Christianity and free will

RDKirk

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And thus one, on that evidence and of their own Free Will, becomes a Muslim. Wonderful.

Or a Hindu or a number of things.

But it was to precisely such persons Paul was speaking to in Athens.

For that kind of person, the responsibility of the evangelist is to not screw up the gospel message. Our biggest evangelistic problem is that we so frequently screw up the gospel.

As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you." -- Romans 12
 
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sculleywr

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Albion is correct. understanding precedes faith, and not the other way around.

we have faith in God, simply because we understand and acknowledge who God is.

contrary to what you seem to suggest, Faith is NOT a blind leap in the dark.

and that is the very reason for mission, so that people may hear and understand-> and then they decide for or reject christ.
And who here will raise their hand to say that they understand the Trinity or the Hypostatic Union of Christ?

I'm waiting.

I have faith that they are true. It does not mean I understand it.
 
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ChristsSoldier115

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And who here will raise their hand to say that they understand the Trinity or the Hypostatic Union of Christ?

I'm waiting.

I have faith that they are true. It does not mean I understand it.
For real, the trinity is hard to explain without that handy dandy pic somebody created. I believe it was Augstine who said that the word "persons" didn't accurately describe the personhood of the trinity, because he does not mean it in the individualistic sense. which just makes it even harder to get. lol
 
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RDKirk

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For real, the trinity is hard to explain without that handy dandy pic somebody created. I believe it was Augstine who said that the word "persons" didn't accurately describe the personhood of the trinity, because he does not mean it in the individualistic sense. which just makes it even harder to get. lol

And Athenagoras pleading before the two Caesars in 140 AD couldn't tell them exactly what "only begotten son of God" meant, only that it didn't mean what it sounded like it meant.
 
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Geralt

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And who here will raise their hand to say that they understand the Trinity or the Hypostatic Union of Christ?

I'm waiting.

I have faith that they are true. It does not mean I understand it.

Understanding does not necessarily result in faith.
But faith is based on understanding of 'whom', NOT of 'what'.

To say you have faith in the Trinity or the Hypostatic Union of Christ is simply suggesting you have faith in ideas.
This is not faith, but simply taking your chances on abstracts and ideas.

But not to divert from the thread, what Paul was writing was:

Rom 3:10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.


obviously no one seeks God, because in reality no one seeks what they do not understand.
they are seeking, yes, totally free to seek what they want but still missing the mark.

their search is limited or bounded by their understanding. much like a fish in a bowl freely swimming within his confines- total freedom!. unable to walk or even understand what it means, it has no understanding of movement beyond his bowl of freedom.

and this is where the gospel comes
in, that when the Holy Spirit gives the rebirth therein comes also understanding, and with understanding we respond in faith.

you cannot force faith on people whose reality is confined within their worldview, much like the apostles fearing for their lives during the storm in the boat with christ. true they understand that jesus can heal the sick, but never 'thought' he can also command the forces of nature. (Lk 8:22-25) this is totally beyond their reality, beyond their fish bowl. they have no understanding and therefore cannot react in faith.
 
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OutOfPlace_Christian

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But what He didn't do was tie strings to Jonah and make Jonah do what He wanted without any choice in the matter.
The guy was swallowed by a huge fish. It is in some way still MAKING Jonah do what He wanted to do showing Him that He can't run away and go with his original choice. Jonah ended up giving in out of fear. Let's not ignore the fact that God commanded that "big fish" to do that and not pretend that Jonah isn't human and ended up giving in out of fear.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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The guy was swallowed by a huge fish. It is in some way still MAKING Jonah do what He wanted to do showing Him that He can't run away and go with his original choice. Jonah ended up giving in out of fear. Let's not ignore the fact that God commanded that "big fish" to do that and not pretend that Jonah isn't human and ended up giving in out of fear.
I don't think Jonah was afraid.
He repented, willingly, and gave praise and honor to Yhwh.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Our biggest evangelistic problem is that we so frequently screw up the gospel.
Subject to clarification, yes.
Natives in other countries have often ignored missionaries for years, even decades.
Then, one day, a new missionary arrives and tells them the truth,
and in a day or in a week or in a month, many of the natives believe in Jesus, repent and are immersed in His Name, and LIVE as faithful followers of Jesus.
When asked why they did not believe or repent or listen to the previous missionaries for many years, they replied "they said one thing, but lived another - their lives did not match up with what they said".

And who here will raise their hand to say that they understand the Trinity or the Hypostatic Union of Christ?
I'm waiting.
I have faith that they are true. It does not mean I understand it.
Well, I was going to say "easy", but on second thought,
better wait and see if you can re-phrase the question.
Or maybe WHY you have faith in something - WHO is it you trust about something ?
 
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OutOfPlace_Christian

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I don't think Jonah was afraid.
He repented, willingly, and gave praise and honor to Yhwh.
He was in distress though and cried out to God. Then he remembered who he was dealing with. God Almighty. Easier to obey and be saved than to continue to make the choice to run away.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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He was in distress though and cried out to God. Then he remembered who he was dealing with. God Almighty. Easier to obey and be saved than to continue to make the choice to run away.
Yes,
or, REALLY?
Then
why do MOST PEOPLE continue to make the choice to run away TODAY ? (right up to the end and they die without ever repenting !)
 
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ChristsSoldier115

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Perhaps sinful man's pride is what weighs on this free will thing. We like to believe that we choose God, and God doesn't choose us, because we love to be sure we are in control of our own destiny or at least convince ourselves we control something. Sort of a subtle theological tower of babel maybe? I might be stretching that a bit
 
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OutOfPlace_Christian

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Is God sending big fish to swallow them up while they are still alive? I'm not saying God isn't just as active today as he was back then but if God did all those things today as well...people would probably change their minds and not wait until death to finally see what the consequences are to their actions (without repenting). :/ The fear of God being lost is what gives some people the guts to continue running away.
 
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OutOfPlace_Christian

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Perhaps sinful man's pride is what weighs on this free will thing. We like to believe that we choose God, and God doesn't choose us, because we love to be sure we are in control of our own destiny or at least convince ourselves we control something. Sort of a subtle theological tower of babel maybe? I might be stretching that a bit
Interesting point of view I must say
 
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bling

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Free will only exists when you don't know the outcome.

So, then, the question becomes not a matter of "free will", but rather "what will", i.e. what will I do? But even that assumes that there is time for such a course of action - none of which actually works in the timeless realm of God. No, in the case of God, not having time to "will", there is no "free will" or "what will", but rather "I am."

Time, then, is the key component to "will"...which, of course, is simply created and passing away. All of which exists as an aside to the greater timeless reality of God: Time in a bottle, so to speak...or in this case, "will" in a bottle. None of which, of course, is free - but has been bought with a price.

Conclusion: If we have any part with God - with "I am" that is...then we "are" who we are, and we "will" be who we will be...and yet seem to be "free" to at least put feet to that will, and walk in it. :)

As soon as you talk about in the future for God, you are placing God in man’s time frame.

Christians talk about: “God being outside of time”, which is not beyond the thinking of the atheist or agnostic since:

For the last 100 years people have been trying to disprove “The Theory of Relativity” and yet nothing has disagreed with the theory and all experiments have supported relativity. If time is relative how relative would time be for God, who possible even created “time”?

If God is not outside of time and there is an infinite amount of time before man is created, then man has not been created, since an infinite amount of time has not finished? (This suggests God would be outside of time.)

There has also been hypothesizes with nothing being shown yet that if time is “warped”, there could be possible “wormholes” or something like a wormhole going between two different times.

God could have his own sequencing of events, but God would not be limited by human time.

It is difficult to think about God being “outside of our time” with no before or after for God, but this subject requires us to think.

It should not be hard for you to imagine time being relative and warped since that is what science has been showing, so one way God could “know” everything is by God at the end of man’s time sending back the whole history of man (which includes all the free will choices man made [it is historic at that point]) to Himself at the beginning of time, so the God at the beginning of man’s time knows all man’s free will choices throughout time as purely historical events and not even God can change history.

If God is outside of time He can know all there is to know, but that does not mean God knows that which cannot be known. As this would relate to man: At the same instant, God decides to make a human, for God; that being was born lived made some very limited sovereign free will choices, died and went to in heaven or hell (it is all history for God). If God does not decide to make a being (there is an infinite number of these) then God does not know what this non-ever to exist being did, since it did not do anything.

So how does God know for certainty what man will do in the future and still allow man to make free will choices; seems to be a dilemma, since the “future” is set by God knowing the future? The “future” is only “future” as far as man is concerned, since the future is set by being pure “history” as far as God is concerned. God is not forcing or setting man’s “future” free will choices, but it is man himself setting the man’s future, by the free will choices man “did make” in the future (which is history for God).

Try playing God for a minute: If you got information sent back to you in a wormhole from the future that told you perfectly the free will choice a person will make in China one hour from now and you had no way of contacting that person in the next hour, would that mean they did not make a free will choice because you perfectly knew their choice ahead of time?

God operates in a similar fashion, but He could contact the person, but since He always does the best thing there is to do; there is no changing what He does/did.
 
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bling

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Perhaps sinful man's pride is what weighs on this free will thing. We like to believe that we choose God, and God doesn't choose us, because we love to be sure we are in control of our own destiny or at least convince ourselves we control something. Sort of a subtle theological tower of babel maybe? I might be stretching that a bit

If pride is the issue than man likes to blame someone else for his poor state like: Adam & Eve, Satan, a sinful world, bad luck, God, or bad parents. As far as taking pride in choosing God, there is no “pride” in trusting in the existence of a Benevolent Creator, since the lowliest mature adult on earth can certainly and easily “trust” (show faith) in the existence of a benevolent Creator. You could actually take “pride” in just the opposite: Not “trusting” in a benevolent Creator, but trusting in man’s ability/wisdom/science to explain it all at least sometime in the future.

Trusting in a benevolent Creator is actually a humbling experience and maybe the choice of last resort.
 
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sculleywr

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The guy was swallowed by a huge fish. It is in some way still MAKING Jonah do what He wanted to do showing Him that He can't run away and go with his original choice. Jonah ended up giving in out of fear. Let's not ignore the fact that God commanded that "big fish" to do that and not pretend that Jonah isn't human and ended up giving in out of fear.
And let's not forget that Jonah also volunteered himself to be thrown into the sea in the story, admitting to his peers that it was he who was the cause of the storm, when he could have chosen not to say anything.
 
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ScottA

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As soon as you talk about in the future for God, you are placing God in man’s time frame.

Christians talk about: “God being outside of time”, which is not beyond the thinking of the atheist or agnostic since:

For the last 100 years people have been trying to disprove “The Theory of Relativity” and yet nothing has disagreed with the theory and all experiments have supported relativity. If time is relative how relative would time be for God, who possible even created “time”?

If God is not outside of time and there is an infinite amount of time before man is created, then man has not been created, since an infinite amount of time has not finished? (This suggests God would be outside of time.)

There has also been hypothesizes with nothing being shown yet that if time is “warped”, there could be possible “wormholes” or something like a wormhole going between two different times.

God could have his own sequencing of events, but God would not be limited by human time.

It is difficult to think about God being “outside of our time” with no before or after for God, but this subject requires us to think.

It should not be hard for you to imagine time being relative and warped since that is what science has been showing, so one way God could “know” everything is by God at the end of man’s time sending back the whole history of man (which includes all the free will choices man made [it is historic at that point]) to Himself at the beginning of time, so the God at the beginning of man’s time knows all man’s free will choices throughout time as purely historical events and not even God can change history.

If God is outside of time He can know all there is to know, but that does not mean God knows that which cannot be known. As this would relate to man: At the same instant, God decides to make a human, for God; that being was born lived made some very limited sovereign free will choices, died and went to in heaven or hell (it is all history for God). If God does not decide to make a being (there is an infinite number of these) then God does not know what this non-ever to exist being did, since it did not do anything.

So how does God know for certainty what man will do in the future and still allow man to make free will choices; seems to be a dilemma, since the “future” is set by God knowing the future? The “future” is only “future” as far as man is concerned, since the future is set by being pure “history” as far as God is concerned. God is not forcing or setting man’s “future” free will choices, but it is man himself setting the man’s future, by the free will choices man “did make” in the future (which is history for God).

Try playing God for a minute: If you got information sent back to you in a wormhole from the future that told you perfectly the free will choice a person will make in China one hour from now and you had no way of contacting that person in the next hour, would that mean they did not make a free will choice because you perfectly knew their choice ahead of time?

God operates in a similar fashion, but He could contact the person, but since He always does the best thing there is to do; there is no changing what He does/did.
The difficult truth is...time does not actually exist, but is simply the incremental value of a truth that resides timelessly with God.
 
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98cwitr

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The difficult truth is...time does not actually exist, but is simply the incremental value of a truth that resides timelessly with God.

And here I thought it was just a unit of measuring passing through the 3rd dimension ;)
 
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