An Open Invite To Talk About The Law And Grace

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fozzy

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I did deal with that verse and the fact that the word is ministration not ministry...and yes in the ministration that comes from men the law is death....but the same law in the ministration of the spirit promises life

The word for ministration is actually translated as ministry many other times in the NT and it makes no difference because it says that it is done away. And it is not the same law, please re-read the verses. The one in stone is done away while the one in the Spirit stays. God does not write commandments in your heart, he gives you his love via the Spirit.
 
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fozzy

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No, the OT is not about grace. Grace is totally a New Covenant concept. The Hebrew language did not have a word for what we know as the New Covenant concept of grace. Why have a word for that which does not exist in your experience? No one would know what it meant. New covenant "grace" did not exist in the context of the old covenant. John explains in the prologue of his gospel that "grace...was realized in Jesus Christ" (John 1:17); i.e. grace "came into being," "came to pass," "happened" historically in Jesus Christ. That is why they did not have a word for the New Covenant concept of "grace" prior to the time of Jesus Christ, in the Old Testament era.

What a breath of fresh air.;)^_^:yum:
 
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fozzy

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He is certainly all I need but he gives me more than I understand or can concieve of ....
the law teaches me the fullness of what he has done.

The job of the law is to teach us that we are sinners and incapable of any good thing. Once this lesson is learned it no longer has jurisdiction over us. We are to live by the faith of the Son of God from that point on. Those that go back have left their first love and are stricken with Galatianism which is usually incurable.
 
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rick357

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The job of the law is to teach us that we are sinners and incapable of any good thing. Once this lesson is learned it no longer has jurisdiction over us. We are to live by the faith of the Son of God from that point on. Those that go back have left their first love and are stricken with Galatianism which is usually incurable.

So more than two thirds of the bible is disposable?
 
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fozzy

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So more than two thirds of the bible is disposable?

I know it's hard to let go but you will be better off without it. It will only bring you pain. The law is mean and cold and will always point out all your faults no matter how well you keep it. Jesus never treats us like this. He always says that everything is going to be ok.
 
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rick357

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I know it's hard to let go but you will be better off without it. It will only bring you pain. The law is mean and cold and will always point out all your faults no matter how well you keep it. Jesus never treats us like this. He always says that everything is going to be ok.

Did you know a bishop in Turkey proposed the same idea around 150 a.d....He went further than you he said the writings of luke and Paul should be the only scripture...but in essance said the same.
At that time all apostles were dead....probably all their students were gone also....although if John died around 100 it is possable that some who sat under his ministry where still alive....yet the NT text should have been well circulated by then....my point being the message should have been pretty pure at that time....and this bishop named marcion was declared by the bishops of the churches to be a heratic who taught thinhs that opposed the truth including his desire to remove OT
 
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fozzy

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Did you know a bishop in Turkey proposed the same idea around 150 a.d....He went further than you he said the writings of luke and Paul should be the only scripture...but in essance said the same.
At that time all apostles were dead....probably all their students were gone also....although if John died around 100 it is possable that some who sat under his ministry where still alive....yet the NT text should have been well circulated by then....my point being the message should have been pretty pure at that time....and this bishop named marcion was declared by the bishops of the churches to be a heratic who taught thinhs that opposed the truth including his desire to remove OT

I never said to remove it. There are many things we can learn from studying the OT. Prophecy and doctrine and God's character are just a few. But the old covenant system of righteousness where God said over and over 'keep my commandments and do them' is the wrong way to heaven. Many struggle with the idea that God would give the Israelites a faulty covenant and this is understandable. The implications are profound. God who is perfect gave something that is imperfect and flawed. It's hard to understand but the best theory that I have come up with is that God wants us to try and keep it even the Gentiles with the moral law not so much the ceremonial. It is in the process of trying to be good and doing what God commands that we truly learn what we are.

'O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.' Rom. 7:24,25;8:1
 
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rick357

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I never said to remove it. There are many things we can learn from studying the OT. Prophecy and doctrine and God's character are just a few. But the old covenant system of righteousness where God said over and over 'keep my commandments and do them' is the wrong way to heaven. Many struggle with the idea that God would give the Israelites a faulty covenant and this is understandable. The implications are profound. God who is perfect gave something that is imperfect and flawed. It's hard to understand but the best theory that I have come up with is that God wants us to try and keep it even the Gentiles with the moral law not so much the ceremonial. It is in the process of trying to be good and doing what God commands that we truly learn what we are.

'O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.' Rom. 7:24,25;8:1

Fozzy(like the name by the way)
I agree with you...a jewish rabbi would also agree with you....the idea of works righteousness has always had its proponents but as a whole the Jewish people have always relied on Gods mercy and grace...they could see easy enough that perfect obediance was not possible the rejection of Jesus was more about their mindset that messiah was a conquering King....of course before we are to harsh all of us have some preconcieved notions that get in the way of seeing Jesus.
Read deuteronomy it says again and again that the only way to live out the commands is to love God with everything and he would circumsize our heart.
The law is not our enemy...it showed us the truth we were all dead men in bondage to sin and we could never be good enough of ourselves to atain to the life obediance promised....it brings us to christ....Paul would say have I become your enemy because I tell you the truth....if the law could talk it wpuld say the same thing.
 
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Steeno7

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Fozzy(like the name by the way)
I agree with you...a jewish rabbi would also agree with you....the idea of works righteousness has always had its proponents but as a whole the Jewish people have always relied on Gods mercy and grace...they could see easy enough that perfect obediance was not possible the rejection of Jesus was more about their mindset that messiah was a conquering King....of course before we are to harsh all of us have some preconcieved notions that get in the way of seeing Jesus.
Read deuteronomy it says again and again that the only way to live out the commands is to love God with everything and he would circumsize our heart.
The law is not our enemy...it showed us the truth we were all dead men in bondage to sin and we could never be good enough of ourselves to atain to the life obediance promised....it brings us to christ....Paul would say have I become your enemy because I tell you the truth....if the law could talk it wpuld say the same thing.

And once it has led you to Christ it has served its purpose for you.

"Therefore the Law was our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." Gal. 3:24-25
 
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rick357

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And once it has led you to Christ it has served its purpose for you.

"Therefore the Law was our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." Gal. 3:24-25

I have no intention of being under the law I am in christ....but it was given that we might learn still.....was Paul teaching to be under the law when he said dont muzzle the ox....was he teaching dead letters when he taught of ishmael and isaac....did he teach bondage when he said the works of the flesh are evidant and those who do such things shall not enter the kingdom of heaven
Did he say the law was holy...did he say it could make a man wise....did he say these things were given for our instruction

When grace becomes our actions have no consequence and do not matter....we make Paul a liar.
 
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Steeno7

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I have no intention of being under the law I am in christ....but it was given that we might learn still.....was Paul teaching to be under the law when he said dont muzzle the ox....was he teaching dead letters when he taught of ishmael and isaac....did he teach bondage when he said the works of the flesh are evidant and those who do such things shall not enter the kingdom of heaven
Did he say the law was holy...did he say it could make a man wise....did he say these things were given for our instruction

When grace becomes our actions have no consequence and do not matter....we make Paul a liar.

What have you learned from the law?
 
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Steeno7

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If Moses gave us the law then it seems the first five books would qualify....but I asked you so narrow it as you see it and we go from there.

Lets make it real easy. Just do the ten commandments. Wait, even easier, just do the first commandment, that's all. What have you learned from the first commandment?
 
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rick357

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Lets make it real easy. Just do the ten commandments. Wait, even easier, just do the first commandment, that's all. What have you learned from the first commandment?

The short version God is to be the only power in our life. From the power of diety all the way down to the only influance on our decisions....for he has brought us out of the land(Adam out of the dirt....Abraham out of Ur....Israel out of Egypt...believers out of the world)
Out of the house of bondage (Israel from the two Egypts...us from the penalty and the bondage of sin)we are his house what had once had influence on us must be completly purged.
 
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Alithis

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Honestly you have probably learned a great deal about Christ from the law and do not think of it....should we start at Genesis Exodus Leviticus.

The law of the LORD is perfect, refreshing the soul. The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple....

we do indeed receive much instruction in the "ways" of righteousness through both the law and the prophets.as both are spoken by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
and the majority of christians do not view any of the law or the prophets as a means to obtain righteousness..but as a pointer to the one -the LORD JESUS- who obtained it for us.And still fully accept and embrace the perfect precepts therein as instructional to living "in"the righteousness of Christ by faith.

"For All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"

it is almost like some folks have been taught to fear the law.\
if one refers to it they go into tizzy as if my considerations of its "perfect"precepts will suddenly make me fall from living in the grace of God by faith.yet i learn from it more and more of the differences of the world and the righteousness of God .not because of the law itself but because ,by faith,the author of it now resides in my heart .
 
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jbearnolimits

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I am surprised to find this thread still going. But then again, the circles never end do they?

I just thought I would ask you all some questions, and let you answer me if you don't mind.

Is it a sin to have any other God but the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?
Is it a sin to make Idols?
Is it a sin to take the name of God in vain? (by the way I have an interesting thought on His name being His word)
Is it a sin to forget the day of rest (never spend time with God)?
Is it a sin to disobey and dishonor your parents?
Is it a sin to murder?
Is it a sin to commit adultery?
Is it a sin to steal?
Is it a sin to lie?
Is it a sin to envy or lust after something that is not yours and can not be?

Are these things sin? And if so, are we free to live in these things and commit these things if we so choose? If we choose to do so, wouldn't that mean we have chosen to deny the word of God?

And by the way, I did see a post where it was suggested that the entire Old Testament should be ignored. Is that not the denial of the word of God?

But the line seems to be clearly drawn between those who claim repentance is needed for salvation and those who claim belief alone is enough.

Right now I want to speak to those reading this who have not chosen a side. I will leave the rest to go in circles, but for those who are dizzy of it I ask you to make a choice. Will God justify the unrepentant, or will He require justice on those who scoff at righteousness?

I can tell you on the authority of the word of God, whom has been denied many times in this thread, that those who do not turn from wickedness will not receive mercy since they have refused to turn away from sin. And those who turn away will receive mercy, even if they fall thousands of times, because they are trying to walk with Jesus.
 
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fozzy

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The law of the LORD is perfect, refreshing the soul. The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple....

we do indeed receive much instruction in the "ways" of righteousness through both the law and the prophets.as both are spoken by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
and the majority of christians do not view any of the law or the prophets as a means to obtain righteousness..but as a pointer to the one -the LORD JESUS- who obtained it for us.And still fully accept and embrace the perfect precepts therein as instructional to living "in"the righteousness of Christ by faith.

"For All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"

it is almost like some folks have been taught to fear the law.\
if one refers to it they go into tizzy as if my considerations of its "perfect"precepts will suddenly make me fall from living in the grace of God by faith.yet i learn from it more and more of the differences of the world and the righteousness of God .not because of the law itself but because ,by faith,the author of it now resides in my heart .

It is almost as if some folks have been taught dispensationalist ideas form the time they were little baby Christians. Believing that the body of Christ is broken up into two groups where the believing Jews have to keep the law and the Gentiles just have to believe. It's only a matter of time before the Gentiles are forced to keep the law aw well. I have actually met dispensationalists who reject the new covenant because they think it is only for ethnic Israel. Talk about a highway to hell. Let's all reject the new covenant because we don't have the right blood type. At least there are some who are not duped by this kind of trash.
 
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