An Open Invite To Talk About The Law And Grace

[jbearnolimits]

Ok, so I would first like to apologize to dcalling for having taken over the thread with the topic Question about some of the OT killings. I felt the subject being talked about was relevant and did not expect it to take so much of the thread.

Fozzy mentioned that he wanted to make a new thread but didn't get around to it. I hope you don't mind Fozzy but I thought I would go ahead and make it.

So this is a continuation from this point in the other thread: http://www.christianforums.com/t7840366-8/

 

[jbearnolimits]

A quote from the last thread:

So are you really saying that Jesus did not fulfill every aspect of the old covenant ceremonial system? He was the lamb, he was the high priest, he was the Passover, he was the manna and so and so on.

You do realize the implications of what you are saying. That the church has been wrong for 2000 years and your grand revelation of law-keeping is the answer to all our problems. The old covenant system has been tried and was in place for thousands of years and it was a failure. To go back to it again would be sin.

And which laws should we keep? There were 613 commandments in the old covenant, should I just keep some or all of them? Should I eat kosher food and keep the sabbath and the feast days? When I sin do I need to confess my sin over an animal and then kill it on the altar? I don't think PITA would like that. Oh wait a second, there's no temple anymore, guess I can't keep that one.

You would think that Christians would defend the gospel but no now they defend the law. Faith and Love are not good enough now we have work our way to heaven like good legalists do!

I am not sure why you think I said anything about Jesus not fulfilling every aspect of the old covenant ceremonial system. I didn't say that at all. I did however say that He said the law would continue all the way until heaven and earth pass away.

As for the rest of your post I think it may be good to get to one of the roots of the issue.

I would like to ask you what you believe is needed for salvation?

 

[BryanW92]

A quote from the last thread:



I am not sure why you think I said anything about Jesus not fulfilling every aspect of the old covenant ceremonial system. I didn't say that at all. I did however say that He said the law would continue all the way until heaven and earth pass away.

As for the rest of your post I think it may be good to get to one of the roots of the issue.

I would like to ask you what you believe is needed for salvation?

Jesus is all you need. His sacrifice covers our sins and his perfect life redeems us.

True, the law never passes away. Its not OK to murder just because Jesus takes away your sin. But, if you do, you still have hope since the temple required by the Law for the sacrifice has been gone for almost 2000 years.

 

[pescador]

I personally believe in keeping the law, all 613 commandments. The law is perfect, holy, and good and defines how humans should live, according to God. I also believe that if I am guilty of having broken even one of God's laws I should be put to death.

Fortunately it is no longer I who live but it is Jesus living in me. Because he was perfect I am perfect. I have died to the law because I live to Christ. I have been born again; I am a new creation. I have been adopted into God's family and am fully his son. In Christ I am sinless since that is the way God sees me (and he is perfect).


The law applies only to those who are not in Christ.

 

[fozzy]

A quote from the last thread:



I am not sure why you think I said anything about Jesus not fulfilling every aspect of the old covenant ceremonial system. I didn't say that at all. I did however say that He said the law would continue all the way until heaven and earth pass away.

As for the rest of your post I think it may be good to get to one of the roots of the issue.

I would like to ask you what you believe is needed for salvation?

Every jot and tittle of the law is still in my bible and has not passed away yet but I as a new covenant Christian am under no obligation to keep the law. And as I said prior, the verses you are quoting in Matt. 5 were directed at the Jews prior to the cross who were still required to keep the law. Those verses taken out of context do not support new covenant law keeping.

 

[fozzy]

I personally believe in keeping the law, all 613 commandments. The law is perfect, holy, and good and defines how humans should live, according to God. I also believe that if I am guilty of having broken even one of God's laws I should be put to death.

Fortunately it is no longer I who live but it is Jesus living in me. Because he was perfect I am perfect. I have died to the law because I live to Christ. I have been born again; I am a new creation. I have been adopted into God's family and am fully his son. In Christ I am sinless since that is the way God sees me (and he is perfect).


The law applies only to those who are not in Christ.

This makes no sense. Those who are dead to the law are keeping the spiritual aspect of the law which is Love not the 613 commands of Moses.

'For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:' Gal. 3:10-13

 

[Steeno7]

Open Invite To Talk About The Law And Grace

The contrast between law and grace is clearly laid out by Paul in Romans 4:14-16;

"For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, neither is there violation. For this reason it is by faith, that it might be in accordance with grace, in order that the promise may be certain to all the descendant, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."

Whereas the law was judicatory and legal, and demanded "works" of obedience, the gospel of grace in Jesus Christ simply invites the receptivity of faith.

 

[tturt]

John 14:15 says If we love Him, we'll keep His commandments.

The laws were/are ceremonial (not necessary now), moral (the 10), health (better physically when we do), and civil (Israel's government).

The 10 Commandments are also in the NT - they're just not all listed together. Plus the two greatest commandments are in the OT. But to "love others as yourself" isn't listed with the 10. Yeshua was ask what's the greatest commandments in the law? "in the law".

I'm concerned when the teaching is His grace makes it where repentance isn't necessary after salvation. I know it was a different dispensation but when Adam and Eve sinned, they were still Yahweh's children but they were in a different spiritual position - among other things. They lost territory. Of course Yeshua's sacrifice was/is for all our sins. Repentance for believers is in Scripture such as The Lord's Prayer, before we take communion and Rev 3 includes "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; ...v19 "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." I'm not ignoring His grace, I'm able to repent and be forgiven - because of His grace.

It really puzzles me why a believer would have a problem repenting?

Law and grace work together imo. Yahweh's laws give us directions for our lives while His grace enables to do what He desires of us. We also realize that we've really got to have Yahweh's help to keep His Word and He knows the intents of our hearts (Heb 4:12), shortcomings, etc. - and keeps us as His children - that's all about His grace and mercy.

 

[Gunny]

Fortunately it is no longer I who live but it is Jesus living in me. Because he was perfect I am perfect. I have died to the law because I live to Christ. I have been born again; I am a new creation. I have been adopted into God's family and am fully his son. In Christ I am sinless since that is the way God sees me (and he is perfect).


The law applies only to those who are not in Christ.

Amen and amen.

"Jesus replied: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments".

John 22:37-40
NIV

 

[jbearnolimits]

This makes no sense. Those who are dead to the law are keeping the spiritual aspect of the law which is Love not the 613 commands of Moses.

Here is what you fail to understand. The law is based on love. When you love, you will naturally keep the law. This is why we need to walk in the spirit. Because our flesh does not have the love of God. Which is why we could never keep it in our flesh.

I like what I see others saying here. Because repentance is indeed a requirement for salvation. But there are those who do not understand what repentance is.

Repentance is not simply trusting Jesus. It is also turning from sin. We would not know what sin is except the law tells us. Paul makes this very clear.

A gospel that says trust in the work that Jesus has done, without saying that we need repentance is a false gospel and will send people to Hell.

 

[jbearnolimits]

It really puzzles me why a believer would have a problem repenting?

Law and grace work together imo. Yahweh's laws give us directions for our lives while His grace enables to do what He desires of us. We also realize that we've really got to have Yahweh's help to keep His Word and He knows the intents of our hearts (Heb 4:12), shortcomings, etc. - and keeps us as His children - that's all about His grace and mercy.

It puzzles you when a believer doesn't have repentance because without repentance they are not believers. Since this is a requirement of salvation.

I also want to say that I agree very much with your statement that grace and the law work together. You spoke very well in this.

 

[Alithis]

Ok, so I would first like to apologize to dcalling for having taken over the thread with the topic Question about some of the OT killings. I felt the subject being talked about was relevant and did not expect it to take so much of the thread.

Fozzy mentioned that he wanted to make a new thread but didn't get around to it. I hope you don't mind Fozzy but I thought I would go ahead and make it.

So this is a continuation from this point in the other thread: http://www.christianforums.com/t7840366-8/

law= thou shalt not steal
grace=-because of the lord Jesus has done for me on the cross and that he now lives in me.. I will not steal

The latter brings about the gracious fulfilment of the former beyond our own ability.

 

[jbearnolimits]

law= thou shalt not steal
grace=-because of the lord Jesus has done for me on the cross and that he now lives in me.. I will not steal

The latter brings about the gracious fulfilment of the former beyond our own ability.

I wish there was a like button on here lol.

 

[MWood]

It puzzles you when a believer doesn't have repentance because without repentance they are not believers. Since this is a requirement of salvation.

I also want to say that I agree very much with your statement that grace and the law work together. You spoke very well in this.

Read John 3:15
Where is repentance in that?
Salvation is by grace through faith

Read John 3:16
Where is repentance in that?
Salvation is by grace through faith

Read John 5:24
Where is repentance in that?
Salvation is by grace through faith

Read Romans 10:9-10
Where is repentance in that?
Salvation is by grace through faith

ALL these verses tell you that you have to believe that Jesus is the Son of God. If you believe you will have Salvation. A heathen can and does repent from his heathen ways and does not get salvation unless he believes in Jesus. When you are in Christ and He is in you, You will repent. You will not want to do all those things that you used to do that were so sinful. Thereby after you believed you were saved and then you did repent in that order.

 

[Andry]

I personally believe in keeping the law, all 613 commandments. The law is perfect, holy, and good and defines how humans should live, according to God....

I don't. And nope, the law was never there to show you how you should live, but to show how you couldn't live. It was not there to show you how you could make it right with God, rather to show you how you couldn't make it right with God.

For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. Heb 8:7

Ergo, there was a better way.

 

[jbearnolimits]

Read John 3:15
Where is repentance in that?
Salvation is by grace through faith

Read John 3:16
Where is repentance in that?
Salvation is by grace through faith

Read John 5:24
Where is repentance in that?
Salvation is by grace through faith

Read Romans 10:9-10
Where is repentance in that?
Salvation is by grace through faith

ALL these verses tell you that you have to believe that Jesus is the Son of God. If you believe you will have Salvation. A heathen can and does repent from his heathen ways and does not get salvation unless he believes in Jesus. When you are in Christ and He is in you, You will repent. You will not want to do all those things that you used to do that were so sinful. Thereby after you believed you were saved and then you did repent in that order.

Here are a few verses you may have forgotten about. These are not all of the verses that show repentance is needed for salvation by the way. Pay close attention to 2 Corinthians 7:10, and Acts 2:38 because they show that repentance is before salvation.

By the way, repentance is an act of faith. So yes, when you repent you are acting in faith...so by grace you are saved through faith. Without repentance your faith is dead.

Matthew 3:2

And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 4:17

From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 9:13

But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Matthew 11:20

Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:

Luke 13:3

I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luke 24:47

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 2:38

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 3:19

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

Acts 17:30

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Acts 26:20

But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

2 Corinthians 7:10

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Revelation 2:5

Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

 

[fozzy]

John 14:15 says If we love Him, we'll keep His commandments.

The laws were/are ceremonial (not necessary now), moral (the 10), health (better physically when we do), and civil (Israel's government).

The 10 Commandments are also in the NT - they're just not all listed together. Plus the two greatest commandments are in the OT. But to "love others as yourself" isn't listed with the 10. Yeshua was ask what's the greatest commandments in the law? "in the law".

I'm concerned when the teaching is His grace makes it where repentance isn't necessary after salvation. I know it was a different dispensation but when Adam and Eve sinned, they were still Yahweh's children but they were in a different spiritual position - among other things. They lost territory. Of course Yeshua's sacrifice was/is for all our sins. Repentance for believers is in Scripture such as The Lord's Prayer, before we take communion and Rev 3 includes "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; ...v19 "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." I'm not ignoring His grace, I'm able to repent and be forgiven - because of His grace.

It really puzzles me why a believer would have a problem repenting?

Law and grace work together imo. Yahweh's laws give us directions for our lives while His grace enables to do what He desires of us. We also realize that we've really got to have Yahweh's help to keep His Word and He knows the intents of our hearts (Heb 4:12), shortcomings, etc. - and keeps us as His children - that's all about His grace and mercy.

Every time the word commandment is used in the NT it is not a license to see the Decalogue or the ceremonial law. The word commandment simply means a command and in John 14 Jesus himself is speaking and saying that we need to keep his commandments. And if we go down to verse 23 this becomes obvious -

'If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.' John 14:23,24

Jesus made many commands during his ministry like:

- the time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent and believe the gospel Mark 1:15
- according to your faith be it unto you Matt 9:29
- if you can believe all things are possible to him that believes Mark 9:23
- that you love one another even as I have loved you John 13:34
- love the Lord thy God with all your heart, soul and mind and love your neighbor as yourself Matt 22:37,39

So we begin to see a pattern of NT commands that revolve around Faith and Love. John the beloved disciple talked about commandment keeping more that any of the disciples and he said the same thing.

'And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.' 1John 3:23,24

Here we see that John's understanding of commandment keeping was belief and love so your application of the Decalogue to John 14 is completely in error.

 

[fozzy]

Here is what you fail to understand. The law is based on love. When you love, you will naturally keep the law. This is why we need to walk in the spirit. Because our flesh does not have the love of God. Which is why we could never keep it in our flesh.

I like what I see others saying here. Because repentance is indeed a requirement for salvation. But there are those who do not understand what repentance is.

Repentance is not simply trusting Jesus. It is also turning from sin. We would not know what sin is except the law tells us. Paul makes this very clear.

A gospel that says trust in the work that Jesus has done, without saying that we need repentance is a false gospel and will send people to Hell.

No one is saying that repentance is not part of the gospel. Jesus himself said repent, and believe the gospel.

Those who fail to see the gospel as the perfect, finished and complete work of Jesus Christ will have to save themselves because they do not believe that Jesus has done it. The gospel is not believe in Jesus and you will be saved. This does not see Christ's work as finished or complete. The gospel is believe in Jesus because you have already been saved, past tense, 2000 years ago. Jesus saved us before we were born, before we did anything good or bad and he offers this Salvation to all as a free gift.

 

[fozzy]

I don't. And nope, the law was never there to show you how you should live, but to show how you couldn't live. It was not there to show you how you could make it right with God, rather to show you how you couldn't make it right with God.

For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. Heb 8:7

Ergo, there was a better way.

Amen. Most have this idea that if the Jews had just worked harder or been more faithful they would have been able to keep the old covenant. This is a delusion. The one's who keep the old covenant the best end up like the scribes and Pharisees and commit the unpardonable sin.

The reason it was given by God was to show us what terrible sinners we are and the complete impossibility of ever keeping it. This realization should lead us to the faith of Jesus and his promise to make us righteous apart from the law.

 

[MWood]

Here are a few verses you may have forgotten about. These are not all of the verses that show repentance is needed for salvation by the way. Pay close attention to 2 Corinthians 7:10, and Acts 2:38 because they show that repentance is before salvation.

By the way, repentance is an act of faith. So yes, when you repent you are acting in faith...so by grace you are saved through faith. Without repentance your faith is dead.

Matthew 3:2

And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 4:17

From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 9:13

But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Matthew 11:20

Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:

Luke 13:3

I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luke 24:47

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 2:38

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 3:19

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

Acts 17:30

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Acts 26:20

But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

2 Corinthians 7:10

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Revelation 2:5

Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Yes the Bible has the word repent, repented, repentance in a lot of the scriptures. But, the point is, you will not receive salvation until you believe that Jesus is the Son of God, whether you repent or not. Your salvation is strictly dependent on your belief alone. Nothing else needs to be done. I say this because of the scriptures that I posted above. If you add repentance, water baptism, saying the sinners prayer, or more, Then you are adding to the Word of God. Nowhere in those scriptures do you see anything other than "Believe".

As I said before, after you have come to the knowledge of Jesus, and you believe that He is the Son of God, and you believe with your heart in His death, burial, and resurrection You WILL repent. You will be filled with the Holy Spirit and you can't help but to repent. If you backslide...You are feeding the bad dog and not the good dog. But, you are forgiven. Your sins are covered by the Blood on the Cross.