Addressing Heretical Application of the Trinity Doctrine
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
he-man,
1. John 1:1: says that in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God.
This shows the son of God's divinity in the beginning with God at creation for God has no beginning or ending. For those who believe God was not divine and not God at all are proven wrong by the fact that this verse says he was God no matter what time frame they want to put it on.
John 1:14: the word became flesh and dwelt among men. The word becoming flesh is not because he was intended to be only human, but it does imply he was of a different nature which was deity.
Romans 8:3: God sent his son in the likeness of flesh. This shows a different nature and the plan of redemption with the Godhead in one accord.
Hebrews 2:16 verily he took on not the nature of angels but of men. Verse 17 explains that he had to take on the nature of man to identify with him. Not taking on the nature of angels implies that he was deity and could of taken on the nature of angels but even the angels are looking on today in awe and wonderment about God's plan of redemption of man so their would be no benefit of him being like them. There is nowhere in scripture that says the Son and the Holy Spirit are diminished Gods. They operate in one accord of the same mind equally in their respective responsibilities.
2. When Jesus was baptized the father spoke and the Holy Spirit was present in the form of a dove. 1 John talks about the all three bearing record in the earth, and heaven.
This shows the God head once again and it has nothing about being inferior but absolute unity.
3. Humans don't pre-exist and this is true.
Christ existing before as the foundation of the plan of God is true because he was not Christ until he was born on this earth.
Paul said in 1 Corinthians 10:4 that Christ was the rock that they drank from. This drink was not the actual water for a person is not water. Christ was the spiritual drink of which it can be said prophetically of Christ work on the cross. However, Jesus said, Before Abraham was I am. Both of these connotations both express and imply the existence of Jesus before his time as Messiah as an entity though not as Christ. He was yahweh for he was the Lord of salvation for Israel which had a prophetic aspect as well to the time of the cross.
4. Christ was eternal but not as Christ for he was God, Yahweh. As I said before the bible does not use the word trinity but compound unity of the 3 in 1 is everywhere and the plural Elohim is used thousands of times.
5. You believe what Christadelphians if you believe in Jesus being human and that has nothing to do with JW's, In any case I just used it as a point of reference for the belief not a tearing down of a denomination.
As far as Isaiah that was directly to the nation of Israel in the davidic covenant and they were backslidden and had to do the commandments in order to be blessed and have the kingdom on earth. Jesus preached this message of the KoH and the jews rejected it.
As far as the mercies of David and the everlasting covenant are concerned we will be a part of that in the coming kingdom even though Israel will be at the head of the nations. Timothy says to the church if we suffer, we shall reign. Israel were to obey God and they would be victorious. The church has to endure suffering and tribulation and they shall reign.
The callings of Israel and the church are different and yes we do have the mercies of David in the aspect of grace as well as the covenant with Abraham. We partake because of the finished work of Christ on the cross and his resurrection of a risen Lord and that is our focus of faith and not the law of Moses like in Isaiah's day and the church is not to be backslidden. I am also for unity and their is no malice or hatred in my heart. The bible says owe no man anything but love and I love you in the Lord. Jerry kelso
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he-man
he-man
That is not what Walter Tyndales Bible says:
The Gospel of St. John John 1:1 page 119 TYNDALES BIBLE
1:1 In the beginning was that word, and that word was with god: and god was that word. 1:2 The same was in the beginning with god.
1:3 All things were made by it, and without it was made no thing, that made was. 1:18 No man saw god at any time. The only begotten son, which is in the father’s bosom, hath declared him.
Co 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto dieties, we know that a diety is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, on behalf of whom are all things, and on behalf of whom we live.
This particular God—the God of Israel—is holy, that is, He alone is transcendentally different, superior, and separate. John W. Ritenbaugh
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he-man
he-man
Jn 1:1In the beginning was that word, and that word was with god: and god was that word
THE NEW TESTAMENT W TYNDALE Bible
SUMMARY
In the New Testament the eternity and divinity of the Son and the Holy Spirit were indicated clearly enough, but nowhere formally declared. There was no formal doctrine about Christ's origin, nature, and relation to the Father and to the Holy Spirit. There was no formal doctrine about a triune God.
Origen rejected the Apologists two-stage theory and maintained the eternal generation of the Son. But to reconcile this with a strict monotheism, he resorted to another philosophical framework, a Platonic hierarchical framework, and ended up by making the Son and the Holy Spirit not precisely creatures but 'diminished gods,' inferior to the Father who alone was God in the strict sense.
Post Nicene Period, The Triune God
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
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he-man
he-man
The Gospel of St. John John 1:1 page 119 TYNDALES BIBLE
1:1 In the beginning was that word, and that word was with god: and god was that word. 1:2 The same was in the beginning with god.
1:3 All things were made by it, and without it was made no thing, that made was. 1:18 No man saw god at any time. The only begotten son, which is in the father’s bosom, hath declared him.
Co 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto dieties, we know that a diety is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, on behalf of whom are all things, and on behalf of whom we live.
Heb 1:8 But to the Son the throne, of your God, is for ever and ever: and the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
In the New Testament the eternity and divinity of the Son and the Holy Spirit were indicated clearly enough, but nowhere formally declared. There was no formal doctrine about Christ's origin, nature, and relation to the Father and to the Holy Spirit. There was no formal doctrine about a triune God.
Origen rejected the Apologists two-stage theory and maintained the eternal generation of the Son. But to reconcile this with a strict monotheism, he resorted to another philosophical framework, a Platonic hierarchical framework, and ended up by making the Son and the Holy Spirit not precisely creatures but 'diminished gods,' inferior to the Father who alone was God in the strict sense.
Post Nicene Period, The Triune God
Judges 2:10 This particular God—the God of Israel—is holy, that is, He alone is transcendentally different, superior, and separate. John W. Ritenbaugh
After that whole generation had been gathered to their ancestors, another generation grew up who knew neither the Lord nor what he had done for Israel.
Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
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he-man
he-man
Then go to the proper place to discuss JW'; CHRISTADELPHIANS, MORMONS, etc. I was warned not to discuss other religions in this forum. There is a proper place to discuss other religions. In the meantime:
156 αιτει αιτία reason, cause, motive, ground, causation, occasion, sake
Mithraism was an ancient mystery religion prominent from the 1st century BCE to the 5th century CE. It was based on worship of the god Mithras and derives from the Persian and Indic god Mithra and other Zoroastrian deities.
Mithraism apparently originated in the Eastern Mediterranean around the first or second centuries BC. It was practiced in the Roman Empire since the first century BC, and reached its apogee around the third through fourth centuries AD, when it was very popular among the Roman soldiers. Mithraism disappeared from overt practice after the Theodosian decree of AD 391 banned all pagan rites, and it apparently became extinct thereafter.
http://www.summit.org/resources/essays/show_essay.php/?essay_id=29
David Ulansey, The Cosmic Mysteries of Mithras
http://www.faculty.umb.edu/gary_zab...c/Pythagoras, Empedocles, Plato/Mithraism.htm
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraic_mysteries
It was noted above that the Augustinian approach was open to the danger of Modalism, and Harnack maintained 'that Augustine only gets beyond Modalism by the mere assertion that he does not wish to be a Modalist, and by the aid of ingenious distinctions between different ideas.'
It has been said that for Augustine 'the Three are real or subsistent relations,'21 'and relations that are not identical with the substance or nature, since they are not something absolute.'
the Prophet Mohammed in the Seventh Century
could suppose that the Christians were polytheists,
having, besides God, a Goddess Mary and her
Son, yet another God.'
From Pagan mythology Christianity had unconsciously
taken over many a wonderful story
and had incorporated it into the life of Jesus:
from Mithraism the tale of the birth in the cave
and the adoration of the shepherds; from Adonisworship
the tale of the Star in the East; from Dionysos-worship the tale of the turning of water
into wine; and so forth. From Mithraism had
come the use of bell, candle, and holy water;I the
employment of catacombs; the selection of the
Vatican Mount as the sacred site; and many
another usage. The idea of being washed in
the blood of the lamb came from Mithraism and
other pagan faiths; and being "born again" is an
expression borrowed from these and from Isisworship,
there being a record of a man who was
initiated into the Isis mysteries, and so "born
again." Encyc. Brit., vol. xvii., p. 624.
Apuleius, Metamorphoses, xi. i6.
CHRISTIANITY AS STATE RELIGION
Koran: Sura v. 116.
The Gospel of St. John John 1:1 page 119 TYNDALES BIBLE
1:1 In the beginning was that word, and that word was with god: and god was that word. 1:2 The same was in the beginning with god.
1:3 All things were made by it, and without it was made no thing, that made was. 1:18 No man saw god at any time. The only begotten son, which is in the father’s bosom, hath declared him.
Co 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto dieties, we know that a diety is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, on behalf of whom are all things, and on behalf of whom we live.
Heb 1:8 But to the Son the throne, of your God, is for ever and ever: and the
scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
In the New Testament the eternity and divinity of the Son and the Holy Spirit were indicated clearly enough, but nowhere formally declared. There was no formal doctrine about Christ's origin, nature, and relation to the Father and to the Holy Spirit. There was no formal doctrine about a triune God.
Origen rejected the Apologists two-stage theory and maintained the eternal generation of the Son. But to reconcile this with a strict monotheism, he resorted to another philosophical framework, a Platonic hierarchical framework, and ended up by making the Son and the Holy Spirit not precisely creatures but 'diminished gods,' inferior to the Father who alone was God in the strict sense.
Post Nicene Period, The Triune God
Judges 2:10 This particular God—the God of Israel—is holy, that is, He alone is transcendentally different, superior, and separate. John W. Ritenbaugh
After that whole generation had been gathered to their ancestors, another generation grew up who knew neither the Lord nor what he had done for Israel.
Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
he-man,
1. You are not saying anything new and I already showed the scriptures in Hebrew and Genesis and others that show compound unity and explained why God is one scriptures and in the whole of scriptures on this subject your theory is wrong.
You can quote Tyndale all you want but it doesn't harmonize with the original manuscripts. The NIV makes more sense on this point than what appears to be what Tyndale is saying and I don't usually agree with everything the NIV says.
Origen wasn't perfect about his position in every facet. You can say there was no eternal generation of the son as far as his human self and role for he was not born until the accepted time of a woman made under the law. Galatians 4:4.
He did exist as God in the old testament as can be seen in creation, in his visit Abraham and directing Israel throughout the old testament. Now you may think it is impossible for him to be an entity especially like God who is immortal and become a human being. This is why the kenosis of Christ is important to understand and had to be done away with for nothing is impossible with God.
Diminished Gods is ridiculous and Hebrews 1:9-10 explains this and shows compound unity in the Godhead unity and proves that there is nothing inferior when it comes to the subjection of the son to the Father.
Jesus is called the Word and he was with God the father and he was the Word who was God as well as the father. He was also Yahweh in the old testament. Read the book of Joshua which means savior.
There are scriptures that are singular in number about God and then there are plurals as in more than one. They both cannot be reconciled unless the context is understood properly.
The problem with this thinking is called tunnel vision and those who believe that Christ was not deity etc have it as well as many who are staunch extreme Calvinists who give one meaning to words such as eternal life to mean that one cannot lose their salvation. Eternal life is an eternal substance and will always be whether one accepts or rejects Christ or accepts Christ and then changes masters. It is the same way with those who don't want to believe there is more than one entity in the God head because of the one God scriptures.
The only way you could disprove is to try and disprove compound unity and the plural of Elohim in scripture. It can't be done.
Jerry kelso
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he-man
he-man
Oh? Really? I thought immortality meant you can never die? Didn't Jesus DIE? 1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
At first the Christian Faith was not Trinitarian. . It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the New Testament and other early Christian writings. The Encyclopedia of Religion And Ethics.
Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity. The Encyclopedia of Religion[size-4] The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the Old Testament. . . "is not. . . directly and immediately the word of God."[/size] The New Catholic Encyclopedia There is no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a Trinity within the Godhead. . . Even to see in the Old Testament suggestions or foreshadowings or 'veiled signs' of the trinity of persons, is to go beyond the words and intent of the sacred writers. Edmund Fortman The "Triune God"
Ge 1:1 In the beginning God formed the firmament and the land. Jn 1:1 In the beginning was that word, and that word was with god: and god was that word 1:2 The same was in the beginning with god. THE NEW TESTAMENT W TYNDALE Bible
He created the world by the word of His mouth (Ps. xxxiii. 6, 9). Natural sequences are His work (Jer. v. 22, 24; Ps. lxxiv. 15-17). He maintains the order of nature (Ps. cxlvii. 8-9, 16-18; Neh. ix. 6). He does not need the offerings of men, because "the earth is the Lord's and the fulness thereof" (Ps. xxiv. 1, 4, 7-13; compare Isa. i. 11; Jer. vii. 21-23; Micah vi. 6-8).
Nothing is affirmed of His substantial nature. The phrase "spirit of God" ("rua? Elohim") merely describes the divine energy, and is not to be taken as equivalent to the phrase "God is a spirit," viz., an assertion concerning His incorporeality (Zech. iv. 6; Num. xiv. 22; Isa. xl. 13). He can not, however, be likened to any thing (Ex. xx. 4-5; Isa. xl. 18) or to any person (Jer. x. 6-7). No form is seen when God speaks (Deut. iv. 15)
Duh? The word ἐκένωσεν is used in Philippians 2:7, "[Jesus] made himself nothing..." http://www.definitions.net/definition/kenosis Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, G2758 and the promise made of none effect: deprive of force, render vain, useless, of no effect, to make void void= Ρημ. καθιστώ άκυρο//αποβάλλω, εκκενώνω
empty= ρήμ. αδειάζω 11 καὶ that every tongue should confess that Yahshua Anointed is Master, to the glory of Elohim the Father.
9 Wherefore Elohim also hath highly exalted him, καὶ given him name which is above every name:
http://koine-bible.com/?wysijap=subscriptions
The word Elohim is the plural of El (or possibly Eloah) and is the first name of God given in the Old Testament: “In the beginning, God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth, (Gen. 1:1) The form of the word Elohim, with the ending -im, is plural and masculine, but the construction is usually singular, i.e. it governs a singular verb or adjective when referring to the Hebrew god, but reverts to its normal plural when used of heathen divinities (Psalms 96:5; 97:7). The results of Source Criticism first proposed two authors (or sources) for the Pentateuch supposedly distinguishable by the use of the terms Yahweh and Elohim. Two additional sources were later proposed as P for Priestly, and D for Deuteronomic resulting in the JEDP theory of authorship, most notably associated with German scholar Julius Wellhausen (1844-1918).
•JEDP Theory (basictheology.com)
•Pentateuchal Studies Today by Gordon Wenham (1996)
•The JEDP Theory from Wikipedia
http://www.theopedia.com/Elohim
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
he-man,
1. Immortality is of God alone says Timothy. God gives the saved immortality and the sinners receive immortality to live forever in wrath and the lake of fire.
Immortality with God is no beginning and no end and that includes Jesus deity for Revelation says he is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. This doesn't mean that he had a beginning as far as his deity but represents his birth to death as the Messiah. John 1:1 says in the beginning was the Word and the Word was God and the Word was with God. God has no beginning or ending as far as his deity. This was the reason for the kenosis of Christ or emptying of himself as the God-man.
2. Elohim is plural. When God said let us make man in our image he was referring to more than one person in the Godhead for angels had no part in creation as far as creating for they were created and cannot create such as God.
Our image would be singular of the same substance, but us is plural as in more than one God in the Godhead. It is not veiled one just has to carefully study it out and recognize the plain statements as well as the ones not so plain and collaborate with other scriptures on the subject. Psalms and Hebrews both harmonize with God the Father calling the Son God. There are two persons in these scriptures that back up the fact that they are God. The Father didn't grant the son deity as a human for that would be an oxymoron and this gives more credible evidence that Jesus was divine, everlasting and immortal, with no beginning or ending before he became the Messiah.
To make the argument that the construction of Elohim is singular is ridiculous and improper hermeneutics based on not rightly dividing the word.
3. While I don't agree with everything with Catholic teaching they had much of doctrine correct but ended up later to mix heavily men's traditions in with the truth just like the scribes and pharisees.
4. He created the world by the word of his mouth. In Hebrews 11 says that he created the world by faith. He didn't need faith but faith as in believing. Throughout the old testament God the father is seen as the architect of the plan and the son who was Yahweh was the executor of the plan and the Holy Spirit personalize the plan of helps and the plan was redemption.
5. The Spirit can be lied to as in Acts 5 and Jesus said anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven and he brooded or hovered literally over the waters in Genesis 1:1 and he is the comforter and confidante for the Christian as Jesus said who would bring back remembrance to the disciples things Jesus said about what transpired etc. The Spirit can speak mysteries according to the apostle Paul. To say that the Spirit is just the Spirit of God and not a real entity is a metaphorical mess and takes the reality out of the meaning of a person that has roles and functions that he performs. It also is reminiscent of the falsehood of humanistic illusion of metaphysical belief.
6. I would like to know why you want to believe that Jesus was only human and not deity. Jerry Kelso
5.
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he-man
he-man
Before the Nicene Creed: Since Christianity is a religion derived from Judaism, it should not be a surprise that from the beginning it has been adamantly monotheistic. The early 2nd century Apologists like Justin Martyr rejected Marcionite and Gnostic dualism wholeheartedly and asserted the oneness of God in strong, almost Platonistic language.
Christ himself revealed the coming Spirit of God who also possessed divine attributes and too was spoken of as distinct from the Father. These statements of Jesus, along with the teaching of the epistles of Paul and John, presented a unique theological challenge to the early Christians. Speaking of Trinitarianism in the ante-Nicene period is somewhat anachronistic, since the word Trinity (Lat. trinitas) was first coined by the Latin father Tertullian in the 2nd century, and the Trinitarian doctrine was not solidified as dogma until the early 4th century. However, Roger Olson reminds us that "Christian belief in God as triune did not arise in the fourth century with Roman emporer Constantine and the Christian bishops that he dominated. Belief that it arose then as part of a vague paganizing or Hellenizing of Christianity is a caricature often promoted . Roger Olson, ]u]The Mosaic of Christian Belief,[/u] p. 135
The name Elohim is unique to Hebraic thinking, it occurs only in Hebrew and in no other ancient Semitic language. The masculine plural ending does not mean gods when referring to the true God of Israel, since the name is mainly used with singular verb forms and with adjectives and pronouns in the singular (e.g. see Gen. 1:26). The word Elohim is the plural of El (or possibly Eloah) and is the first name of God given in the Old Testament: “In the beginning, God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth, (Gen. 1:1) The form of the word Elohim, with the ending -im, is plural and masculine, but the construction is usually singular, , i.e. it governs a singular verb or adjective when referring to the Hebrew god, but reverts to its normal plural when used of heathen divinities (Psalms 96:5; 97:7). In a view common among both secular scholars and polytheists, the word's plurality is seen as reflective of an early Judaic polytheism. Originally meaning "the gods", or the "sons of El," the supreme being, the word may have been singularized by later monotheist priests who sought to replace worship of the many gods with their own patron god YHWH alone.
He created the world by the word of His mouth (Ps. xxxiii. 6, 9). Natural sequences are His work (Jer. v. 22, 24; Ps. lxxiv. 15-17). He maintains the order of nature (Ps. cxlvii. 8-9, 16-18; Neh. ix. 6). He does not need the offerings of men, because "the earth is the Lord's and the fulness thereof" (Ps. xxiv. 1, 4, 7-13; compare Isa. i. 11; Jer. vii. 21-23; Micah vi. 6-8).
Nothing is affirmed of His substantial nature. The phrase "spirit of God" ("rua? Elohim") merely describes the divine energy, and is not to be taken as equivalent to the phrase "God is a spirit," viz., an assertion concerning His incorporeality (Zech. iv. 6; Num. xiv. 22; Isa. xl. 13). He can not, however, be likened to any thing (Ex. xx. 4-5; Isa. xl. 18) or to any person (Jer. x. 6-7). No form is seen when God speaks (Deut. iv. 15) http://www.theopedia.com/Elohim
Nothing is affirmed of His substantial nature. The phrase "spirit of God" ("rua? Elohim") merely describes the divine energy, and is not to be taken as equivalent to the phrase "God is a spirit," viz., an assertion concerning His incorporeality (Zech. iv. 6; Num. xiv. 22; Isa. xl. 13). He can not, however, be likened to any thing (Ex. xx. 4-5; Isa. xl. 18) or to any person (Jer. x. 6-7). No form is seen when God speaks (Deut. iv. 15)
Huh? Elohim is plural for angels, whom GOD commanded to help with the creation, not a mortal man like Jesus. Isa 54:16 Lo, I--I have prepared an artisan, Blowing on a fire of coals, And bringing out an instrument for his work, And I have prepared a destroyer [angel of the Lord] to destroy.
Exo 14:19 And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:
Num 22:31 Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face.
He was only human when God created him as a mortal, without immortality. Anyone who has immortality cannot die, as Jesus did as a mortal. People do not have immortality in the second death. 2Th 1:9 who shall suffer justice--destruction age-during--from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
he-man,
1. We can debate early church fathers all day and it is a waste. We can give theological experts on both sides of the coin as far as hermeneutical translators interpretation and probably run into a stalemate.
2. The truth is found in the scripture and the scriptures show that the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are three separate persons in the Godhead that are one in perfect unity at all times. The Father is called God and the Son is called God and the Holy Spirit is called God. God the Father talked to God the son not himself. The Holy Spirit can be lied to and speak, comfort lead, guide and direct. They are never shown as 3 offices with just one person doing all three. They don't imply that either. Oneness doctrine is not scriptural or logical because it prohibits compound unity. There are also no references of him being a manifestation.
3. Jesus was hungry and suffered in all ways like men so he could be a true mediator sympathetic to men and he had to be divine so he could uphold the dignity of the Godhead and be a true witness of the Godhead in the mediation process. If you believe that Christ wasn't divine because he died you must be a Christadelphianism or something to that effect because they believe Jesus was only human and not deity. God said he had a body prepared for him and it was human and when Christ died his divine nature didn't die because his spirit lived on. You could say that he died as the God man for that is what he was. The bible says that God had prepared a body for him and Jesus said he commended his Spirit to God the father. This means that his spirit had to leave for his physical body to die otherwise he wouldn't have died. Of course his spirit didn't die but his body had to so it could be resurrected and be the first fruits of the resurrection.
4. Belief in the triune God is believing in Monotheism of One God. But the context is shown in compound unity of 3 persons unified in one perfect harmony which is shown throughout the scriptures.
Now tell me what is your motive to prove that there is only 1 person in the Godhead. He is unified with himself and I wouldn't deny that but he created the family in creation and the body of Christ is all about compound unity the same as God the father to God the son. The roles are separate and distinct just like the two separate persons known as the father and the son. Being manifestations would be impersonal according to the tenor of scripture. So what is your real motive to show just one God in the Godhead or that Jesus was just only human or whatever you really believe? Be plain for a change. Jerry kelso
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he-man
he-man
At least you have revealed the truth and that is the truth is found in the scripture and the scriptures show that the Father is neither person or originated, and the Son was created by God at his birth from his mother, and was separate person and the Holy Spirit is not a person, it is the power that comes from the Father.
It has been made VERY Clear to you that the topic is to be discussed under another thread. SO STOP disobeying the RULES> I am not associated with any organized group, other than what the disciples taught in the scriptures through Jesus. Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
All spirits return to God, as did the breath of life from Jesus, ‘Mr 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus shouted for help with a great voice, Eloi, Eloi, which is, being interpreted, "My God why are you so far from helping me?" 37 And letting go in a great voice, Jesus breathed out. Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
The application of this old pagan conception of a Trinity to Christian theology was made possible by the recognition of the Holy Spirit as the required third "Person," co-equal with the other " Person" The idea of the Holy Spirit, as an emanation from God, had been known to the Jews from early times; but the Hebrew word which was used was roach, literally meaning "wind" or "breath of Life," this being translated into Greek as PNEUMA, which has precisely that significance, the action of the Spirit being described theologically as "pneumatic."
Thus, in the Book of Genesis, where it is related that God breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath
of life, the reference is to this Spirit, which had also moved upon the face of the waters in the earlier act of creation; and Job' speaks of the Spirit of God as being in his nostrils, and says: "The
Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life."
Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon, and nowhere in the New Testament does the word " Trinity" appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord; and the origin of the conception is entirely pagan.
The early Christians, however, did not at first think of applying the idea to their own faith. They paid their devotions to God the Father and to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and they recognised the mysterious and undefined existence of the Holy Spirit; but there was no thought of these three being an actual Trinity, co-equal and united in One, and the Apostles' Creed, which is the earliest of the formulated articles of Christian faith, does not mention it. Aristotle, On the Heavens, I.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: grace is the gift of God.
Listen to my answer for a change: The scriptures show that the Father is neither person nor originated. and the Son was created by God at his birth from his mother, and was separate person and the Holy Spirit is not a person, it is the power that comes from the Father.
It is, indeed, derogatory to speak of the divine Being as "He" or " Him " ; for there is an indication of sex in the word, and in the spiritual sphere there is no such thing. God, in fact, as the scriptures say, is Spirit, anomni present, omnipotent, omni percipient All-in-All, completely incomprehensible to the mere reason, but in some degree intelligible to spiritual thought which has detached itself from material concepts. It is really quite vain, therefore, to exercise the mind as to whether He is Three in One, or Many in One, or simply One. He transcends numbers, eludes intellectual divisions or unification, and rises as far above the definitions implied in Polytheism or Monotheism as infinity is above finiteness. In a spiritual sense He is Everything, He is the Whole; and therefore He can be no more than One, and no less than all the possible fractions of One.
He is personal inasmuch as He pervades each one of us; and He is impersonal in as much as he pervades everything. Being beyond human ideas of bulk, and outside our three-dimensional conception of position. [Wiegell]
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
At least you have revealed the truth and that is the truth is found in the scripture and the scriptures show that the Father is neither person or originated, and the Son was created by God at his birth from his mother, and was separate person and the Holy Spirit is not a person, it is the power that comes from the Father. It has been made VERY Clear to you that the topic is to be discussed under another thread. SO STOP disobeying the RULES> I am not associated with any organized group, other than what the disciples taught in the scriptures through Jesus. Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. All spirits return to God, as did the breath of life from Jesus, ‘Mr 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus shouted for help with a great voice, Eloi, Eloi, which is, being interpreted, "My God why are you so far from helping me?" 37 And letting go in a great voice, Jesus breathed out. Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. The application of this old pagan conception of a Trinity to Christian theology was made possible by the recognition of the Holy Spirit as the required third "Person," co-equal with the other " Person" The idea of the Holy Spirit, as an emanation from God, had been known to the Jews from early times; but the Hebrew word which was used was roach, literally meaning "wind" or "breath of Life," this being translated into Greek as PNEUMA, which has precisely that significance, the action of the Spirit being described theologically as "pneumatic."
Thus, in the Book of Genesis, where it is related that God breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath
of life, the reference is to this Spirit, which had also moved upon the face of the waters in the earlier act of creation; and Job' speaks of the Spirit of God as being in his nostrils, and says: "The
Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life." Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon, and nowhere in the New Testament does the word " Trinity" appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord; and the origin of the conception is entirely pagan.
The early Christians, however, did not at first think of applying the idea to their own faith. They paid their devotions to God the Father and to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and they recognised the mysterious and undefined existence of the Holy Spirit; but there was no thought of these three being an actual Trinity, co-equal and united in One, and the Apostles' Creed, which is the earliest of the formulated articles of Christian faith, does not mention it. Aristotle, On the Heavens, I.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: grace is the gift of God. Listen to my answer for a change: The scriptures show that the Father is neither person nor originated. and the Son was created by God at his birth from his mother, and was separate person and the Holy Spirit is not a person, it is the power that comes from the Father.
It is, indeed, derogatory to speak of the divine Being as "He" or " Him " ; for there is an indication of sex in the word, and in the spiritual sphere there is no such thing. God, in fact, as the scriptures say, is Spirit, anomni present, omnipotent, omni percipient All-in-All, completely incomprehensible to the mere reason, but in some degree intelligible to spiritual thought which has detached itself from material concepts. It is really quite vain, therefore, to exercise the mind as to whether He is Three in One, or Many in One, or simply One. He transcends numbers, eludes intellectual divisions or unification, and rises as far above the definitions implied in Polytheism or Monotheism as infinity is above finiteness. In a spiritual sense He is Everything, He is the Whole; and therefore He can be no more than One, and no less than all the possible fractions of One.
He is personal inasmuch as He pervades each one of us; and He is impersonal in as much as he pervades everything. Being beyond human ideas of bulk, and outside our three-dimensional conception of position. [Wiegell]
he-man,
I am sorry to say you must be a Christadelphian but what you espoused in some of your comments is an inference to that belief.
1. God can talk and so can a person and many other things that humans do because he created us in his image. Your comments make God sound like a nothingness and impersonal. He made us like him except we are finite and he is infinite and of a different substance for he is completely spirit.
2. If you believe that Jesus didn't pre-exist before his birth as Yahweh or God before this is why you don't believe he is deity and don't believe that he was the God-man.
3. The Holy Spirit speaks and comforts and leads, guides and directs etc. and is called God. He is referred to as a person.
4. Jesus commended or gave up his human spirit to the Lord in death. He was resurrected with a new body which was his physical body for spirit doesn't have flesh or bones. He was the God man and to say this proves he was never deity is like saying man is deity because he has a spirit.
5. The spirit brooding over the waters is not an emanation unless you treat the scriptures concerning the Spirit as metaphorical instead of literal action of a person.
Christ could not do anything without his father and the anointing of the Holy Spirit and his help. Christ said he would send a comforter to take his place.
The Spirit is seen as a person in the scriptures in the Godhead. I understand the thinking for he doesn't dwell within believers bodily.
The problem is that your whole content of what you said seems to believe that Christ was not deity because of everything couched in the context of his ministry on earth alone. Do you believe Christ was given deity and is now deity or not? If you do not then you won't believe that the Holy Spirit is a person of the Godhead.
6. Jesus never mentioned the word trinity but he did claim to be the Son of God and never denied being deity and this is why the jews were mad at him most for. The claim of the Son of God was not a son of God such as the angels or man are sometimes referred to for Christ didn't take the nature of angels on and he was not made a new creation or reborn of the spirit as in being saved.
7. Being derogatory of calling God he? That is ridiculous! I could say it is ridiculous because he made us in his image and why because we are just human and not a God.
The angels intermixed with the daughters of men and propagated and that is impossible of sex with men. Adam was created male and was the head of the woman for she came out of him and she sinned later on and Adam, the male was the fountainhead of the human race. Jesus who is deity is the head of the body and he was male and he was the God-man. The church is called he which is a male reference.
Now to say that it is ridiculous and degrading to call God he is not completely true or logical. He is infinite and is spirit and above us, etc. but to say it is completely degrading and ridiculous of calling him "he" is illogical nonsense.
8. All three positions whether oneness, christadelphianism or trinity can be right and possible within their context. But, the context of the scripture and reconciling all the scriptures together on the given subject and the tenor of scripture shows and teaches compound unity in human beings as substance of body, spirit and soul, individuals of more than one in harmony and unity as one in their relationships and the Godhead both which is also compound unity. One can dismiss these facts because of human logic but it doesn't hold water to the scriptures.
God can be one in three persons for they are totally united and never out of agreement with each other and they are deity and it is impossible for them to not be one in unity. So to say God can only be one in number as one being doesn't hold water.
When Jesus the son was talking to God the father was it the father talking to himself in a different body? The father is never referred to as a human or taking a role as a human or having the limitations of a human. So oneness seems to rely on manifestations which is impersonal. God is God and I wouldn't say he couldn't do this anymore than he couldn't make a sinless human being to be the Messiah. However, redemption took a sinless sacrifice of a spotless lamb and God in the form of man known as Jesus was the only blood that could have saved humanity and not a human being just because they were sinless for human beings are the mere creation and not the creator. Also, Jesus was the God man because he can be mediator to God having suffered the temptations of a human being though without sin. He is mediator to God because he is God and was the only one who knew God before his role as the son. This is why he is the true judge of righteousness etc.
Jesus is called God by God the father in Hebrews 1. This makes no sense if it is not true if he is not the God-man. It also makes no sense of the inferior subjection doctrine of the father over the son.
I am all for the glory of God being respected and not given to another but I also believe in the proper perspective of what the bible teaches in the plurality of the Godhead being one in unity and known as one God. We are all one in the body just as the Son was one with the Father. This is the oneness of the Godhead and it founded in compound unity. Jerry Kelso
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he-man
he-man
If Adam was first that precludes any pre-existence of Christ Jesus who died, God didn't, for God is immortal and Christ was a mortal until after his resurrection. Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
The Holy Spirit is NOT a PERSON, it is the power that emanates from God. It is an insult to speak of God as a person. What you say is A Common idiom for the purpose of showing that God will guide us spiritually.
After the image (kat' eikona). An allusion to Gen_1:26, Gen_1:28. The restoration of the image of God in us is gradual and progressive (2Co_3:18), but will be complete in the final result (Rom_8:29; 1Jo_3:2). [RWP]
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did design for, he also did appropriate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. That is A Common idiom for 'he is “first born from the dead” (Col_1:18), the Eldest Brother in this family of God’s sons' [RWP]
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having appropriated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
4309 proorizw design for, intend for, appropriate
That is your PRESUMPTUOUS opinion showing a lack of proper social reserve or modesty. 1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? The Holy Spirit is NOT a PERSON, it is the power that emanates from God. It is an insult to speak of God as a person. What you say is A Common idiom for the purpose of showing that God will guide us spiritually.
After the image (kat' eikona). An allusion to Gen_1:26, Gen_1:28. The restoration of the image of God in us is gradual and progressive (2Co_3:18), but will be complete in the final result (Rom_8:29; 1Jo_3:2). [RWP]
Rom 8:29 For whom he did design for, he also did appropriate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. That is A Common idiom for 'he is “first born from the dead” (Col_1:18), the Eldest Brother in this family of God’s sons' [RWP]
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Ever hear of the word ‘GOD’? God is infinite and is spirit and above us, etc.
What? You mean you do not know that angels cannot sin for they are immortal. Those were messengers of man, not angels of God. Your biased opinion is showing you up.
The church is a body or assembly of people and is not called ‘he’ or ‘she’ but could be called ‘it’. Jesus is the headstone of the ecclesia. 1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (kephale̅ tou Christou ho theos). Rather, God is the head of Christ, since kephale̅ is anarthrous and predicate. [RWP] 23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
The Spirit of God makes his home (oikei) in us, not in temples made with hands (Act_7:48; Act_17:24). [RWP]
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
he-man,
1. Jesus was begotten before his role as the Messiah according to the Psalmist. At the same time he did not physically exist as Christ the Messiah until he was conceived of the Holy Spirit who is called God and proving that he was deity and he was begotten of the father. So all three are seen in the incarnation. Jesus said he was before Abraham. His pre-existence was as Yahweh as can be seen in the types and shadows of the whole essence of the book of Joshua which means Savior and going into the promise land etc. So he was before Adam for he was in creation along with his God, God the father for the father called him God in Hebrews 1:8,9 and in verse 10 he was called Lord who laid the foundation of the earth. How much plainer can it be?
2. The Holy Spirit is not an emanation even though I understand how you could come to that conclusion.
John calls him the comforter which is a helper and denotes a real entity not an emanation. John 16:7; Christ calls the Holy Spirit of the male gender: but If I (Christ) depart, I (Christ) will send him (Holy Spirit) unto you. Verse 8 says and and when he (Holy Spirit) is come, he (Holy Spirit) will reprove the world of sin and of righteousness and of judgement. Verse 13: Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into truth is come, he will guide you into all truth, for he shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. An emanation does not speak and show things as in a physical sense. In verse 13 alone he is used 7 times to speak of the Holy Spirit. Just like God and his perfect number.
3. You say it is insulting to call or refer to God as a person. I can understand because God made man and he is above us. But he made us in his image which is more than just mere attributes. Also, if the Spirit of God is the personal spirit of the father and he shouldn't be referred to as a person then why does the scripture call him a he? You do know you contradict yourself as well as the scriptures.
4. I have no presumptuous opinion we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is. The firstborn from the dead refers to Christ as Messiah and the resurrection and the life and not his actual pre-existence as Yahweh. Your problem is that you don't separate the two.
5. The churches goal is to become a perfect man according to Paul in Ephesians 4:13; Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. Christ is referred to as he for he was a man and it is his body. The church of Corinth was espoused by Paul as a bride and in Revelation the church will be a part of the Holy City, the new Jerusalem as the Bride. What bible do you read?
6. The Holy Spirit is the temple not made with hands but this does not mean he is not a person or a separate entity than the Father or the Son either one. Now I have given you the scriptures which show the deity as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit and it is up to you to believe or not. But it is clear that the Scriptures do call all them deity and that they are separate entities. Jerry Kelso
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