is always imperfect), is just the kind of thing that would prevent a person from rejoicing in the Lord always. In the Bible, the nation of Israel’s unique calling among the nations was election writ large. But notice that this was an election whose blessings did not exclude the non-elect nations, the Gentiles. The Church today finds herself in an analogous situation with regard to the world. Christians are a “kind of first fruits" (James 1:18) of redeemed humanity.
 
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sdowney717

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Have confidence in your salvation that you were chosen of God for salvation and that from the beginning, you who believe in Christ.
2 thessalonians 2

Stand Fast

13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.


Paul here contrasts those God has chosen to save, versus in the immediate chapter prior, those who follow after Satan and the Beast being deceived because they refuse to love the truth and be saved.
Therefore God sends a powerful delusion upon them to believe in the LIE, that they will all be thoroughly and most certainly condemned.

2 Thessalonians 2
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
 
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StanJ

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It specifically says they are unfruitful.
It specifically says, they bring no fruit to maturity.
It specifically says that those who abide in Christ BEAR MUCH FRUIT.
You're having troubles with this since your contrary to what the scriptures say, but it is not me that your being contrary with that makes any difference, but only Christ.
Now you're equivocating by not identifying what you're talking about. The Bible does teach these things but not the way you constructed it.
Yes John 15:5 does say that those who abide in Christ will bear much fruit but it doesn't say that those who don't abide in him won't be saved. It simply says they can do nothing it doesn't say they no longer are saved. This is what I mean by you asserting thoughts into scripture.
You either believe all the Bible is true or you don't believe any of it is true. You can't pick and choose what you're going to accept and ignore the rest. This is exactly what you're doing by refusing to address the scriptures I post and posting others that you think are contrary. There are no contrary scriptures in the Bible. The Bible interprets itself and it all agrees. The only thing that I'm having trouble with is understanding how somebody who says they know the Bible so well can handle it so badly. The onus is on each of us to 'rightly divide the word of Truth.'
 
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sdowney717

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Now you're equivocating by not identifying what you're talking about. The Bible does teach these things but not the way you constructed it.
Yes John 15:5 does say that those who abide in Christ will bear much fruit but it doesn't say that those who don't abide in him won't be saved. It simply says they can do nothing it doesn't say they no longer are saved. This is what I mean by you asserting thoughts into scripture.
You either believe all the Bible is true or you don't believe any of it is true. You can't pick and choose what you're going to accept and ignore the rest. This is exactly what you're doing by refusing to address the scriptures I post and posting others that you think are contrary. There are no contrary scriptures in the Bible. The Bible interprets itself and it all agrees. The only thing that I'm having trouble with is understanding how somebody who says they know the Bible so well can handle it so badly. The onus is on each of us to 'rightly divide the word of Truth.'

You have already forgotten that you claimed the third type in the parable was bearing fruit and saved?
When I showed they were unfruitful and only the fourth type was bearing good fruit manyfold.
You still persisting in this?

Ok, now on this other thought you have your saying those who don't abide in Christ are not no longer saved, when in actuality it does say those who do not abide in HIM will be cast out from Him and thrown into the fire. The fire is HELL.
"cast out, cut off", would imply separation from God and Christ which is then a destiny of hell. There is no other place to go, destiny is always either heaven or hell. To be cast out into outer darkness is also HELL.

You say "Yes John 15:5 does say that those who abide in Christ will bear much fruit

'but it doesn't say that those who don't abide in him won't be saved. '

It simply says they can do nothing it doesn't say they no longer are saved. This is what I mean by you asserting thoughts into scripture."


Christ specifically says those who do not abide in Christ are cast out as a withered branch and thrown into the fire. That means they are not saved, they burn in Hell. This is not about them losing their salvation. This is about them not abiding in Christ at all, ever. Those who abide in Christ are saved, since to abide in Christ also implies Christ is within you too.

The verse
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Your saying I am adding in the concept that this is hell fire, which your saying it is not hell fire, is that correct?
If not hell, then what do you say this fire is about?

From a study bible
15:6If anyone does not abide in me. Those that do not remain show that they never had a saving relationship with Christ. Their destiny is described with the language of damnation (cf. Matt. 3:12; 25:41; Jude 7; Rev. 20:14).
 
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StanJ

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I'm curious. Are you meaning that there are other people, other than just Christians, who are redeemed?
All of mankind has been redeemed, and those that confess Jesus Christ as their savior and accept that Redemption are saved.
 
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StanJ

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You have already forgotten that you claimed the third type in the parable was bearing fruit and saved?
When I showed they were unfruitful and only the fourth type was bearing good fruit manyfold.
You still persisting in this?

Ok, now on this other thought you have your saying those who don't abide in Christ are not no longer saved, when in actuality it does say those who do not abide in HIM will be cast out from Him and thrown into the fire. The fire is HELL.
"cast out, cut off", would imply separation from God and Christ which is then a destiny of hell. There is no other place to go, destiny is always either heaven or hell. To be cast out into outer darkness is also HELL.

You say "Yes John 15:5 does say that those who abide in Christ will bear much fruit

'but it doesn't say that those who don't abide in him won't be saved. '

It simply says they can do nothing it doesn't say they no longer are saved. This is what I mean by you asserting thoughts into scripture."


Christ specifically says those who do not abide in Christ are cast out as a withered branch and thrown into the fire. That means they are not saved, they burn in Hell. This is not about them losing their salvation. This is about them not abiding in Christ at all, ever. Those who abide in Christ are saved, since to abide in Christ also implies Christ is within you too.

The verse
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Your saying I am adding in the concept that this is hell fire, which your saying it is not hell fire, is that correct?
If not hell, then what do you say this fire is about?

From a study bible
15:6If anyone does not abide in me. Those that do not remain show that they never had a saving relationship with Christ. Their destiny is described with the language of damnation (cf. Matt. 3:12; 25:41; Jude 7; Rev. 20:14).

I have already addressed these issues so please read my past posts. I really don't want to start going in circles on this issue.
 
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sdowney717

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Good fruit and Good works are not the same thing.
Good fruit is what we speak, the fruit of our lips and our spiritual characteristics, the fruits of the Holy Spirit in our life, the love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control

The third type person never bore any good fruit, being unfruitful. No fruits of the Spirit, means no salvation.
A good tree Jesus says, can not bear ANY bad fruit. Which makes a whole lot of sense, if fruits are separate from works.
The good fruit is what is spoken as it comes out from the heart and demonstrated in our lives as fruits of the Holy Spirit. In the case of one born of God, a regenerated good heart bears the good fruits.

In Galatians 5, Paul specifically states, those who have the works of the fruits of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God, as they do not bear good fruit, so they are of course then tossed into the fire of hell.

Those who bear good fruits of the Holy Spirit, against them is no law, no judgement, no hell, only a destiny of heaven.
Because they bear good fruit and so then their fruit abides as they also abide in Christ. they do inherit the kingdom of God.
They are not condemned by Christ and God since by their words they are justified, they spoke rightly according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh. they from the heart brought forth good things. While the others bearing no good fruit, brought forth evil things.

Matthew 12

A Tree Known by Its Fruit
33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. 34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. 36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

So then Good fruit is here the good words, the right words anointed by the Holy Spirit and also the fruits of the Spirit which are not works.

The good works we may do is how we build on the foundation of our salvation in Christ. Those good works are also ordained and predetermined by God for us to walk in beforehand, which really speaks of how obedient we are to the Holy Spirit in our walk. Since He is our creator, He is our workmanship, we are designed to do good works which God prepared for us to do BEFOREHAND, meaning before our salvation God determined for us to do certain good works. Just as it says in Eph 2.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Galatians 5, the flesh and the Spirit lust one against the other.

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

 
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I'm curious. Are you meaning that there are other people, other than just Christians, who are redeemed?

Yes. I would say Christ is the Redeemer of all, even of those who do not yet enjoy the benefits of redemption.
 
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ac28

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1 Corinthians 15:1-4, *Paul's gospel, which contains everything you need to know to become saved.
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


Ephesians 1:13-14, *When you believe Paul's gospel above, you are SEALED with the Holy Spirit.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


Paul, the *only Apostle to the Gentiles, says:
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


You are not saved by works. You are saved to do good works.

*There are other apostles for the Gentiles mentioned in the Bible. I think Barnabas was one, but he and the 2 or 3 others mentioned didn't write any books. In any case, we know the the ministry of the 12 was solely to the circumcision, Israel - Matthew 10:5, Galatians 2:7-9. The only Gentile that any of the 12 were sent to was Cornelius and Peter surely didn't want to do it - Acts 10. Christ's earthly ministry was also to Israel - Romans 15:8. Matthew 15:24, John 1:31, although Paul's ministry both during both Acts and after Acts was surely under the power and control of Christ Jesus, through the many special revelations, over the years, that Christ gave Paul. Every doctrine that Paul wrote came directly from Christ. The 12 received none of these revelations.

The moral of this story is, if you want to know about salvation today, in this present age of grace, Paul's books are the only source available.
 
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I've got another question. I'm seeing a lot of verses that show who gets saved was chosen before the world began (Ephesians 1:4, Revelation 17:8, Romans 9:11). Is the proper response to this fact to fear that I might be believing in vain as a non-elect? After all, many believers will be told "I never knew you" as per Matthew 21-23.
Travis 93- Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour saved each and every person that has ever been born! There are many verses of scripture that confirm this, a few are as follows: 1 Timothy 2:3-6 states " For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our(yours, mine and everyone's) Saviour; who will have all(each and every one) men to be saved, and come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all(everyone), to be testified in due time". Titus 2:11 " For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men". 2 Thessalonians 2:13 " But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification(being made Holy) of the Spirit and belief of the truth". Romans 1:6 " Among whom are ye(you) also called of Jesus Christ". 1 Corinthians 7:17 " But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord the Lord hath(has) called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches". Fear: Luke 1:74-75 "That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear. In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life". Have a blessed day knowing that he is the living God who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe(not just those that believe-but then you come to the conclusion that every one believes-just keep studying to show thyself approved) 1 Timothy 4:10.
 
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sdowney717

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Travis 93- Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour saved each and every person that has ever been born! There are many verses of scripture that confirm this, a few are as follows: 1 Timothy 2:3-6 states " For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our(yours, mine and everyone's) Saviour; who will have all(each and every one) men to be saved, and come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all(everyone), to be testified in due time". Titus 2:11 " For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men". 2 Thessalonians 2:13 " But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification(being made Holy) of the Spirit and belief of the truth". Romans 1:6 " Among whom are ye(you) also called of Jesus Christ". 1 Corinthians 7:17 " But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord the Lord hath(has) called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches". Fear: Luke 1:74-75 "That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear. In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life". Have a blessed day knowing that he is the living God who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe(not just those that believe-but then you come to the conclusion that every one believes-just keep studying to show thyself approved) 1 Timothy 4:10.

Your quoting verses which are only for the church, not the people of the world.
What then about the people Jesus kills when He returns?
Luke 17
28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

Destruction is death, you must not believe in hell?

Luke 19, the parable of the Minas, tells us what happen when Christ returns.

24 “And he said to those who stood by, ‘Take the mina from him, and give it to him who has ten minas.’ 25 (But they said to him, ‘Master, he has ten minas.’) 26 ‘For I say to you, that to everyone who has will be given; and from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 27 But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.’”
 
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"Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself."

All sin is all sin including the future.

Verses that talk about how Jesus paid for all of mankind's sin so that He could give them the free gift of eternal life. Nowhere does Scripture teach Universalism or teach that future sin is forgiven the believer. If that was the case, then Jesus would have been lying in many verses such as Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, John 5:14, etc.

StanJ said:
"But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself."

You really need to read the verses I provided rather than deflect to the surrounding verses. Once for all is once for all.

Verses in Scripture do not undo or deflect other verses in Scripture. All of Scripture breathes in harmony with one another. The context of Hebrews 10:26 is talking about how there remains no more sacrifice for sin for your life personally if you willfully sin. Meaning, if a Pastor went out and started to shoot people with a sub machine gun, and he refused to repent of such a sin, Christ's sacrifice would not then be applied to his life then.

Here is the context of Hebrews 10:26,

28 "He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

Verse 29 is talking about the New Covenant because it is comparing the trodding under foot the Son of God with the Law of Moses. It talks about how there is punishment still under this Covenant. It does not suggest that there is less punishment but actually more.

This truth is confirmed in Romans 11:22 that says,

"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

Romans 11:21 says,

"For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee."


...
 
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Travis 93- Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour saved each and every person that has ever been born! There are many verses of scripture that confirm this, a few are as follows: 1 Timothy 2:3-6 states " For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our(yours, mine and everyone's) Saviour; who will have all(each and every one) men to be saved, and come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all(everyone), to be testified in due time". Titus 2:11 " For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men". 2 Thessalonians 2:13 " But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification(being made Holy) of the Spirit and belief of the truth". Romans 1:6 " Among whom are ye(you) also called of Jesus Christ". 1 Corinthians 7:17 " But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord the Lord hath(has) called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches". Fear: Luke 1:74-75 "That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear. In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life". Have a blessed day knowing that he is the living God who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe(not just those that believe-but then you come to the conclusion that every one believes-just keep studying to show thyself approved) 1 Timothy 4:10.

But that is not really an answer to what he said in regards to Matthew 7. Please use the context of Matthew 7. There are believers who think they are genuine but Christ tells them to depart from them because they work iniquity. Iniquity is sin. So this means you cannot work iniquity or sin or Jesus will say he never knew you (As for Jesus saying, I never knew you - See Ezekiel 18:24).


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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
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Ephesians 4:1 he chose us IN him. ( already saved)

When you read Ephesians 4:1, you also have to read Ephesians 5:3-7 that says,

3 "But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them."

StanJ said:
Paul expands on this and Romans 8:28-30

When you read Romans 8:28-30, you also have to read Romans 8:6-8 and Romans 8:1 that says,

6 "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
(Romans 8:1).

StanJ said:
Revelation 17:8 is about when the Book of Life was established, not when the names are written in it.

Scripture speaks from different perspectives many times.

Those who took the Mark of the Beast is speaking from God's eternal perspective. For if you take the Mark of the Beast there is no chance of you to be saved afterwards. That is why their names are not written in the Lamb's book since the foundation of the world. There is no hope for these types of individuals.

As for others: Well, names can be blotted out of the book of life (Which suggests that you can be saved for a time and then lose that salvation).

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels" (Revelation 3:5).

StanJ said:
Jesus will say 'I never knew you', to all the actors who faked their salvation and just played Church.

Yes, this would also apply to anyone who is trying to justify sin, too. For God cannot agree with a person's sin and or a doctrine that makes an allowance for them to remain in their sins. Saying that future sin is paid for can give a persont the wrong idea if you do not explain yourself properly. They will think they have a license to sin (Which would be wrong).

As for playing church:
Yes, I believe most Pastors and churches today are not striving to get others to live like Jesus by helping people to preach the gospel to others and or to help the poor and or for them to live more holy lives. Churches today are more interested in your wallet then your well being spiritually with God. For the church are a people and not a building or a place with a bunch of programs that serve the fleshy needs of the person rather than their spiritual needs.


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