An Open Invite To Talk About The Law And Grace

[Alithis]

This is the problem. You don't think faith and love are good enough so you have to add to it. Biblical faith and love do not commit sin. Christians that sin give in to unbelief and doubt which is the real transgression of the law.

absolutely no one said that or meant it or even implied they think faith in christ jesus is not enough,
if a tree is an orange tree and it produces oranges..does that fruit make the tree more an orange tree then it was before...? that would be silly.
yet it does not cease to do that which it is created to do just because it is confident of its being.

 

[rick357]

absolutely no one said that or meant it or even implied they think faith in christ jesus is not enough,
if a tree is an orange tree and it produces oranges..does that fruit make the tree more an orange tree the it was before...? that would be silly.
yet it does not cease to do that which it is created to do just because it is confident of its being.

Good example....and here is a NT passage that says the same for consideration

*[[Mat 7:16-21]] RNKJV* %v 16% Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
%v 17% Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
%v 18% A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
%v 19% Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
%v 20% Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
%v 21% Not every one that saith unto me, My Master, My Master, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

 

[tturt]

-bear good fruit (Matthew 7:13-23)
-bear much fruit, without Him we can do nothing (John 15:5)
-be conformed to the image of His son (Rom 8:29)
-be doers of The Word (James 1:22)
-always try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord. (Eph 5:10)
-be followers of God (Ephesians 5:1-5) No fornication, covetousness, filthiness, foolish talking, etc.

There's a Judgment Day - What's in the Book of Life about our behavior as believers determines our inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

-For the Son of Man will come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done; (Matthew 16:27)
-the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (Rev 20:12).
-because you know that you will receive your inheritance from the Lord as the reward. Serve the Lord Christ (Col 3:24)
-Every man's work shall be made manifest: I Cor 3:13
-each one may be repaid according to what he has done while in the body, whether good or bad (II Cor 5:10);
ETC

 

[jbearnolimits]

This is the problem. You don't think faith and love are good enough so you have to add to it. Biblical faith and love do not commit sin. Christians that sin give in to unbelief and doubt which is the real transgression of the law.

This statement sounds like you are saying the same thing, but from a different angle. Are you saying that sin is a result of unbelief and doubt, and that breaking the law includes both unbelief AND sin?

Because the angle that others are working with is that sin is the transgression of the law, even if you believe in what Jesus has done.

I think this may help everyone:

James 2:17-24

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

[fozzy]

This statement sounds like you are saying the same thing, but from a different angle. Are you saying that sin is a result of unbelief and doubt, and that breaking the law includes both unbelief AND sin?

Because the angle that others are working with is that sin is the transgression of the law, even if you believe in what Jesus has done.

Is unbelief a sin?

 

[jbearnolimits]

Is unbelief a sin?

Awesome question! YES! It is! And therein is the issue. Without faith it is impossible to please God, and without works, faith is dead.

So then all kinds of sin comes from unbelief. But all kinds of good works and righteousness comes from belief (if it is mixed with living faith).

Unbelief does not produce the works that belief does. So then, who walks in unbelief? Is it the one who defies the wisdom of God and says the law is evil? Or is it the one who believes the law and runs to Jesus who is able to not only save from the wrath of the law, but also fulfill the law in us?

Make no mistake. God is not mocked. Whatever you sow you will reap. Whether it be seeds of unrighteousness which produces fruit of wickedness spoken of through the law, or seeds of faith which produces the fruits of the spirit including self control.

And even now our mortal bodies will reap death, but our spirit will reap life eternal. Because our life is hidden in Christ. Our life is not in our flesh, it is in the spirit.

 

[fozzy]

So unbelief is sin. Yeaa!!! we're getting somewhere now. So what law is being broken by unbelief? It's not the commandments because there is no 'thou shalt not unbelieve' so it has to be another law or the spiritual aspect of the law that is being broken. Our works have nothing to do with this at all. Do you perform works inside your heart where this is happening? Of course not. I will leave you with some excellent verses on this.

'...that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:' Phil. 3:8,9

'Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.' Heb. 3:12

 

[tturt]

posted:absolutely no one said that or meant it or even implied they think faith in christ jesus is not enough,

This is the main crux.

And as the result of His sacrifice and resurrection, saving grace and mercy then we want to follow Him, His wisdom, His guidance.

 

[rick357]

So unbelief is sin. Yeaa!!! we're getting somewhere now. So what law is being broken by unbelief? It's not the commandments because there is no 'thou shalt not unbelieve' so it has to be another law or the spiritual aspect of the law that is being broken. Our works have nothing to do with this at all. Do you perform works inside your heart where this is happening? Of course not. I will leave you with some excellent verses on this.

'...that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:' Phil. 3:8,9

'Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.' Heb. 3:12

So as you trust the HOLY Spirit to live through you which laws do you notice he has no concern for.

 

[jbearnolimits]

So unbelief is sin. Yeaa!!! we're getting somewhere now. So what law is being broken by unbelief? It's not the commandments because there is no 'thou shalt not unbelieve' so it has to be another law or the spiritual aspect of the law that is being broken. Our works have nothing to do with this at all. Do you perform works inside your heart where this is happening? Of course not.

We are indeed close. And those are excellent verses. I would like to take a moment to talk about this one quote though. Because it is very close to a perfect understanding of this.

The law being broken by unbelief...that is the key here. Jesus said that our righteousness had to exceed that of the religious leaders of that day. And they attempted to follow the law. Yet Jesus said they did not believe the law when He said that if they believed Moses they would believe Him.

So even those who tried to keep the law could not do so, because they were in unbelief about it. So because of their unbelief they broke it, and didn't even know.

Jesus spoke to them saying that they strained at a gnat and swallowed a camel. They did everything they could to look right with God. They tried to follow the law, but could not because even though they appeared to believe it, they did not.

Jesus said that they were blind. They sinned, not only on the outside, but also on the inside. He spoke of them as white washed tombs, full of dead men's bones. Because even though they looked good on the outside, they had never repented in their hearts.

It is with the heart that man believes. It is with the heart that he repents. And the flesh must follow after. Because Jesus said they should have done this, and not leave the other undone.

So then, because of unbelief they broke the law, not understanding it and not being able to follow it. They lusted, murdered, and stole from men. Even if it wasn't done on the outside, it was done on the inside. They never repented from the heart.

The works committed by the flesh are only a result of what is inside the heart of man. There is a process to giving birth to sin. It starts inside and then it is brought forth through the flesh.

In the same way their is a process to giving birth to righteousness. It starts inside and then is brought forth through putting the flesh under subjection.

If there is unbelief inside, it will produce the fruit of it. And that fruit is a breaking of the law. It is sin. But sin was there before it was even brought forth, it was already inside.

So from the heart we repent of our sin. The sins that are written of in the law. Because without the law to say thou shalt not steal we would have no sin if we stole. But the law does say this, and so in our hearts we turn from it. And the flesh must be brought under subjection as well.

 

[toLiJC]

If I pick you up one mourning....carry you across town to a widows house.....show you some things she needs done....provide you the materials and tools work beside you and show you how to do the things your not familier with
You have worked but it has been my work you have worked not a work of your own origination. Paul has called us sons in inheratance but servants(bond-slaves) in the ministry of our lives.
Our faith is alive so it is in motion not just a thought....at the same time we are not the author or finisher of that faith.

it is good that there be always something wherewith to be contributed to the overall salvation in Jesus Christ

Blessings

 

[fozzy]

posted:absolutely no one said that or meant it or even implied they think faith in christ jesus is not enough,

This is the main crux.

And as the result of His sacrifice and resurrection, saving grace and mercy then we want to follow Him, His wisdom, His guidance.

What is implied by the law proponents is that God gives grace so that we can go back and keep the old covenant law. This is very much implied in almost every post I read. This is why I like to show that the violation of the law from a new covenant perspective is one of unbelief. The new covenant is not an addition to the old it is a replacement. Old covenant law has been replaced and is no longer binding on the believer who is led by the Spirit.

 

[fozzy]

So as you trust the HOLY Spirit to live through you which laws do you notice he has no concern for.

The old. If you ever talk to someone who is truly converted and led by the Spirit they never talk about the law. They always talk about Jesus and how he saved them. How he removed the terrible burdens they used to struggle with and how grateful they are for this. How their whole life has been changed. Those who always talk about the law and how everyone else is sinning so badly, I really have to question their experience with Jesus.

 

[fozzy]

We are indeed close. And those are excellent verses. I would like to take a moment to talk about this one quote though. Because it is very close to a perfect understanding of this.

The law being broken by unbelief...that is the key here. Jesus said that our righteousness had to exceed that of the religious leaders of that day. And they attempted to follow the law. Yet Jesus said they did not believe the law when He said that if they believed Moses they would believe Him.

No we're not close. Even with faith and grace and love you cannot keep the law or the commandments. You don't seem to realize this. Grace was not given to go back and keep the old law that has a curse attached to it. Are you aware of this? If you go back thinking you have grace and you now have the power to keep the law you are deceived and will receive the curse which is what Jesus experienced on the cross. Do you want that?

 

[rick357]

What is implied by the law proponents is that God gives grace so that we can go back and keep the old covenant law. This is very much implied in almost every post I read. This is why I like to show that the violation of the law from a new covenant perspective is one of unbelief. The new covenant is not an addition to the old it is a replacement. Old covenant law has been replaced and is no longer binding on the believer who is led by the Spirit.

The statment that such is implied is an admittance that such has not been said....this is what you believe is being said....what has been said is that the Spirit living in us does not act against what God has said is right....
This being true the law teaches us when we are leaning on our own power and not his....this is so we can trust him not that we can perform.....we should be dead in his cross.....
This argument is against those who say grace means actions dont matter only belief....but actions are a mirror of what is being believed.

 

[rick357]

The old. If you ever talk to someone who is truly converted and led by the Spirit they never talk about the law. They always talk about Jesus and how he saved them. How he removed the terrible burdens they used to struggle with and how grateful they are for this. How their whole life has been changed. Those who always talk about the law and how everyone else is sinning so badly, I really have to question their experience with Jesus.

Sin is mans bondage not the law....I have said the law is a promise of the life he is bringing us into....where have I said everyone is sinning so much?

 

[NannaNae]

grace.. here is my ideas of grace.. some will be saved.. as though by fire and others won't be..
1Co 3:8
Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

1Co 3:9
For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

1Co 3:10
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

1Co 3:11
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1Co 3:12
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

1Co 3:13
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1Co 3:14
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1Co 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1Co 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1Co 3:17
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1Co 3:18
¶
Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

grace is that no matter how rotten some may build on that foundation.. they will be saved just for trying.
but if they promote death and deathing thier own inner foundations which are from him .. they will not be saved. and it matters not what they build looks like, if their foundations is really themselves , or the self projection ( "jesus"/ golden calf at his feet ) , and or just doctrines/ formulas/ witchcraft/ rebellion of men.

 

[fozzy]

The statment that such is implied is an admittance that such has not been said....

It has been said as the many verses I always quote show which are not my words but those of scripture. You don't like those verses and love to think we have to keep the law and trust in our good works. Do you believe in the gospel or the good news?

 

[fozzy]

Sin is mans bondage not the law....I have said the law is a promise of the life he is bringing us into....where have I said everyone is sinning so much?

The law is a curse and a yoke of bondage and has been replaced by something better.

 

[fozzy]

If I pick you up one mourning....carry you across town to a widows house.....show you some things she needs done....provide you the materials and tools work beside you and show you how to do the things your not familier with
You have worked but it has been my work you have worked not a work of your own origination. Paul has called us sons in inheratance but servants(bond-slaves) in the ministry of our lives.
Our faith is alive so it is in motion not just a thought....at the same time we are not the author or finisher of that faith.

This is a dead faith. These works are a desperate attempt to justify ourselves apart from God or to win his favor which is a selfish motivation. Our works do reveal what is inside and this is what the scribes and pharisees did. Your righteousness has to exceed this.