An Open Invite To Talk About The Law And Grace

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fozzy

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I am surprised to find this thread still going. But then again, the circles never end do they?

I just thought I would ask you all some questions, and let you answer me if you don't mind.

Is it a sin to have any other God but the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?
Is it a sin to make Idols?
Is it a sin to take the name of God in vain? (by the way I have an interesting thought on His name being His word)
Is it a sin to forget the day of rest (never spend time with God)?
Is it a sin to disobey and dishonor your parents?
Is it a sin to murder?
Is it a sin to commit adultery?
Is it a sin to steal?
Is it a sin to lie?
Is it a sin to envy or lust after something that is not yours and can not be?

Are these things sin? And if so, are we free to live in these things and commit these things if we so choose? If we choose to do so, wouldn't that mean we have chosen to deny the word of God?

And by the way, I did see a post where it was suggested that the entire Old Testament should be ignored. Is that not the denial of the word of God?

But the line seems to be clearly drawn between those who claim repentance is needed for salvation and those who claim belief alone is enough.

Right now I want to speak to those reading this who have not chosen a side. I will leave the rest to go in circles, but for those who are dizzy of it I ask you to make a choice. Will God justify the unrepentant, or will He require justice on those who scoff at righteousness?

I can tell you on the authority of the word of God, whom has been denied many times in this thread, that those who do not turn from wickedness will not receive mercy since they have refused to turn away from sin. And those who turn away will receive mercy, even if they fall thousands of times, because they are trying to walk with Jesus.

Gee, I wonder if the Holy Spirit can show me that these things are sin. Apparently not in your understanding. I have to make a pilgrimage to some far away land so I can read a bunch of commandments written on a rock somewhere. That sounds like a much better way.

As far as I am concerned you have chosen your side and it's not grace. You defend the law as vehemently as the strictest pharisee ever did. And then you want to say that your under grace? I don't think so. You may be able to fool the weak in faith but not anyone else. You are an enemy of the gospel with your Galatian law worship.
 
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Alithis

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Gee, I wonder if the Holy Spirit can show me that these things are sin. Apparently not in your understanding. I have to make a pilgrimage to some far away land so I can read a bunch of commandments written on a rock somewhere. That sounds like a much better way.

As far as I am concerned you have chosen your side and it's not grace. You defend the law as vehemently as the strictest pharisee ever did. And then you want to say that your under grace? I don't think so. You may be able to fool the weak in faith but not anyone else. You are an enemy of the gospel with your Galatian law worship.

:confused: that is ..Sooo not the point being made.& the post referred to does not even remotely imply the Holy Spirit cant tell you that.. he wrote those absolutes after all.
i think that regardless of how we become aware of them..they remain sin.(falling short ,missing the mark)
 
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Steeno7

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The short version God is to be the only power in our life. From the power of diety all the way down to the only influance on our decisions....for he has brought us out of the land(Adam out of the dirt....Abraham out of Ur....Israel out of Egypt...believers out of the world)
Out of the house of bondage (Israel from the two Egypts...us from the penalty and the bondage of sin)we are his house what had once had influence on us must be completly purged.

Okay. So, how ya doin'? Are you influenced always and in all ways only by God? Have you purged completely all influence on you other than God? Is it only God that influences all of your decisions?
 
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rick357

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Okay. So, how ya doin'? Are you influenced always and in all ways only by God? Have you purged completely all influence on you other than God? Is it only God that influences all of your decisions?

I do not believe in sinless perfection(in the adimic flesh)....do you?
The rabbit holes run deep and there are strongholds to be torn down....stepping into the promise of life from God is like Israel crossing Jordon every stronghold was defeated but only as the people came ready to occupy that place....there is a vision...then line apon line....precept apon precept....and finally from faith to faith
Further what I have now is a trust of my inheratance not a fullness.
 
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Steeno7

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I do not believe in sinless perfection(in the adimic flesh)....do you?
The rabbit holes run deep and there are strongholds to be torn down....stepping into the promise of life from God is like Israel crossing Jordon every stronghold was defeated but only as the people came ready to occupy that place....there is a vision...then line apon line....precept apon precept....and finally from faith to faith
Further what I have now is a trust of my inheratance not a fullness.

You do not believe in sinless perfection? Well who are you? God does. And sinless perfection is all that He will ever accept. So, how ya doin?
 
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Alithis

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You do not believe in sinless perfection? Well who are you? God does. And sinless perfection is all that He will ever accept. So, how ya doin?

i believe he means sinless perfection by means of outer effort/works.

we know we are made sinless by faith through the blood of the Lord Jesus shed for us..

but i think you knew that ....
 
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rick357

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You do not believe in sinless perfection? Well who are you? God does. And sinless perfection is all that He will ever accept. So, how ya doin?

God does? Jesus paying your penalty and God declaring you innocent shows that you do sin not that you have no sin....or is that only before you accept him....are you speaking of their being no condemnation.....if their was no sin why would you ever ask if you were condemed....walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit....so how are you doing? Do you walk after the Spirit 24/7 and if so then you never experiance any works of the flesh in your walk.
The law teaches me what Jesus is working in me...you say God says his followers are sinless?

*[[Heb 12:1-2]] KJV*
%v 1% Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
%v 2% Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Strange doesnt he realize we are sinless.

*[[1Jn 2:1-2]] KJV*
%v 1% My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
%v 2% And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Anouther apostle who doesnt get it

*[[Phi 3:9-15]] KJV*
%v 9% And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
%v 10% That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
%v 11% If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
%v 12% Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
%v 13% Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
%v 14% I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
%v 15% Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

What is this righteousness from God Paul speaks of....is it a credit...or a badge....or a lie...for from faith to fath is the righteousness of Christ REVEALED in us.

Let us define righteousness:

h1. G1343

Original: *δικαιοσύνη*

Transliteration: *dikaiosunē*

Phonetic: *dik-ah-yos-oo'-nay*

*Thayer Definition*:

# in a broad sense: state of him who is as he ought to be, righteousness, the condition acceptable to God

## the doctrine concerning the way in which man may attain a state approved of God
## integrity, virtue, purity of life, rightness, correctness of thinking feeling, and acting
# in a narrower sense, justice or the virtue which gives each his due

Origin: from [[d 1342]]

TDNT entry: 05:12,2

Part(s) of speech: Noun Feminine

*Strong's Definition*: From [[G1342]]; _equity_ (of character or act); specifically (Christian)_ - righteousness.
 
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Steeno7

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God does? Jesus paying your penalty and God declaring you innocent shows that you do sin not that you have no sin....or is that only before you accept him....are you speaking of their being no condemnation.....if their was no sin why would you ever ask if you were condemed....walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit....so how are you doing? Do you walk after the Spirit 24/7 and if so then you never experiance any works of the flesh in your walk.
The law teaches me what Jesus is working in me...you say God says his followers are sinless?

*[[Heb 12:1-2]] KJV*
%v 1% Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
%v 2% Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Strange doesnt he realize we are sinless.

*[[1Jn 2:1-2]] KJV*
%v 1% My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
%v 2% And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Anouther apostle who doesnt get it

*[[Phi 3:9-15]] KJV*
%v 9% And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
%v 10% That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
%v 11% If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
%v 12% Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
%v 13% Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
%v 14% I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
%v 15% Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

What is this righteousness from God Paul speaks of....is it a credit...or a badge....or a lie...for from faith to fath is the righteousness of Christ REVEALED in us.

Let us define righteousness:

h1. G1343

Original: *δικαιοσύνη*

Transliteration: *dikaiosunē*

Phonetic: *dik-ah-yos-oo'-nay*

*Thayer Definition*:

# in a broad sense: state of him who is as he ought to be, righteousness, the condition acceptable to God

## the doctrine concerning the way in which man may attain a state approved of God
## integrity, virtue, purity of life, rightness, correctness of thinking feeling, and acting
# in a narrower sense, justice or the virtue which gives each his due

Origin: from [[d 1342]]

TDNT entry: 05:12,2

Part(s) of speech: Noun Feminine

*Strong's Definition*: From [[G1342]]; _equity_ (of character or act); specifically (Christian)_ - righteousness.

Oh, I understand grace, but we are talking about the law now. And under the law, I fail, we all fail. The ten commandments are not a primer on how to be good, they are a primer on how to be perfect. They are not suggestions for being good, they are commands that must be carried out exactly, without fail. To fail at even one point is to fail at it all.

Your flesh will never improve. It doesn’t get ‘better’. It doesn't improve, and it isn't redeemable. All that you are apart from Christ and that stands opposed to Him, will always be opposed to Him. It will be as dirty the day you die as it was the day you first met Jesus. That is what the law teaches.

What did Jesus say was the greatest commandment? And yet you still do not love the lord God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. You still covet, murder and commit adultery. We all do. If the law hasn’t taught you that, it hasn’t taught you anything.
 
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rick357

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Oh, I understand grace, but we are talking about the law now. And under the law, I fail, we all fail. The ten commandments are not a primer on how to be good, they are a primer on how to be perfect. They are not suggestions for being good, they are commands that must be carried out exactly, without fail. To fail at even one point is to fail at it all.

Your flesh will never improve. It doesn’t get ‘better’. It doesn't improve, and it isn't redeemable. All that you are apart from Christ and that stands opposed to Him, will always be opposed to Him. It will be as dirty the day you die as it was the day you first met Jesus. That is what the law teaches.

What did Jesus say was the greatest commandment? And yet you still do not love the lord God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. You still covet, murder and commit adultery. We all do. If the law hasn’t taught you that, it hasn’t taught you anything.

By your answer you do not understand grace at all...grace is not only a forgiveness of sin but a deliverance...the old man is crucified in christ but their is a new man who is you made one with God...consider what John wrote....
I write unto you that you sin not...BUT if you sin...the law is a promise of what grace is changing you into..
What do you believe Paul meant when he said....do we continue in sin that grace may abound....or do we make christ the minister of sin....the gentiles who by nature do those things contained in the law

What does these verses mean

*[[Rom 2:11-16]] KJV*
%v 11% For there is no respect of persons with God.
%v 12% For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
%v 13% (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
%v 14% For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
%v 15% Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
%v 16% In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

And since we have become the house of God and made one wirth the temple he raised up three days later....does this not also apply to us


*[[Jer 7:1-34]] KJV*
%v 1% The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
%v 2% Stand in the gate of the LORD'S house, and proclaim there this word, and say, Hear the word of the LORD, all ye of Judah, that enter in at these gates to worship the LORD.
%v 3% Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, Amend your ways and your doings, and I will cause you to dwell in this place.
%v 4% Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, are these.
%v 5% For if ye throughly amend your ways and your doings; if ye throughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbour;
%v 6% If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:
%v 7% Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever.
%v 8% Behold, ye trust in lying words, that cannot profit.
%v 9% Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not;
%v 10% And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, **We are delivered to do all these abominations? **
%v 11% Is this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, even I have seen it, saith the LORD.
%v 12% But go ye now unto my place which was in Shiloh, where I set my name at the first, and see what I did to it for the wickedness of my people Israel.
%v 13% And now, because ye have done all these works, saith the LORD, and I spake unto you, rising up early and speaking, but ye heard not; and I called you, but ye answered not;
%v 14% Therefore will I do unto this house, which is called by my name, wherein ye trust, and unto the place which I gave to you and to your fathers, as I have done to Shiloh.
%v 15% And I will cast you out of my sight, as I have cast out all your brethren, even the whole seed of Ephraim.
%v 16% Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.
%v 17% Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?
%v 18% The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
%v 19% Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?
%v 20% Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.
%v 21% Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh.
%v 22% For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
%v 23% But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
%v 24% But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.
%v 25% Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them:
%v 26% Yet they hearkened not unto me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers.
%v 27% Therefore thou shalt speak all these words unto them; but they will not hearken to thee: thou shalt also call unto them; but they will not answer thee.
%v 28% But thou shalt say unto them, This is a nation that obeyeth not the voice of the LORD their God, nor receiveth correction: truth is perished, and is cut off from their mouth.
%v 29% Cut off thine hair, O Jerusalem, and cast it away, and take up a lamentation on high places; for the LORD hath rejected and forsaken the generation of his wrath.
%v 30% For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.
%v 31% And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.
%v 32% Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter: for they shall bury in Tophet, till there be no place.
%v 33% And the carcases of this people shall be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth; and none shall fray them away.
%v 34% Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate.

That first house.. the old man...our Adamic nature has been destroyed without mercy in the cross of Christ
We have been given the Spirit but if we use our freedom in Christ as an occasion to the flesh what does the scripture say our end will be.

*[[Heb 10:26-31]] KJV*
%v 26% For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
%v 27% But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
%v 28% He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
%v 29% Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
%v 30% For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
%v 31% It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Grace is given that we can be delivered from sin not to protect us in sin....it is a process his mercy and justification keep us....but we can never make peace with sin .
 
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Steeno7

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By your answer you do not understand grace at all...grace is not only a forgiveness of sin but a deliverance...the old man is crucified in christ but their is a new man who is you made one with God...consider what John wrote....
I write unto you that you sin not...BUT if you sin...the law is a promise of what grace is changing you into..
What do you believe Paul meant when he said....do we continue in sin that grace may abound....or do we make christ the minister of sin....the gentiles who by nature do those things contained in the law

What does these verses mean

*[[Rom 2:11-16]] KJV*
%v 11% For there is no respect of persons with God.
%v 12% For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
%v 13% (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
%v 14% For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
%v 15% Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
%v 16% In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

And since we have become the house of God and made one wirth the temple he raised up three days later....does this not also apply to us


*[[Jer 7:1-34]] KJV*
%v 1% The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
%v 2% Stand in the gate of the LORD'S house, and proclaim there this word, and say, Hear the word of the LORD, all ye of Judah, that enter in at these gates to worship the LORD.
%v 3% Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, Amend your ways and your doings, and I will cause you to dwell in this place.
%v 4% Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, are these.
%v 5% For if ye throughly amend your ways and your doings; if ye throughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbour;
%v 6% If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:
%v 7% Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever.
%v 8% Behold, ye trust in lying words, that cannot profit.
%v 9% Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not;
%v 10% And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, **We are delivered to do all these abominations? **
%v 11% Is this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, even I have seen it, saith the LORD.
%v 12% But go ye now unto my place which was in Shiloh, where I set my name at the first, and see what I did to it for the wickedness of my people Israel.
%v 13% And now, because ye have done all these works, saith the LORD, and I spake unto you, rising up early and speaking, but ye heard not; and I called you, but ye answered not;
%v 14% Therefore will I do unto this house, which is called by my name, wherein ye trust, and unto the place which I gave to you and to your fathers, as I have done to Shiloh.
%v 15% And I will cast you out of my sight, as I have cast out all your brethren, even the whole seed of Ephraim.
%v 16% Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.
%v 17% Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?
%v 18% The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
%v 19% Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?
%v 20% Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.
%v 21% Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh.
%v 22% For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
%v 23% But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
%v 24% But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.
%v 25% Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them:
%v 26% Yet they hearkened not unto me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers.
%v 27% Therefore thou shalt speak all these words unto them; but they will not hearken to thee: thou shalt also call unto them; but they will not answer thee.
%v 28% But thou shalt say unto them, This is a nation that obeyeth not the voice of the LORD their God, nor receiveth correction: truth is perished, and is cut off from their mouth.
%v 29% Cut off thine hair, O Jerusalem, and cast it away, and take up a lamentation on high places; for the LORD hath rejected and forsaken the generation of his wrath.
%v 30% For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.
%v 31% And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.
%v 32% Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter: for they shall bury in Tophet, till there be no place.
%v 33% And the carcases of this people shall be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth; and none shall fray them away.
%v 34% Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate.

That first house.. the old man...our Adamic nature has been destroyed without mercy in the cross of Christ
We have been given the Spirit but if we use our freedom in Christ as an occasion to the flesh what does the scripture say our end will be.

*[[Heb 10:26-31]] KJV*
%v 26% For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
%v 27% But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
%v 28% He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
%v 29% Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
%v 30% For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
%v 31% It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Grace is given that we can be delivered from sin not to protect us in sin....it is a process his mercy and justification keep us....but we can never make peace with sin .

My friend, it is a grave error to think that the flesh has somehow been eradicated at conversion or that it will be at any time during our life. The flesh and the Spirit war against each other, so that, "The flesh sets its desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh" (Gal. 5:17). That will continue until the day we go to be with the Lord.
 
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rick357

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My friend, it is a grave error to think that the flesh has somehow been eradicated at conversion or that it will be at any time during our life. The flesh and the Spirit war against each other, so that, "The flesh sets its desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh" (Gal. 5:17). That will continue until the day we go to be with the Lord.

That would be a grave error...but it is not what Ive been saying....Adam is crucified in christ and is dead but still in us till corruption puts on incorruption.
We live our life by trust in either the flesh of the old man which results in sin...or trust in the Spirit who has made the new man and can not sin
If we see sin active in us we know that we are leaning on that old man and place trust in the new
The old man is the thorn of our flesh but the grace of God is sufficient....in one who desires God the old man serves to drive us to faith in grace.
 
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Steeno7

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That would be a grave error...but it is not what Ive been saying....Adam is crucified in christ and is dead but still in us till corruption puts on incorruption.
We live our life by trust in either the flesh of the old man which results in sin...or trust in the Spirit who has made the new man and can not sin
If we see sin active in us we know that we are leaning on that old man and place trust in the new
The old man is the thorn of our flesh but the grace of God is sufficient....in one who desires God the old man serves to drive us to faith in grace.

Oh, okay. It's destroyed but it's not destroyed. Dead, but not dead. Got it.
 
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rick357

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Oh, okay. It's destroyed but it's not destroyed. Dead, but not dead. Got it.

Its not an on off switch its about faith....he is only as crucified as you are relying on christ....else why the verse

*[[Luk 9:23]] KJV* And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Maybe think of it like this....he is dead but not willing to think he is....so every place in our life we see him acting as though he has life we trust Christ that he is dead and the Spirit only lives through us.

You claim in one post we will sin....then act as if the old man is dead and the Spirit only lives in us....then anouther post has the flesh and the Spirit warring in us....do you understand that all of those things are true.
This is our fight of faith.

*[[1Ti 6:11-13]] KJV*
%v 11% But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
%v 12% Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
%v 13% I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
 
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fozzy

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:confused: that is ..Sooo not the point being made.& the post referred to does not even remotely imply the Holy Spirit cant tell you that.. he wrote those absolutes after all.
i think that regardless of how we become aware of them..they remain sin.(falling short ,missing the mark)

No one is denying that. But those who judge based on actions (law) often fail to discern motive (Spirit) and make a wrong judgment. The Spirit speaks to us thru our conscience and can show in minute detail what is right and what is wrong. This is far better than the commandment in stone. Any way you look at it the Spirit is a better way.
 
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fozzy

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Grace is given that we can be delivered from sin not to protect us in sin....it is a process his mercy and justification keep us....but we can never make peace with sin .

No one is denying that. But what is sin - bad behavior or a bad heart? Those who focus on law get infatuated with behavior like the pharisees. Those who focus on grace and the Spirit know that once the heart is cleansed the behavior will take care of itself. I don't need to point out every fault like a Christian noob for lack of a better term.
 
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rick357

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This is a holy flesh statement and is most definitely false. This is where the law leads people to. Another reason why it is bad.

One Paul says the law is holy not bad....two if you want to ignore what Ive said ...fine....if you want to draw your own conclusions to argue against... fine....but why edit a post and remove context just say what you are saying.
 
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rick357

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No one is denying that. But what is sin - bad behavior or a bad heart? Those who focus on law get infatuated with behavior like the pharisees. Those who focus on grace and the Spirit know that once the heart is cleansed the behavior will take care of itself. I don't need to point out every fault like a Christian noob for lack of a better term.

Which faults have I pointed out...my post are about the heart condition not the end results
 
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rick357

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No one is denying that. But what is sin - bad behavior or a bad heart? Those who focus on law get infatuated with behavior like the pharisees. Those who focus on grace and the Spirit know that once the heart is cleansed the behavior will take care of itself. I don't need to point out every fault like a Christian noob for lack of a better term.

I believe what I have stated was seen without the veil of the flesh the law becomes a promise of the life the Spirit is working in us and not a command of what should or should not be done....for under grace we are becoming the law not obeying it.....how does that sound like judging actions
 
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