DINOSAURS! Noah's Flood & other awesome questions.

[pat34lee]

Not even close. And I also notice that you ignored my answer to your question about evolving dogs.

I've gone back 4 or 5 pages and can't find it. Please restate the question.

 

[Speedwell]

I've gone back 4 or 5 pages and can't find it. Please restate the question.

As for the challenge, use your own terms if you fail to understand
mine. How can evolution change a dog into something not a dog,
and how long would it take?

First, evolutionary biologists don't see speciation as a big deal. Species aren't pre-existing categories into which creatures evolve; they are descriptive, not prescriptive. When part of a population is subjected to different selection criteria than the rest, it will evolve to meet those new criteria. If it evolves enough that the two groups are no longer interfertile, a new species is said to have formed. But the process is slow and partial interfertility will last a long time. There is no "hard line" between species. That is why the determination of species is sometimes difficult and can be controversial.

How does it happen? No offspring is exactly the same as its parent. In each generation the population will present a range of variants to the environment for selection. For a given heritable trait, the length of a limb, say, the distribution of variation will be random (think "bell curve"). Most variation will be near the average, with outriders at either extreme, like a bell curve. If selection criteria are stable, the central group will survive to reproduce, the outriders not so much. However, if the selection criteria change, there will be already in the population at least a few individuals on the edges to take advantage of the situation. As they reproduce more successfully, generation by generation, than the individuals nearer the original central tendency and on the other side of it, the central tendency will shift in that direction, producing more outriders to take advantage of further shifts in selection criteria.

And so on. How long? Hard to say. It depends on the size and diversity of the gene pool and the degree of selection pressure. Maintaining the diversity of the gene pool is key to to successful evolution; a population of clones would generate little or no variation and would not be able to evolve. Gene pool diversity is also reduced by the normal action of natural selection. That's where mutations and other contributors of diversity come in.

 

[pat34lee]

Right. And it is well understood by geologists that under the right conditions lithified strata can fold without fracturing. The phenomenon can even be demonstrated in a laboratory.

So how did miles of rock get inverted without breaking?
And how did hundreds of feet of pure chalk become the cliffs of Dover?
Uniformity doesn't explain it.

 

[pat34lee]

As for the challenge, use your own terms if you fail to understand
mine. How can evolution change a dog into something not a dog,
and how long would it take?

First, evolutionary biologists don't see speciation as a big deal. Species aren't pre-existing categories into which creatures evolve; they are descriptive, not prescriptive. When part of a population is subjected to different selection criteria than the rest, it will evolve to meet those new criteria. If it evolves enough that the two groups are no longer interfertile, a new species is said to have formed. But the process is slow and partial interfertility will last a long time. There is no "hard line" between species. That is why the determination of species is sometimes difficult and can be controversial.

Actually, there is always a hard line. Dogs for example will only get so
small, or so large, so far in any direction, before the DNA says 'stop'.
Past that, if you keep trying, you get too inbred and end up sterile or
dead. They prove this every day in animal breeding and science has
proven it many times using bacteria and fruit flies. Agricultural science
has proven it with so many crops. You can only push genetics so far
without it pushing back. That is why they rely on genetic modifications
now, which is the ONLY way to introduce truly new features.

 

[Speedwell]

Actually, there is always a hard line. Dogs for example will only get so
small, or so large, so far in any direction, before the DNA says 'stop'.
Past that, if you keep trying, you get too inbred and end up sterile or
dead. They prove this every day in animal breeding and science has
proven it many times using bacteria and fruit flies. Agricultural science
has proven it with so many crops. You can only push genetics so far
without it pushing back. That is why they rely on genetic modifications
now, which is the ONLY way to introduce truly new features.

Yes, it's as I suggested. Forced breeding depletes the gene pool faster than it can be replenished and variation (the basis of evolution) decreases.

But I don't care if you think the theory of evolution is not correct. We're just talking about what it actually claims.
In particular, I am interested to see how far you will go to defend the bogus version peddled by the Creationist propaganda mills and, if possible, find out why.

 

[pat34lee]

But I don't care if you think the theory of evolution is not correct. We're just talking about what it actually claims.
In particular, I am interested to see how far you will go to defend the bogus version peddled by the Creationist propaganda mills and, if possible, find out why.

How far will you defend the bogus version of evolution and long earth ages
peddled by the media, government and humanists behind the 'science'?

IOW, do you believe in the oort cloud? Dark matter? Both
were invented to cover gaping holes in the long age theories.

How is soft tissue somehow able to last hundreds of millions of
years when they know full well the maximum is more in the range
of thousands or tens of thousands of years? And it isn't as if the
bones were frozen or preserved in any way, which still would not
last the length of time required.

 

[Colter]

Colter- you do realize that the drawing is showing that India moved but the continent of Asia does not, right?

I get the impression that you haven't been educated in continental drift?

 

[Colter]

The future of continental drift:

 

[Speedwell]

How far will you defend the bogus version of evolution and long earth ages
peddled by the media, government and humanists behind the 'science'?

So I'm the one with the bogus version? (Since this discussion is not about whether the theory of evolution is true, but about what it says, when you claim my version is bogus I have to assume that what you mean is not that it doesn't work, but that it is not the real theory.)

You propose an interesting scenario. Basically what you are saying is, that the version of evolution most of us non--YECs are familiar with* is a counterfeit, a plausible but counterfeit theory of evolution fabricated by science as a cover for their real but unworkable theory of evolution, which they keep as a secret that only you and they know about.

So here are some questions about it which come to mind:

Why don't they just go with the plausible theory that most of us think is the real theory anyway? Why stick with the unworkable version?

If these scientists have managed to keep their unworkable version secret from non-YECs, even from many biologists working in the field, how did the Creationist ministries find out about it?

* A good introduction for the layman to this version of the theory is What Evolution Is, by the late Ernst Mayr. Mayr (d. 2005) was one of the leading evolutionary biologists of his day and wrote the book specifically to counter the misinformation about what the theory says put out by the Creationist ministries.

(Or, as in the tale you are spinning for us, he was bolstering the counterfeit but plausible theory in the public mind to help conceal the real but unworkable theory which science has succeeded in keeping secret from everybody but the Creationist ministries. Still, it's an interesting read.)

 

[Colter]

It's also in the 18th chapter. Babylon is where evolution began in their religious text Enuma elish.

When God planted life on earth is when the evolution of life began. Before that the earth evolved to it's present size, developing an atmosphere that could sustain life. The fossil record and the geological strata is simply the record of creation in motion. Evolution is Gods way on this world.

 

[Commander]

When God planted life on earth is when the evolution of life began. Before that the earth evolved to it's present size, developing an atmosphere that could sustain life. The fossil record and the geological strata is simply the record of creation in motion. Evolution is Gods way on this world.

Brother, it seems to me that you worship the creation, more than the Creator! "For by the greatness and beauty of the creatures proportionably the maker of them is seen. But yet for this they are less to be blamed: for they peradventure err, seeking God, and desirous to find him." Wisdom of Solomon 13:5-6.

 

[Colter]

Brother, it seems to me that you worship the creation, more than the Creator! "For by the greatness and beauty of the creatures proportionably the maker of them is seen. But yet for this they are less to be blamed: for they peradventure err, seeking God, and desirous to find him." Wisdom of Solomon 13:5-6.

That's very presumptuous of you and not true. We have been discussing that which God created based on the fingerprint we find in his creation.

The creation story written by Hebrew holy men is just a story written long ago in an age of ignorance. It served a purpose then but now is actually a stumbling block for people who might otherwise find truth in the revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

[Commander]

I get the impression that you haven't been educated in continental drift?

I have an education on continental drift. I also have an education in MATH! According to the theory of continental drift- the tectonic plates drift at 0.8 inches per year. When you are educated in math you can take a number like 0.8(the distance according to the theory) and times it by 4,500,000,000(years/age of earth according to some scientist ) and get the answer of 3,600,000,000 then you can divide it by 5,280(the feet in one mile) and get the answer of 681818.18 miles, and divide it by 24,901 miles(the circumference of the earth) and get the answer of 27.381. 27 times the tectonic plates have circled the globe, according to the theory of continental drift...that is how much the continents have drifted! It is even mathematically impossible!

 

[Commander]

but now is actually a stumbling block for people who might otherwise find truth in the revelation of Jesus Christ.

And I see evolution as the stumbling block, we all search for truth which is our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, for He is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 1 Timothy 4:10. Have a blessed day brother!

 

[Colter]

I have an education on continental drift. I also have an education in MATH! According to the theory of continental drift- the tectonic plates drift at 0.8 inches per year. When you are educated in math you can take a number like 0.8(the distance according to the theory) and times it by 4,500,000,000(years/age of earth according to some scientist ) and get the answer of 3,600,000,000 then you can divide it by 5,280(the feet in one mile) and get the answer of 681818.18 miles, and divide it by 24,901 miles(the circumference of the earth) and get the answer of 27.381. 27 times the tectonic plates have circled the globe, according to the theory of continental drift...that is how much the continents have drifted! It is even mathematically impossible!

The earth wasn't it's present size 4.5 billion years ago, through the process of accretion earth reached it's present size about 1 billion years ago with continued bombardment of asteroids. If you are going to get snarky and lecture people about math then you need to know what you are talking about.

And prior to the last breakup of Pangea land masses were floating on the magma all over the place, separating, conjoining, shrinking and expanding.

 

[Colter]

And I see evolution as the stumbling block, we all search for truth which is our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, for He is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 1 Timothy 4:10. Have a blessed day brother!

I do believe in Jesus, I just don't believe in the self important stories written by the ancestors of those who rejected and killed Jesus.

For evolutionist such as myself, science is not a matter of faith, spirituality is the faith part of my life. Science is a search for material facts, religion is the search for spiritual truth.

 

[Colter]

 

[RickG]

Not when there were no major oceans before the flood and
no thousands of years of water washing off the land, carrying
salt into the oceans. Even the dead sea wasn't salty at one
point.

Yup! Just make it up as you go along.

 

[RickG]

So how did miles of rock get inverted without breaking?

Folds are not miles in length. You are making stuff up again.

And how did hundreds of feet of pure chalk become the cliffs of Dover?

It is a limestone composed of single-celled planktonic algae called coccolithophores. Gazillions upon countless gazillions. That accumulate at a rate of less than an inch per thousand years.

Uniformity doesn't explain it.

Then you have physical empirical evidence to the contrary?

 

[Commander]

Stasis- to remain the same.

Stephen J. Gould-"stasis is a recognized principle in fossil discovery..." "Stasis is now generally recognized as an intriguing puzzle by evolutionist. No definite solution is in sight." Stephen J. Gould, "Opus 200," Natural History, August 1991, p. 16.

Now here is stasis and some sight: "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever." Hebrews 13:8. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." John 1:1-3.