Christianity and free will

[Anna the Seeker]

Why do I believe that free will is part of our lives, and part of Christianity?

To me the evidence is that both good and evil exists. Instead of us being God's empty vessels - His puppets - He gave us true souls and true free will. To me it looks like He valued free will more, but all the same He knew the price of free will as well.

So as Christians we are free... to choose God. And as non-Christians, something else. But that we chose God in our free will means that the choice will have significantly more value than just saying so as a slave of a master.

In my experience, this is also one of the major differences between Christianity and Islam. While God waits for the Christian "prodigal son" to finally return home, Muslims see as their strict duty to serve Allah.

Christianity is bittersweet that way. But so is life.

 

[Noxot]

to even be conscious you must have a will otherwise you would just be a mindless robotic program. I have recently seen it this way and it seems good to me:

 

[Anna the Seeker]

It is good way to see it...

Anyway, I forgot to add one thing there. The devil likes to toy with the idea that free will comes from himself, just because God has some rules of decency which are not too much to ask... and so devil's followers buy that freedom equals rebellion. But the truth is that free will comes from no one else but God. Even devil's own.

Rebellion is closer to chaos than freedom anyway as far as I'm concerned.

But no surprises there. The devil likes to play God, and so he will try to pretend that he has even that ability of His.

 

[Greg J.]

I am comforted that I have true free will because God will judge me for what I have chosen to do. He doesn't judge people for things they haven't done.

Scripture tells us that without God's commands, we wouldn't know right from wrong, but doing wrong would still cause the effects of sin to come upon us. God's commands are a huge blessing. On top of that, when one obeys God, then God is responsible for the results, not the person.

 

[Noxot]

chaos is irrational freedom. the Holy Spirit enlightens our darkened freedom and then we have a better freedom to love God with. God is true freedom. evil is an inferior way to exist which is why God hates it. only God is good and so it is not good that man be separated from him. so man only finds his true image by being with God. God wants us to have freedom because in order to love you must have freedom. and so to have freedom is to be made in the image of God.

freedom gives us the possibility to become slaves but if we had no other choice besides God then it would be like we are compelled to follow and believe God, which is not good. that is one reason why God stays so hidden from us a lot of the times in this world, because he does not want to force us at all to love him. when he does reveal himself it in a way takes away our freedom, because he is so good. but we must freely become Gods child and so even if God does reveal himself to us, he still expects us to be free and to run to him and depend on him.

and so even if we are very close to God we can still mess up because we are free even from God, but when we are perfect we shall always pick God. but even if we do mess up the Lord teaches us and loves us the same always and he corrects us and he gives us more chances to pick him.

so our soul is like this and God is wisdom and love and he freely gives himself to us as much as we want. we become like him as much as we become one with him but there is no end to this because there is no end to God and our true image and self is rooted in God himself!:

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Why do I believe that free will is part of our lives, and part of Christianity?

To me the evidence is that both good and evil exists. Instead of us being God's empty vessels - His puppets - He gave us true souls and true free will. To me it looks like He valued free will more, but all the same He knew the price of free will as well.

So as Christians we are free... to choose God. And as non-Christians, something else. But that we chose God in our free will means that the choice will have significantly more value than just saying so as a slave of a master.

In my experience, this is also one of the major differences between Christianity and Islam. While God waits for the Christian "prodigal son" to finally return home, Muslims see as their strict duty to serve Allah.

Christianity is bittersweet that way. But so is life.

So the person who used their free will to choose God, and the other who used their free will to reject God, what's the difference between them? Is the one who chose God somehow a better person than the one who rejected God? How did the one who chose God overcome the hardness of his own heart, and his own love of darkness, to come to a love of God? And why didn't the one who rejected God do the same things? Is one more righteous than the other, or are we all born into sin?

 

[HighwayMan]

It is good way to see it...

Anyway, I forgot to add one thing there. The devil likes to toy with the idea that free will comes from himself, just because God has some rules of decency which are not too much to ask... and so devil's followers buy that freedom equals rebellion. But the truth is that free will comes from no one else but God. Even devil's own.

Rebellion is closer to chaos than freedom anyway as far as I'm concerned.

But no surprises there. The devil likes to play God, and so he will try to pretend that he has even that ability of His.

There has to be a reason for why someone would choose something while another person something else entirely, however. Even the devil. God created everything, so as part of free will, he must have created the possibility to choose wrongly. So why was it Lucifer, and not any of the other angels that chose to disobey God? Was it random chance? Was it something in his past the Bible does not mention? Is it some spark that God planted in him, but not the others? (Thought that would defeat the purpose of free will).

 

[Job8]

So the person who used their free will to choose God, and the other who used their free will to reject God, what's the difference between them?

Some love darkness and evil more than light. That's the difference. And that's what the Bible says.

How did the one who chose God overcome the hardness of his own heart, and his own love of darkness, to come to a love of God?

The one who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ receives the Holy Spirit, who gives him a new heart and a new spirit through the New Birth.

And why didn't the one who rejected God do the same things?

That' where free will comes in. Some choose Christ. Others reject Christ.

Is one more righteous than the other, or are we all born into sin?

All are born into sin, but the one who believes is justified -- declared righteous.

 

[HighwayMan]

That' where free will comes in. Some choose Christ. Others reject Christ.

A spectacularly small percentage of the human population throughout history has had such a yes or no choice, however.

 

[tturt]

How has only a small percentage had a choice? Even someone in prison makes that choice. Perhaps I don't understand the intent of the above post.

 

[HighwayMan]

How has only a small percentage had a choice? Even someone in prison makes that choice. Perhaps I don't understand the intent of the above post.

A great many people lived and died before Christ was ever born.

A great many people lived and died in the early centuries after Christ before the big missionary efforts achieved global scope.

A great many people around the world have lived and died in non-Christian religious communities even to this day either without ever hearing about Christ, or at the most hearing obscure and distant names or concepts that wouldn't give them any sort of reasonable chance of making a decision. And even now, in such a connected world, there are many children/people who are born and grow up and rather closed communities where all they know is the ways of their people.

The whole Yes/No decision concept is largely limited to Western world experiences.

 

[tturt]

Yeshua's sacrifice and resurrection covered individuals based on their hearts (such as I Chron 28:9, Psa 32) from the foundation of the world and will through the end imo. All of those before Yeshua's time on earth had spirits, too. Abraham, Moses, John the Baptist, etc. will be/are in heaven. Yes, spreading the gospel is vital and we do need to do our part but don't think Yahweh leaves that important decision by others left entirely up to us.

 

[graceandpeace]

This is a tough topic.

I think we do, in some sense, have "free will." How much is our supposed freedom impaired? I think it could be debated.

Ultimately though, for a relationship to be honest or meaningful, there has to be some sort of vulnerability with the persons involved. I think God chose to be vulnerable with us.

 

[Goatee]

We do have free will.

We start out at a crossroads. We can choose which way to go. Choose God or not. Sometimes choosing God will be a cross bearing journey! But, what a beautiful journey! To suffer for God is the ultimate journey.

 

[Jipsah]

I think we do, in some sense, have "free will."

Sure, we prove it every time we sin. The question is whether our Free Will is the deciding factor in whether we're saved or not. If Free Will isn't enough to get people to lose weight or quit smoking cigarettes, then I can't grant it the ultimate power that some folks believe it has as the deciding factor in who receives eternal life and who gets zapped. The old "Poor God, there's just nothing He can do, it's totally in our hands" schtick is nauseating to me. What kind of God do these people envision?

How much is our supposed freedom impaired?

A lot, IMO. St. Paul said, "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."

I ain't seeing much Free Will there.

 

[The Hammer of Witches]

Why do I believe that free will is part of our lives, and part of Christianity?

To me the evidence is that both good and evil exists. Instead of us being God's empty vessels - His puppets - He gave us true souls and true free will. To me it looks like He valued free will more, but all the same He knew the price of free will as well.

So as Christians we are free... to choose God. And as non-Christians, something else. But that we chose God in our free will means that the choice will have significantly more value than just saying so as a slave of a master.

In my experience, this is also one of the major differences between Christianity and Islam. While God waits for the Christian "prodigal son" to finally return home, Muslims see as their strict duty to serve Allah.

Christianity is bittersweet that way. But so is life.

We all have free will, but God already knows our choices before we make them.

 

[Albion]

So as Christians we are free... to choose God. And as non-Christians, something else. But that we chose God in our free will means that the choice will have significantly more value than just saying so as a slave of a master.

.

How can anyone freely choose something that he does not know or understand? Let's say that there is a being living on some planet that we cannot travel to...and he's quite unlike ourselves. We do not know anything about him, of course, because he's never been seen and there's no evidence that he even exists, none that we have access to anyway. How then can we choose to be a devotee of that being?

 

[Goatee]

How can anyone freely choose something that he does not know or understand? Let's say that there is a being living on some planet that we cannot travel to...and he's quite unlike ourselves. We do not know anything about him, of course, because he's never been seen and there's no evidence that he even exists, none that we have access to anyway. How then can we choose to be a devotee of that being?

Through faith

 

[RDKirk]

Sure, we prove it every time we sin. The question is whether our Free Will is the deciding factor in whether we're saved or not. If Free Will isn't enough to get people to lose weight or quit smoking cigarettes, then I can't grant it the ultimate power that some folks believe it has as the deciding factor in who receives eternal life and who gets zapped. The old "Poor God, there's just nothing He can do, it's totally in our hands" schtick is nauseating to me. What kind of God do these people envision?

A lot, IMO. St. Paul said, "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."

I ain't seeing much Free Will there.

I think I'm in agreement. Paul denies "free will" in the sense that modern philosophers define the term. In Paul's terms, there is not free will, there is only a choice of being the slave to one master or the other, and choice of masters is only made possible by the grace of God. A choice of masters is nobody's definition of "free will."

 

[RDKirk]

How can anyone freely choose something that he does not know or understand? Let's say that there is a being living on some planet that we cannot travel to...and he's quite unlike ourselves. We do not know anything about him, of course, because he's never been seen and there's no evidence that he even exists, none that we have access to anyway. How then can we choose to be a devotee of that being?

But there is sufficient evidence in creation of God's existence and character--see Psalm 19.

Further, God expects the evidence of creation to be fully persuasive of at least His existence and His character--see Romans 1. In fact, with regard to the basic acceptance of God's existence and character, God has no other argument. To those who refuse to accept God's argument in creation, God sends a powerful delusion...He's finished with them. This particular response of God--sending a delusion to those who don't want the truth--is exemplified in 2 Chronicles 18 and 1Kings 22, where God sent a "lying spirit" to Ahab, who was determined not to hear anything from God.