Do I have to be totally free of sin to retain my salvation?

[Travis93]

Romans 8:1 says there's no condemnation to those who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit. Romans 8:6 says to be carnally minded is death and Romans 8:7 says that is is enmity against God. Romans 8:13 says if you live after the flesh you will die. Galatians 6:8 says whoever sows to the flesh reaps destruction and only those who sow to the Spirit reap everlasting life. Now since everyone dies, do these refer to spiritual death, as in loss of salvation?

Now I've made some progress in removing the sin from my life. I gave up playing video games, all secular movies/TV/music, my addiction to caffeine from sodas, masturbating, and so on. But I just can't seem to be free of sin even one day. Idle words, foolish thoughts, having the opportunity to do good and not doing it, these things just seem impossible to manage. Should I just give up and live however I want since I'm heading to Hell anyway?

 

[Mediaeval]

Don’t forget Romans 7, which shows that we have both the mind of the flesh and the mind of the Spirit operating in us, all the while remaining God’s forgiven and justified children in Christ. We are justified, that is, acquitted, declared not guilty. Just as Jesus did not hold the sins of His murderers against them, so God does not hold our sins against us. He makes us aware of our sins with a view to healing us, not make us feel hopeless. Don't make yourself miserable with despairing thoughts, but accept your Lord's forgiveness and begin anew the battle against sin as often as necessary, even if it's every minute. Reject those thoughts that prevent you from always rejoicing in the Lord.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Dear Travis:

Don't listen to anyone who says you can do evil and still be good or in God's good graces.
It doesn't work like that.
Never give up in doing what is good and right.
Sanctification or overcoming sin can be a life time process for a lot of believers.
The bulk or majority of Romans 7 is Paul talking from his perspective as a Jew before he became a Christian.
Paul was under a strict set of rules alone (without God) for his salvation (Before he came to Christ).
In Romans 7:14, Paul says he is sold under sin and yet in Romans 8:2, Paul says he is free from sin.
So unless Paul has a split personality disorder, he was simply talking from two different perspectives to illustrate a point.
That point was that a person cannot hope to be set free from sin by following a set of rules alone without Jesus Christ.
But we are to obey the Commands in the New Testament.
There are dire consequences to our soul in the after life if we break certain commands.
Matthew 5:28-30 says if we look upon a woman in lust, we commit adultery and we can be cast bodily into hell fire for it.
Matthew 6:15 says if we do not forgive, then we will not be forgiven by the Father.
John says if we hate our brother we are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding within them (1 John 3:15).
John also says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8).

Jesus says that he will send forth his angels to remove out of his Kingdom all who do iniquity (sin) whereby they will be cast into the furnace of fire (Matthew 13:41-42).

In other words, all who proclaim to be a part of Christ's Kingdom today who do sinful things will be removed at the Judgment and cast into the Lake of Fire. To put it to you another way, just because a person believes in Jesus does not mean that they are saved. Belief is a part of our faith, but what does one's faith or belief look like? Is a dead demon belief type faith? (See James 2). The Bible says, without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). Jesus says he that does not do what he says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand whereby when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27).


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[Bible Highlighter]

Travis:

Please check out these videos here:

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[nobdysfool]

Keep in mind that those who would put you under such bondage are not sinlessly perfect themselves, and therefore cannot really be authorities on that which they have not yet attained (and truthfully, never will attain).

 

[StanJ]

Romans 8:1 says there's no condemnation to those who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit. Romans 8:6 says to be carnally minded is death and Romans 8:7 says that is is enmity against God. Romans 8:13 says if you live after the flesh you will die. Galatians 6:8 says whoever sows to the flesh reaps destruction and only those who sow to the Spirit reap everlasting life. Now since everyone dies, do these refer to spiritual death, as in loss of salvation?
Now I've made some progress in removing the sin from my life. I gave up playing video games, all secular movies/TV/music, my addiction to caffeine from sodas, masturbating, and so on. But I just can't seem to be free of sin even one day. Idle words, foolish thoughts, having the opportunity to do good and not doing it, these things just seem impossible to manage. Should I just give up and live however I want since I'm heading to Hell anyway?

Paul says; "Whatever is not of faith is sin". This of course does beg the question how can you faithfully not sin, and the answer is you can't, nor should you worry about it.
I think a good exercise for you would be to study and read the Epistles of John. They give a very succinct instruction on how we are to walk before the Lord.

 

[football5680]

You do not have to be totally free of sin but this is that goal that you must strive for. This understanding should not be taken as a free pass to sin because in this case, it would affect your salvation. To be forgiven, you must be sincerely sorry for what you did and you cannot be sincere if you committed the sin just because you believed there would be no consequences for it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Keep in mind that those who would put you under such bondage are not sinlessly perfect themselves, and therefore cannot really be authorities on that which they have not yet attained (and truthfully, never will attain).

It's not about reaching a state of Sinless Perfectionism in this life so as to be saved. Sinless Perfectionism (in this life) is the goal and end result of Sanctification. However, if one is not in the Sanctfication process in being made more holy (Instead of them sinning all the time thinking they are saved), then they are not saved. For Jesus says, "not everyone who says unto me Lord, Lord, will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he that does the will of the Father" (Matthew 7:21). What is the will of the Father or the will of God according to Scripture? 1 Thessalonians 4:3 says the will of God is our Sanctification (or for us to be holy). For without holiness no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

As for whether or not it is possible to stop sinning in this life: You may be unaware that thru the history of the Bible, God worked miracles so as to defeat impossible odds or to do the impossible for God's people. God made it possible for a small army to defeat an enemy army that was much greater in numbers. In fact, there were "so called believers in God" back in that time who also doubted God and said it was not possible. In fact, in another time, the Israelites who did not believe they could enter the Promised Land because of the giants in the land were not able to enter the Promised Land. So it had to do with a lack of faith or belief in God. It is no different today. What is your faith? Do you believe that with God all things are possible? Jesus said, "with God all things are possible." Jesus said this as a reply to his disciples who asked, "Who then can be saved?" in regards to Jesus' words when the rich man walked away sad because he was not willing to give up his riches to follow Jesus (See Matthew 19:22-26).

Jesus says be ye perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48).
Jesus said to two people to "sin no more." (John 5:14) (John 8:11).
In fact, Jesus said a worse thing would come upon one of them if they did not stop sinning.
So yes, it is possible to stop sinning.

This is by the power of Christ (God) of course.
For it is written,

26 "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my judgments, and do them."
(Ezekiel 36:26-27).



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[shakewell]

Romans 8:1 says there's no condemnation to those who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit. Romans 8:6 says to be carnally minded is death and Romans 8:7 says that is is enmity against God. Romans 8:13 says if you live after the flesh you will die. Galatians 6:8 says whoever sows to the flesh reaps destruction and only those who sow to the Spirit reap everlasting life. Now since everyone dies, do these refer to spiritual death, as in loss of salvation?

Now I've made some progress in removing the sin from my life. I gave up playing video games, all secular movies/TV/music, my addiction to caffeine from sodas, masturbating, and so on. But I just can't seem to be free of sin even one day. Idle words, foolish thoughts, having the opportunity to do good and not doing it, these things just seem impossible to manage. Should I just give up and live however I want since I'm heading to Hell anyway?

I do almost all that stuff; play games, watch secular movies/TV/music, drink caffeine, speak idle words, have foolish thoughts, etc. I'm saved and eternally secure. I don't lift a finger to "retain" my salvation.

You'll drive yourself nuts trying to do all those pennants, plus you'll never succeed. The more pennants you complete the more pennants you'll discover that you haven't done yet. It never ends. It's the devil's little trick - there's no grace there.

If you are trusting the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior then you're "in Christ Jesus". Walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit; not to avoid the condemnation of hell but to avoid the condemnation that is described in the previous verses in chapter 7.

Walking after the Spirit will help you succeed in your daily practical sanctification. It will make you happy with the joy of the Lord. When you sin, confess it in order to restore fellowship with God (not to retain salvation). I have days when I sin/confess, sin/confess, sin/confess. Putting off the old man and putting on the new man can be quite a battle. But my eternal salvation is never at stake.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I do almost all that stuff; play games, watch secular movies/TV/music, drink caffeine, speak idle words, have foolish thoughts, etc. I'm saved and eternally secure. I don't lift a finger to "retain" my salvation.

You'll drive yourself nuts trying to do all those pennants, plus you'll never succeed. The more pennants you complete the more pennants you'll discover that you haven't done yet. It never ends. It's the devil's little trick - there's no grace there.

If you are trusting the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior then you're "in Christ Jesus". Walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit; not to avoid the condemnation of hell but to avoid the condemnation that is described in the previous verses in chapter 7.

Walking after the Spirit will help you succeed in your daily practical sanctification. It will make you happy with the joy of the Lord. When you sin, confess it in order to restore fellowship with God (not to retain salvation). I have days when I sin/confess, sin/confess, sin/confess. Putting off the old man and putting on the new man can be quite a battle. But my eternal salvation is never at stake.

The very verse you quote refutes you. Let's read Romans 8:1 in what it says.

1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
(Romans 8:1).​

Are you walking after the flesh or are you walking after the Spirit?

According to Romans 8:1, there is no Condemnation to those who walk after the Spirit.
If you sin, and walk after the flesh, you are under the Condemnation.
If you do not sin and walk after the Spirit, you are not under the Condemnation.

Most Eternal Security Proponents believe that you are not under any kind of Law.
Most of them also believe they are not fulfilling any righteousness of the Law, too.
But that is not what the Scriptures say.

4 "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit."​

Stop right here.

They that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh. You said you sin all the time and do sinful things. Are you walking after the Spirit when you sin? Is there an option here in Romans 8 by Paul that says you can walk after the flesh and also after the Spirit?

Anyways, lets keep reading.

6 "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace."
(Romans 8:6).​

Did you catch that?
To be carnally minded is death.
This would be spiritual death because most everybody physically dies.
In fact, the Lake of Fire is called, the "Second Death." (Which is a reference to "spiritual death").

Okay, let's continue to keep reading.

7 "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."
(Romans 8:7-8).​

The above passage here says they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
So no. You cannot be in the flesh and please God. Those who do not please God will not be in Heaven. To say so otherwise would be a contradiction in terms.

Romans 8 does not give you the option of walking after both the flesh and the Spirit.
Jesus says you cannot serve two masters, for you will hate the one and love the other (Matthew 6:24).
Scriptures says we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).


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[Travis93]

Reading 1 Corinthians, these believers are extremely carnal (fornicating, taking each other to the law, divisions, envying, coming to the Lord's Supper drunk, etc), yet Paul calls them "brothers", "saints", and "sanctified in Christ Jesus". How does this fit in with what Romans said about the requirement to walk after the spirit instead of the flesh?

 

[sdowney717]

God does not continue to add up you sins and weigh them against a balance of perfectionism to determine if you are worthy to be in His kingdom.
2 Corinthians 5, note v19, not counting people's sins against them!
We also should regard no one from a worldly POV, but regard them as being new creations in Christ, having their sins forgiven.

16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer.
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!
18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

This does not mean you will not fall into sins after being saved and become a new creature in Christ. We still live in a fallen world.

Now if anyone calls himself a brother but lives an immoral unrepentant lifestyle, we have warnings about associating with what is called an apostate or hypocrite, who show to all the church that they are liars. They are to put out of the church, and God will judge them. I really beieve if we are not obedient to that command, God will arrange circumstances and do so eventually. Those in the church are to live moral lives worshipping Christ. He does discipline His own people so they will not be condemned along with the world.

1 Cor 5
Immorality Must Be Judged
9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people.10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Reading 1 Corinthians, these believers are extremely carnal (fornicating, taking each other to the law, divisions, envying, coming to the Lord's Supper drunk, etc), yet Paul calls them "brothers", "saints", and "sanctified in Christ Jesus". How does this fit in with what Romans said about the requirement to walk after the spirit instead of the flesh?

First, sin is transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4); And not all sins are the same. Obviously the sin of murder and the sin of not being baptized are not the same kinds of sins (See 1 John 3:15 and 1 Peter 3:21). 1 John 5:16-18 says there are sins that lead into death and sins that do not lead unto death. Seeing everyone dies physically, the word "death" here is in reference to spiritual death. Also, the epistle of John makes no reference to physical death as a part of his talk in regards to eternal life. Also, Revelation 21:8 says the Lake of Fire is the Second Death. So there are degrees of carnality. The sin of those Corinthians who were boasting in each other was not a sin that leads unto spiritual death. For the Scriptures say he who knows to do good and he does it not, to him it is sin. So if Bob did not take out the trash last week like he knew he supposed to do, does that mean he will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire for such a sin? No. Of course not.

Second, please show me where Paul says those who fornicate and get drunk are saints and brothers in the same sentence or same paragraph. You will not find such a verse or passage in Scripture. What you will find is Paul greeting the faithful saints within the Corinthian church as a part of his letter to them. What you will find is Paul addressing specific individuals who sinned. In fact, in 1 Corinthians 5, Paul tells the Corinthians to kick out that person who is fornicating. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 says we are not to be deceived into thinking that the unrighteous shall inherit the kingdom of God. I highly doubt Paul was warning believers not to be tricked into believing in Universal Salvation.

But if you think a believer can get away with sexual sin and still be saved, then you are gravely mistaken. Jesus says if you look upon a woman in lust, your whole body could be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). Revelation 21:8 also says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. There is no mention of anywhere in the Bible that says there are individuals who are the exception to the rule on this.



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[Bible Highlighter]

God does not continue to add up you sins and weigh them against a balance of perfectionism to determine if you are worthy to be in His kingdom.
2 Corinthians 5, note v19, not counting people's sins against them!
We also should regard no one from a worldly POV, but regard them as being new creations in Christ, having their sins forgiven.

16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer.
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!
18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

This does not mean you will not fall into sins after being saved and become a new creature in Christ. We still live in a fallen world.

Now if anyone calls himself a brother but lives an immoral unrepentant lifestyle, we have warnings about associating with what is called an apostate or hypocrite, who show to all the church that they are liars. They are to put out of the church, and God will judge them. I really beieve if we are not obedient to that command, God will arrange circumstances and do so eventually. Those in the church are to live moral lives worshipping Christ. He does discipline His own people so they will not be condemned along with the world.

1 Cor 5
Immorality Must Be Judged
9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people.10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

This is talking about sins that are confessed and forsaken. Nowhere does the Bible teach future sin is forgiven you. See 1 John 1:7, 1 John 1:9, Proverbs 28:13, Ezekiel 18:24.


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[StanJ]

It's not about reaching a state of Sinless Perfectionism in this life so as to be saved. Sinless Perfectionism (in this life) is the goal and end result of Sanctification. However, if one is not in the Sanctfication process in being made more holy (Instead of them sinning all the time thinking they are saved), then they are not saved. For Jesus says, "not everyone who says unto me Lord, Lord, will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he that does the will of the Father" (Matthew 7:21). What is the will of the Father or the will of God according to Scripture? 1 Thessalonians 4:3 says the will of God is our Sanctification (or for us to be holy). For without holiness no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

We are Sanctified and Justified when we are saved. 1 Cor 6:11 (NIV)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We are Sanctified and Justified when we are saved. 1 Cor 6:11 (NIV)

Try reading 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. Paul says be not deceived into thinking that the unrighteous will inherit the Kingdom of God. Paul does not differentiate between sinning believers and sinning unbelievers here. Paul simply lists those who commit certain sins will not inherit the Kingdom of God. John uses similar wording but a little more boldly in Revelation 21:8. John says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. John does not say whether or not there are another group of people who can lie and not have their part in the Lake of Fire.

...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Also, most Eternal Security Proponents will say they are not under any kind of law salvation wise, too. But if this is true, then nobody is under the penalty of disobeying the Command or Law (the sin) of not believing in Jesus, as well (See 1 John 3:23). For sin is transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4).


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[StanJ]

Try reading 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. Paul says be not deceived into thinking that the unrighteous will inherit the Kingdom of God. Paul does not differentiate between sinning believers and sinning unbelievers here. Paul simply lists those who commit certain sins will not inherit the Kingdom of God. John uses similar wording but a little more boldly in Revelation 21:8. John says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. John does not say whether or not there are another group of people who can lie and not have their part in the Lake of Fire.

Well that's not quite what Paul says in 1st Corinthians 6 and we really don't need you paraphrasing it to know what it does say all we have to do is read it. Paul is referring to unrepentant sinners which is very evident by the fact that he says in v11; "that is what some of you were."
Jesus is our righteousness and we receive that righteousness when we confess him as our savior just as Paul says in Romans 10:9-11.
What both Paul and John indicate is a sinful unrepentant lifestyle not a repentant person who occasionally sins.
1 John 2:1-2
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[StanJ]

Also, most Eternal Security Proponents will say they are not under any kind of law salvation wise, too. But if this is true, then nobody is under the penalty of disobeying the Command or Law (the sin) of not believing in Jesus, as well (See 1 John 3:23). For sin is transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4).

Only for those who are still under the law. I'm not quite sure what that has to do with OSAS though?

 

[Jason Sanders]

Romans 8:1 says there's no condemnation to those who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit. Romans 8:6 says to be carnally minded is death and Romans 8:7 says that is is enmity against God. Romans 8:13 says if you live after the flesh you will die. Galatians 6:8 says whoever sows to the flesh reaps destruction and only those who sow to the Spirit reap everlasting life. Now since everyone dies, do these refer to spiritual death, as in loss of salvation?

Now I've made some progress in removing the sin from my life. I gave up playing video games, all secular movies/TV/music, my addiction to caffeine from sodas, masturbating, and so on. But I just can't seem to be free of sin even one day. Idle words, foolish thoughts, having the opportunity to do good and not doing it, these things just seem impossible to manage. Should I just give up and live however I want since I'm heading to Hell anyway?

This is something a lot of Christians struggle with, and something that a lot of them fail to get away from.

When Christ died on the Cross, He said "It is finished!" This means that His work, His purpose for coming (that is, to die as a sacrifice for all the sins of the world) was fulfilled. Meaning that all your sins, from the day you were born to the day you die, were forgiven at the very moment he died.

What this means is that you, having been rescued from sin, are now a new creation- it is no longer you who sin, but your flesh (that is, your imperfect body that has yet to be transformed), and that this sin, though still wrong, is no longer mortal (aka it no longer kills your spirit, for Christ has already forgiven you and given you a new, pure spirit at the moment of your salvation).

With this is mind, remember who you are (that is, who God says you are)- a Son of God, holy and set apart, a great and powerful King who has strength enough to run the race, so long as you rely on Him. Renew your mind (by reading His Word and conversing with His Spirit in prayer and worship) daily, and, should you stumble, know that you are forgiven, remember all that God has done for you, and let His Spirit empower you so that you may resist all temptation, so that you may not sin.