Christianity and free will

Jipsah

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And let's not forget that Jonah also volunteered himself to be thrown into the sea in the story, admitting to his peers that it was he who was the cause of the storm, when he could have chosen not to say anything.
And the net result would have been different how?
 
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sculleywr

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And the net result would have been different how?
Jonah, of his own will, owned up to what he had done and accepted the consequences. Jonah probably expected the Lord to end his life then and there. God did not rewire Jonah against his will. He did not alter the thought process Jonah had by opening up the line of Jonah code and hacking him into a more obedient servant. God treated him as a child, and not as a computer program. Jonah eventually did the right thing of his own free will. And we know FOR A FACT that people can do this, as St. Paul writes of people who do this:

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

So not only are the Gentiles doing good, but they are doing good BY NATURE. The natural man is capable of choosing not to sin, because the Gentiles do BY NATURE avoid sin. This is completely and utterly impossible if the Free Will of man is not truly free. What's more? Paul says that this law unto themselves can actually defend them:

Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

These are people who have never been taught the law of God that are following the law, and this law that is in their heart can both accuse them AND excuse them. Again, this is completely impossible if Free Will is not truly free.

If Free will does not exist. If God creates men to be either reprobate or elect, then there is absolutely no purpose to Scripture, evangelism, or the Church. None whatsoever. The Church's job is to go and make disciples, but if God elects them, then the disciples are already made, and the task of the Great Commission is finished, especially if it is impossible for the elect to fail to persevere. The Scripture, likewise, is useless, because it it is impossible for the Saints to fail to persevere, then they don't need a guidebook to tell them how to live. By means of the pagan doctrine of Hellenistic Fatalism, the most blessed and glorious gifts God gave us are meaningless trifles.
 
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OutOfPlace_Christian

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I am not arguing against the fact God allows us to make choices. He does. What I am saying is sometimes God heavily influences those choices. I mean sometimes I would rather CHOOSE to obey my parents (even if I don't want to all the time) then get a beating or worse punishment obviously out of fear especially after using a sibling as an example of what I could get (since it is has been said that God treated Jonah like a child I used this example :D). That is what I am saying. Jonah wasn't exactly ecstatic about any of it in the first place but knowing you can't run away from God might as well CHOOSE to give in and choose life.
 
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mikpat

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Angels cannot be proved but can be believed to exist, i.e we can say that such a group can exist with a high degree of probability, can be inferred.

Angels were created by God to serve Him and to be used as messengers to mankind.
Angels were probably created during the "six days" of creation.

Faith comes first and when we have faith in some idea then we can begin to reason it out….if we try to reason something first and find it true, supposedly, then there is no need for faith.
 
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Jipsah

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Jonah, of his own will, owned up to what he had done and accepted the consequences. Jonah probably expected the Lord to end his life then and there. God did not rewire Jonah against his will. He did not alter the thought process Jonah had by opening up the line of Jonah code and hacking him into a more obedient servant.
Ah, I see. So if after being beaten within an inch of his life by Sal the Enforcer, Joey the Chump realizes the error of his ways and promises to pay every penny he owes by Thursday, as long as Sal didn't rewire Joey or alter Joey's source code, then the decision to pay his losses plus accumulated vig was purely a Free Will decision on Joey's part, and no coercion involved at all.

Right.

Jonah eventually did the right thing of his own free will.
Aided by having suffered incredibly violence, but that doesn't obtain, because there's a doctrine at risk here if you start calling things by their right names. <Laugh>

The natural man is capable of choosing not to sin, because the Gentiles do BY NATURE avoid sin.
Really? Care to share some examples? Next person I see who chooses not to sin, and then doesn't sin, will make a grand total of one. And if we're all able to simply will ourselves not to sin (or lose weight, or quit drinking, or give up heroin) why do we need a Savior? We just need motivational posters.

This is completely and utterly impossible if the Free Will of man is not truly free.
You haven't given me an example of those sinless gentiles yet, so I'm not ready to give much (OK, any) creedence to your claim.

These are people who have never been taught the law of God that are following the law
Sorry, knowing the Law isn't at all the same as following it. And you're still gonna have to show me this paragon you've found who not only knows the Law, but keeps it, of His own Free Will.

If Free will does not exist. If God creates men to be either reprobate or elect
Red Herring. Free Will certainly exists, we prove it every time we sin. Our Will is corrupt, like the rest of us, and thus we sin constantly.

then there is absolutely no purpose to Scripture, evangelism, or the Church. None whatsoever.
You have a very, shall we say, interesting view of what the Body of Christ is about, or Scripture and evangelism. You really think it's salesmanship that get's people saved? And that the Church is only about altar calls and Sinner's Prayers? But then. maybe it is all about marketing, and all we have to do is decide to be sinless. So why, then, did God have to die? Was that just a publicity stunt?

By means of the pagan doctrine of Hellenistic Fatalism, the most blessed and glorious gifts God gave us are meaningless trifles.
But by your lights, God doesn't need to give anything, all we have to do is Will it so. Matter of fact, as I understand it in your economy, God is incapable of intervening to affect anyone's decision, as that would tread on their Free Will. Thus the "Poor God, He can't...". lunacy. (Which makes me wonder, do y'all ever pray for God for save someone, or is that just too coercive?)

Nah, nothing Hellenistic, or Fatalistic for that matter, about believing that if anyone is saved, it is God who does the saving. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." The old Saint must have forgotten to mention the "and our Free Will" part.
 
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Jipsah

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Your inexplicable post, #60, at 10:58 yesterday.
If you read Jonah, why did you post your question in post #60 ?
Sorry, OM, I still don't know what you're talking about. But have a nice evening!
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Sorry, OM, I still don't know what you're talking about. But have a nice evening!
Did you even read your own question ? Your own post ?
It didn't make sense when you posted it,
and it still doesn't make sense now - at least it is not understood -
thus,
I questioned you with the same question you asked me - DID you read JONAH ?
(apparently not)
So I don't know WHY you asked me if I had the same book of Jonah as you do,
if you have not read it even ?

Here is your post:>>> you quoted me (in blue). your post is in red:
yeshuaslavejeff said:

I don't think Jonah was afraid.
He repented, willingly, and gave praise and honor to Yhwh.

Did you read the same book of Jonah that I did?


Jipsah, Yesterday at 10:58 PM Report

#60 Like + Quote Reply

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Geralt

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Angels cannot be proved but can be believed to exist, i.e we can say that such a group can exist with a high degree of probability, can be inferred.

Angels were created by God to serve Him and to be used as messengers to mankind.
Angels were probably created during the "six days" of creation.

Faith comes first and when we have faith in some idea then we can begin to reason it out….if we try to reason something first and find it true, supposedly, then there is no need for faith.

we DONT have 'faith in ideas', this is ridiculous.

what you probably mean is that we have faith in God and Christ who talked about such things in Holy Writ which has authority over us and therefore we believe it to be true.
 
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Anna the Seeker

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I don't think I ever really lost my faith. But I did go through philosophical phase in thinking on why God must exist. In the end it's actually very simple to prove. It's proven through the philosophy of metaphysics, rather than the worldly tool of human science which is meant to measure our elements and our energy and explain everything through themselves. That's why souls or spirits cannot be proved by human science, and the only point they can come across each other is when they don't understand each other. They are like two different languages that aren't easily translated. But both of them are very real.

Yet they are kind of interested in what the other is doing. Like Mulder and Scully.

I have some personal experiences of angels (not visible) and how God has the ability to rearrange anything in the universe to help his Christians. I dare say that He (or His angels) have even saved my life. Some unbelievably good things have happened to me and my close ones, just what we needed, and I realized that we must have been somehow... watched?

I thanked God in prayer afterwards.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Freewill and predestination is a false dichotomy brought about by neo-platonic ideas popular at the time of the reformation. Both freewill and predestination are presented in harmony in scripture, there's no need to dissect a harmony.
 
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sculleywr

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Before I go further, if you do not refrain from splitting my statements up to individual sentences, I will refrain from allowing what I deem to be useless posts that intentionally seek to take my statements out of context. If you do not refrain from removing Scriptures from my posts, then I will refrain from discussing Scripture with someone who does not believe Scripture to be of any meaning or importance. Are we clear?

Ah, I see. So if after being beaten within an inch of his life by Sal the Enforcer, Joey the Chump realizes the error of his ways and promises to pay every penny he owes by Thursday, as long as Sal didn't rewire Joey or alter Joey's source code, then the decision to pay his losses plus accumulated vig was purely a Free Will decision on Joey's part, and no coercion involved at all.

Right.

There are PLENTY of times people have refused God's will even after extreme punishment by Him. Even Balaam attempted AGAIN to curse Israel after his initial failure. There are also plenty of times that people refuse to play along with torture, as there has NEVER been a time wherein torture has yielded information on terrorism, as evidenced by the statements of the CIA, whose head still claims that torture is useful, which is quite...ironic.

Really? Care to share some examples? Next person I see who chooses not to sin, and then doesn't sin, will make a grand total of one. And if we're all able to simply will ourselves not to sin (or lose weight, or quit drinking, or give up heroin) why do we need a Savior? We just need motivational posters.

Well, Scripture says they exist. Do you dare to say Scriptures lie when Scriptures say that Gentiles without the law do what is contained within the law? These are people who, at least part of the time, choose not to sin. And you can't achieve salvation by mere lack of sin. Remember what Christ says, eternal life is not merely living forever, life eternal is to know God and His Son. One cannot know God and His Son only by avoiding sin. One must have a relationship with Him to gain salvation. Sin is merely that which originally severed our relationship, and is the reason for which Christ came to reconcile that relationship and make it possible once more for man to enter a relationship with God through Christ. This is why, even though many Orthodox believe Mary to have been sinless (I myself being on the fence as it really isn't of salvific importance, except for this explanation), she still needed a Savior, as she herself stated in the Magnificat, as seen in Scripture after her initial meeting with Elizabeth.

You haven't given me an example of those sinless gentiles yet, so I'm not ready to give much (OK, any) creedence (sic) to your claim.

I didn't say sinless. I said that they chose not to sin. I did not say they ALWAYS chose not to sin. But since you say that Free Will is ONLY useful for making the choice to sin, the existence of Scripture saying that, at least in some instances, men use their free will to avoid sin even without knowing the law, is enough to completely dismantle your absolute assertion that free will is ONLY evidenced by sin. The fact that God orders us to CHOOSE, and even before the regeneration of the Cross, men in Scripture chose to follow the Lord (as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord), is evidence ALSO of free will. God doesn't say things which are useless. If we cannot choose to follow God when God tells us to follow Him, then His telling us to follow Him is useless

Sorry, knowing the Law isn't at all the same as following it. And you're still gonna have to show me this paragon you've found who not only knows the Law, but keeps it, of His own Free Will.

The reason we know they know the law in their hearts is BECAUSE they follow it. This is why it says "they who do not have the law, but DO THAT WHICH IS CONTAINED IN THE LAW". Scripture says they do it, Scripture says they exist. Therefore either scripture is right, and you are wrong, or you are right and Scripture is wrong. I choose to believe the former, because Scripture trumps Fatalistic Hellenism every time. (yes, I will continue to call your belief by its original form of Fatalistic Hellenism, because that is what the doctrine of Predestination is)

Red Herring. Free Will certainly exists, we prove it every time we sin. Our Will is corrupt, like the rest of us, and thus we sin constantly.

Free Will goes both ways. Free will exists ONLY if choice to do good OR evil exists. Did Adam eat of the tree of the knowledge of good? Or the knowledge of good and evil. If a man knows something, then he can do it. Good is, essentially, not difficult to do, in fact. It is easy to feed the hungry. It is easy to clothe the naked. It is easy to give drink to the thirsty. There isn't a single command in Scripture which is impossible for the man to do. And a number of examples can be found of men who are certainly not Christians following any number of them. Remember, I'm not making an absolute argument as you are. I am making an argument that free will can be used in both directions, such that there are serial murderers who also give food to the hungry, and pathological liars who also visit people in the nursing home. Men are anachronistic beings with no shortage of contradictions and flaws, but also no shortage of beautiful acts of strength and love, all existing in each person individually. None is perfectly perfect, but none is completely depraved, as Calvin would argue, for if they are completely depraved, then all actions of salvation, even those of an infinite God, would not be able to bring salvation to a person who was infinitely depraved, because no infinite can be greater than any other infinite.

You have a very, shall we say, interesting view of what the Body of Christ is about, or Scripture and evangelism. You really think it's salesmanship that get's people saved? And that the Church is only about altar calls and Sinner's Prayers? But then. maybe it is all about marketing, and all we have to do is decide to be sinless. So why, then, did God have to die? Was that just a publicity stunt?

No, evangelism is about getting a person to make a choice. My church doesn't have altar calls or sinner's prayers (unless you count praying through Psalm 51. Christ came and died to come to where we were, not just earth, but to the grave, to sheol (which is not hell, because sheol does not mean hell). This is why some of the earliest songs about Christ's Resurrection are "Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the grave bestowing life". Our souls, before Christ, existed in the grave, and Christ went down to the grave to rescue our souls and to pull them out of the grave and return them to us. This is what regeneration is. And on that day, EVERY soul was returned to the man from whence it came, both back in time and forward. And through His Death, what Ignatius of Antioch would call "The Medicine of Immortality" was given to all mankind, if they will choose to drink it.

The reason He came to earth was salvation. The reason He died was to give us immortality, and the reason He came back to life was to regenerate ALL of mankind. Notice here that salvation is not starting in the Crucifixion, but in the very Incarnation. "God became man, so that we might become like God" (St. Cyprian of Carthage).

But by your lights, God doesn't need to give anything, all we have to do is Will it so. Matter of fact, as I understand it in your economy, God is incapable of intervening to affect anyone's decision, as that would tread on their Free Will. Thus the "Poor God, He can't...". lunacy. (Which makes me wonder, do y'all ever pray for God for save someone, or is that just too coercive?)

If eternal life were limited to simple freedom from sin, then you would be right, but a person will never be saved by simply being perfect and sinless, because he lacks something that saves: oneness with God. And oneness with God is impossible without the God Who became one with man (as stated in the Creed of Chalcedon, that Christ is of one essence with God according to the divine nature, and of one essence with man according to the human nature).

Nah, nothing Hellenistic, or Fatalistic for that matter, about believing that if anyone is saved, it is God who does the saving. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." The old Saint must have forgotten to mention the "and our Free Will" part.
No. What is hellenistic Fatalism is the belief that man is FATED (Predestined) to be good or evil. That is pure, unadulterated, pagan Fatalism according to textbook definition. Just because you replace the words "good" and "evil" with "elect" and "reprobate" does not change what you are teaching. Replacement of terms is not alteration of teaching.
 
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mikpat

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Geralt,

Idea - is something that exists in the mind, a conviction, an opinion, a trust in something etc.

Faith - a belief, beliefs (an idea) that is not based on proof. The Trinity is an idea, a conviction that people believe in, have faith in but is impossible to prove it, like angels. Is God Infinite, yes we have faith that, that attribute is part of the nature of God. Can't prove it but most Christians have faith in such an attribute.

The entire Nicene Creed is loaded with ideas, beliefs, that cannot be proved but it is firmly believed, faith, by millions of Christians, especially Catholics…

Proof—-usually follows the senses——evidence having probative weight, an arithmetical operation, math, logic,
 
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mikpat

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God created everything that exists, the universe, animal world, plant life and finally mankind. If God chooses to interfere with man's free will via giving out his graces fine———it's His choice. Everything in existence depends on God's omnipotence, His support…….if He chooses to withdraw his support———-well I guess its poof into nothingness….
Now these ideas are based on faith, I cannot prove them but I have faith that such a belief is true.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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A great many people lived and died before Christ was ever born.

A great many people lived and died in the early centuries after Christ before the big missionary efforts achieved global scope.

A great many people around the world have lived and died in non-Christian religious communities even to this day either without ever hearing about Christ, or at the most hearing obscure and distant names or concepts that wouldn't give them any sort of reasonable chance of making a decision. And even now, in such a connected world, there are many children/people who are born and grow up and rather closed communities where all they know is the ways of their people.

The whole Yes/No decision concept is largely limited to Western world experiences.

yup. well said.
 
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