Before I go further, if you do not refrain from splitting my statements up to individual sentences, I will refrain from allowing what I deem to be useless posts that intentionally seek to take my statements out of context. If you do not refrain from removing Scriptures from my posts, then I will refrain from discussing Scripture with someone who does not believe Scripture to be of any meaning or importance. Are we clear?
Ah, I see. So if after being beaten within an inch of his life by Sal the Enforcer, Joey the Chump realizes the error of his ways and promises to pay every penny he owes by Thursday, as long as Sal didn't rewire Joey or alter Joey's source code, then the decision to pay his losses plus accumulated vig was purely a Free Will decision on Joey's part, and no coercion involved at all.
Right.
There are PLENTY of times people have refused God's will even after extreme punishment by Him. Even Balaam attempted AGAIN to curse Israel after his initial failure. There are also plenty of times that people refuse to play along with torture, as there has NEVER been a time wherein torture has yielded information on terrorism, as evidenced by the statements of the CIA, whose head still claims that torture is useful, which is quite...ironic.
Really? Care to share some examples? Next person I see who chooses not to sin, and then doesn't sin, will make a grand total of one. And if we're all able to simply will ourselves not to sin (or lose weight, or quit drinking, or give up heroin) why do we need a Savior? We just need motivational posters.
Well, Scripture says they exist. Do you dare to say Scriptures lie when Scriptures say that Gentiles without the law do what is contained within the law? These are people who, at least part of the time, choose not to sin. And you can't achieve salvation by mere lack of sin. Remember what Christ says, eternal life is not merely living forever, life eternal is to know God and His Son. One cannot know God and His Son only by avoiding sin. One must have a relationship with Him to gain salvation. Sin is merely that which originally severed our relationship, and is the reason for which Christ came to reconcile that relationship and make it possible once more for man to enter a relationship with God through Christ. This is why, even though many Orthodox believe Mary to have been sinless (I myself being on the fence as it really isn't of salvific importance, except for this explanation), she still needed a Savior, as she herself stated in the Magnificat, as seen in Scripture after her initial meeting with Elizabeth.
You haven't given me an example of those sinless gentiles yet, so I'm not ready to give much (OK, any) creedence (sic) to your claim.
I didn't say sinless. I said that they chose not to sin. I did not say they ALWAYS chose not to sin. But since you say that Free Will is ONLY useful for making the choice to sin, the existence of Scripture saying that, at least in some instances, men use their free will to avoid sin even without knowing the law, is enough to completely dismantle your absolute assertion that free will is ONLY evidenced by sin. The fact that God orders us to CHOOSE, and even before the regeneration of the Cross, men in Scripture chose to follow the Lord (as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord), is evidence ALSO of free will. God doesn't say things which are useless. If we cannot choose to follow God when God tells us to follow Him, then His telling us to follow Him is useless
Sorry, knowing the Law isn't at all the same as following it. And you're still gonna have to show me this paragon you've found who not only knows the Law, but keeps it, of His own Free Will.
The reason we know they know the law in their hearts is BECAUSE they follow it. This is why it says "they who do not have the law, but DO THAT WHICH IS CONTAINED IN THE LAW". Scripture says they do it, Scripture says they exist. Therefore either scripture is right, and you are wrong, or you are right and Scripture is wrong. I choose to believe the former, because Scripture trumps Fatalistic Hellenism every time. (yes, I will continue to call your belief by its original form of Fatalistic Hellenism, because that is what the doctrine of Predestination is)
Red Herring. Free Will certainly exists, we prove it every time we sin. Our Will is corrupt, like the rest of us, and thus we sin constantly.
Free Will goes both ways. Free will exists ONLY if choice to do good OR evil exists. Did Adam eat of the tree of the knowledge of good? Or the knowledge of good and evil. If a man knows something, then he can do it. Good is, essentially, not difficult to do, in fact. It is easy to feed the hungry. It is easy to clothe the naked. It is easy to give drink to the thirsty. There isn't a single command in Scripture which is impossible for the man to do. And a number of examples can be found of men who are certainly not Christians following any number of them. Remember, I'm not making an absolute argument as you are. I am making an argument that free will can be used in both directions, such that there are serial murderers who also give food to the hungry, and pathological liars who also visit people in the nursing home. Men are anachronistic beings with no shortage of contradictions and flaws, but also no shortage of beautiful acts of strength and love, all existing in each person individually. None is perfectly perfect, but none is completely depraved, as Calvin would argue, for if they are completely depraved, then all actions of salvation, even those of an infinite God, would not be able to bring salvation to a person who was infinitely depraved, because no infinite can be greater than any other infinite.
You have a very, shall we say, interesting view of what the Body of Christ is about, or Scripture and evangelism. You really think it's salesmanship that get's people saved? And that the Church is only about altar calls and Sinner's Prayers? But then. maybe it is all about marketing, and all we have to do is decide to be sinless. So why, then, did God have to die? Was that just a publicity stunt?
No, evangelism is about getting a person to make a choice. My church doesn't have altar calls or sinner's prayers (unless you count praying through Psalm 51. Christ came and died to come to where we were, not just earth, but to the grave, to sheol (which is not hell, because sheol does not mean hell). This is why some of the earliest songs about Christ's Resurrection are "Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the grave bestowing life". Our souls, before Christ, existed in the grave, and Christ went down to the grave to rescue our souls and to pull them out of the grave and return them to us. This is what regeneration is. And on that day, EVERY soul was returned to the man from whence it came, both back in time and forward. And through His Death, what Ignatius of Antioch would call "The Medicine of Immortality" was given to all mankind, if they will choose to drink it.
The reason He came to earth was salvation. The reason He died was to give us immortality, and the reason He came back to life was to regenerate ALL of mankind. Notice here that salvation is not starting in the Crucifixion, but in the very Incarnation. "God became man, so that we might become like God" (St. Cyprian of Carthage).
But by your lights, God doesn't need to give anything, all we have to do is Will it so. Matter of fact, as I understand it in your economy, God is incapable of intervening to affect anyone's decision, as that would tread on their Free Will. Thus the "Poor God, He can't...". lunacy. (Which makes me wonder, do y'all ever pray for God for save someone, or is that just too coercive?)
If eternal life were limited to simple freedom from sin, then you would be right, but a person will never be saved by simply being perfect and sinless, because he lacks something that saves: oneness with God. And oneness with God is impossible without the God Who became one with man (as stated in the Creed of Chalcedon, that Christ is of one essence with God according to the divine nature, and of one essence with man according to the human nature).
Nah, nothing Hellenistic, or Fatalistic for that matter, about believing that if anyone is saved, it is God who does the saving. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." The old Saint must have forgotten to mention the "and our Free Will" part.
No. What is hellenistic Fatalism is the belief that man is FATED (Predestined) to be good or evil. That is pure, unadulterated, pagan Fatalism according to textbook definition. Just because you replace the words "good" and "evil" with "elect" and "reprobate" does not change what you are teaching. Replacement of terms is not alteration of teaching.