Addressing Heretical Application of the Trinity Doctrine

[jerry kelso]

The text, therefore, should be read: which from the beginning of the world had been hidden in God who created all things. [CLARKE]
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God; 1Co 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
My advice for you would be Hosea 10:12 Sow for yourselves righteousness; Reap in mercy; Break up your fallow ground, For it is time to seek the LORD, Till He comes and rains righteousness on you.
Col 1:16 That in Christ all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, all things have been created for him and on behalf of him. 17 He is in front of all things, and in him all things stand together. :18 And he is the head of the body, the assembly: who is a beginning of the firstborn from the dead; that among all he might be first.
by him — rather as Greek, “in Him” as the conditional element, and is a different fact from the present one [Alford]
Isa 40:28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God,Jehovah, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Mat 1:16 And Jacob γεννάω Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was γεννάω Jesus, who is called Christ.
G1080 γεννάω - bear, beget, be born.
1 Peter 2:13 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people.
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God Jehovah, He that created the heavens, and stretched them out; He that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

he-man,
Why do you keep circling the wagons with a context that only proves true by the way you hermeneutically divide it and within itself and leave out the other scriptures and their contexts that say Jesus is God.
You keep avoiding to explain Hebrews 1:8-9 that is a plain statement of fact and context that God the Father calls the Son God and vice versa and the Son is called God who formed the earth which shows his pre-existence.
Your constant ignoring of the truth of Hebrews 1:8-9 is beginning to sound like a tinkling cymbal.
You can quote Hebrew or Greek but you can't overcome plain english and that is when one should know they are going overboard hermeneutically and in using different words of translation that give different meaning. It is wrongly dividing the word. If you cannot answer to Hebrews 1:8-9 then you don't need to post anymore. I cannot make you quit posting but you ought to because you are just denying the truth. I don't say that being mean or any of the sort but of common sense.
If you can explain away Hebrews 1:8-9 with a clear conscience go ahead. Remember this that the Son was called God by the Father and vise versa. This shows his deity whether pre-existence or given by the Father to his Son. So if you don't believe in the Son being deity at all you are wrong and if you believe he has received deity from the father then you would still be wrong because the Son is called God who formed the earth. So please avoid the unavoidable and explain Hebrews 1:8-9. Jerry Kelso

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Am guessing it is like facebook or all social media; if one says it and repeats or copies and pastes the same thing everywhere multiple times, it has to be true. Look how many times it is on the forum =must be true. And sort of like the Churches of my youth, if one did not like the preachers sermons you could just go somewhere else. Broken record.

 

[he-man]

Why do you keep circling the wagons You keep avoiding to explain Hebrews 1:8-9 Jerry Kelso

Jerry Kelso Why do you keep circling the wagons that do not say Jesus is God. You keep saying I am avoiding Hebrews 1:8-9 when I have plainly posted the correct Koine Greek? Heb 1:8 But to the Son the throne, of your God, is for ever and ever: and the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.

Why do you keep avoiding Is 43:10, 11; and Mat 1:16 And Jacob γεννάω Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was γεννάω Jesus, who is called Christ.
G1080 γεννάω - bear, beget, be born.;
AND 1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God;
AND 1Co 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's. Col 1:16 That in Christ all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, all things have been created for him and on behalf of him. 17 He is in front of all things, and in him all things stand together. :18 And he is the head of the body, the assembly: who is a beginning of the firstborn from the dead; that among all he might be first.
by him — rather as Greek, “in Him” as the conditional element, and is a different fact from the present one [Alford]
Is 43:10 You are My witness, said GOD, and servant who I have chosen: so that you may know and believe Me, to understand that I am He: before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there exist1 after Me.
11 I am GOD; and without2 me there is no saviour.[\b]
1 * Hebrew יהיה to be, exist, be present; happen, occur, take place: become, turn into
2 * Hebrew מבלעדי without
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God Jehovah, He that created the heavens, and stretched them out; He that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Is 43:15 I am the LORD GOD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.
Is 44:6 Thus saith the Lord, the King of Israel, and the redeemer, the LORD of
hosts; I am the only first, and I am the last; and besides me is no God.
8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told you from that time, and have
declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God besides me? yea, there is no
God; I know not any.
Je 16:21 Therefore here I am to make known this time to tell you by the hand of
mightiness to know that the name is Jehovah

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry Kelso Why do you keep circling the wagons that do not say Jesus is God. You keep saying I am avoiding Hebrews 1:8-9 when I have plainly posted the correct Koine Greek? Heb 1:8 But to the Son the throne, of your God, is for ever and ever: and the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.

Why do you keep avoiding Is 43:10, 11; and Mat 1:16 And Jacob γεννάω Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was γεννάω Jesus, who is called Christ.
G1080 γεννάω - bear, beget, be born.;
AND 1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God;
AND 1Co 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's. Col 1:16 That in Christ all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, all things have been created for him and on behalf of him. 17 He is in front of all things, and in him all things stand together. :18 And he is the head of the body, the assembly: who is a beginning of the firstborn from the dead; that among all he might be first.
by him — rather as Greek, “in Him” as the conditional element, and is a different fact from the present one [Alford]
Is 43:10 You are My witness, said GOD, and servant who I have chosen: so that you may know and believe Me, to understand that I am He: before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there exist1 after Me.
11 I am GOD; and without2 me there is no saviour.[\b]
1 * Hebrew יהיה to be, exist, be present; happen, occur, take place: become, turn into
2 * Hebrew מבלעדי without
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God Jehovah, He that created the heavens, and stretched them out; He that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Is 43:15 I am the LORD GOD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.
Is 44:6 Thus saith the Lord, the King of Israel, and the redeemer, the LORD of
hosts; I am the only first, and I am the last; and besides me is no God.
8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told you from that time, and have
declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God besides me? yea, there is no
God; I know not any.
Je 16:21 Therefore here I am to make known this time to tell you by the hand of
mightiness to know that the name is Jehovah

he-man,
1. I am sorry I don't have time to answer you so I will have to wait until the weekend.

2. I am not really sure how to write out the greek on the computer I'll have to try to figure that out.
The problem with your begotten translation is that it puts Christ as begotten strictly as a human or as a God.
3. The proper greek should be that he is God in the strictest sense because of his nature and not through humanity. His nature was deity before he became the God-man.

4. Most every popular translation from the King James, Strongs and English bible and on and on word Hebrews 1:8-9 as Christ being deity and the Father saying to the son or about the son that he was deity. I find it hard to believe that so many would be so reckless in their interpretation of the Hebrew and Greek. The KJV has no real contradictions in doctrine and this would be a grave mistake if what you say is true. That is for another post maybe but your translation doesn't agree with the whole essence and plain scriptures that show and imply more than one in the Godhead and compound unity. You would have to change the wording and the meaning to thousands of scriptures. On this basis alone I disagree with your rendering of the said intent of the original translations. The Father and Son relationship is a human example for God was never born whether it be the Father, the Holy Spirit or the Son. I have already proved you wrong according to the scriptures that the Father is separate from the Son and the Spirit and the Son is not the Spirit etc and that the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are all referred to as he and are separate. I have to go but I will be back later. Jerry kelso

 

[he-man]

I am not really sure how to write out the greek on the computer I'll have to try to figure that out. The problem with your begotten translation is that it puts Christ as begotten strictly as a human or as a God The proper greek should be that he is God in the strictest sense because of his nature and not through humanity. His nature was deity before he became the God-man. Most every popular translation from the King James, Strongs and English bible and on and on word Hebrews 1:8-9 as Christ. I find it hard to believe that so many would be so reckless in their interpretation of the Hebrew and Greek. Jerry kelso

Vanity of vanities, oh vain man; even the oldest manuscripts are not followed blindly, but intelligently.
John 8:32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." 2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. is that Spirit — is THE Spirit, namely, that Spirit spoken of in 2Co 3:6, and Christ is the Spirit and “end” of the Old Testament, who giveth life to it, whereas “the letter killeth” 1Co 15:45

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Why would anyone look to heaven if Christ were already here? Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Why do you keep avoiding Is 43:10, 11? Is 43:10 You are My witness, said GOD, and servant who I have chosen: so that you may know and believe Me, to understand that I am He: before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there exist1 after Me. 11 I am GOD; and without2 me there is no saviour. 1 * Hebrew יהיה to be, exist, be present; happen, occur, take place: become, turn into 2 * Hebrew מבלעדי without
Why do you keep avoiding Is 43:10, 11; and Mat 1:16 And Jacob γεννάω Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was γεννάω Jesus, who is called Christ.
G1080 γεννάω - bear, beget, be born.;
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God Jehovah, He that created the heavens, and stretched them out; He that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: Is

43:15 I am the LORD GOD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King. Is 44:6 Thus saith the Lord, the King of Israel, and the redeemer, the LORD of hosts; I am the only first, and I am the last; and besides me is no God. 8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told you from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God besides me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
Je 16:21 Therefore here I am to make known this time to tell you by the hand of mightiness to know that the name is Jehovah AND 1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God;
AND 1Co 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

Col 1:16 That in Christ all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, all things have been created for him and on behalf of him. 17 He is in front of all things, and in him all things stand together. :18 And he is the head of the body, the assembly: who is a beginning of the firstborn from the dead; that among all he might be first. by him — rather as Greek, “in Him” as the conditional element, and is a different fact from the present one [Alford]

Article XVIII. WE AFFIRM that the text of Scripture is to be interpreted by grammatico-historical exegesis, taking account of its literary forms and devices, and that Scripture is to interpret Scripture.
For a full listing in Greek of the differences among early editions, consult the appendixes in Hoskier 1890
This work is a very painstaking comparison of Codex Vaticanus with Codex Sinaiticus.

1Co 13:2 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love, I am nothing.
Delete: I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity,

1Co 15:25-27,28 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. But when he saith, All things are put in subjection, it is evident that he is excepted who did subject unto him all things.
Delete: For he hath put all things under his feet. 28 But when he saith, All things are put in subjection, it is evident that He is excepted who did subject unto him all things. then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Delete: And when there shall be subjected unto him all things,

The scribe of Sinaiticus was not given to making capricious substitutions and additions. Other scribes were guilty of this fault, as may be seen from Codex Claromontanus, for instance, which is another very old manuscript. And so even the oldest manuscripts are not followed blindly, but intelligently. Regarding Vaticanus: the homoiotéleuton omission "out of the world" in John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them but that thou shouldest keep them out of evil.
http://bible-researcher.com/[/b]

 

[he-man]

1Pe 2:15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
John 8:32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." 2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. is that Spirit — is THE Spirit, namely, that Spirit spoken of in 2Co 3:6, and Christ is the Spirit and “end” of the Old Testament, who giveth life to it, whereas “the letter killeth” 1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. Why would anyone look to heaven is Christ were already here? Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Why do you keep avoiding Is 43:10, 11? Is 43:10 You are My witness, said GOD, and servant who I have chosen: so that you may know and believe Me, to understand that I am He: before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there exist1 after Me. 11 I am GOD; and without2 me there is no saviour. 1 * Hebrew to be, exist, be present; happen, occur, take place: become, turn into 2 * Hebrew without
Why do you keep avoiding Is 43:10, 11; and Mat 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was begat Jesus, who is called Christ.
G1080 bear, beget, be born.; Isa 42:5 Thus saith God Jehovah, He that created the heavens, and stretched them out; He that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: Is 43:15 I am the LORD GOD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King. Is 44:6 Thus saith the Lord, the King of Israel, and the redeemer, the LORD of hosts; I am the only first, and I am the last; and besides me is no God. 8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told you from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God besides me? yea, there is no God; I know not any. Je 16:21 Therefore here I am to make known this time to tell you by the hand of mightiness to know that the name is Jehovah AND 1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God;
AND 1Co 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's. Col 1:16 That in Christ all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, all things have been created for him and on behalf of him. 17 He is in front of all things, and in him all things stand together. :18 And he is the head of the body, the assembly: who is a beginning of the firstborn from the dead; that among all he might be first.
by him — rather as Greek, “in Him” as the conditional element, and is a different fact from the present one [Alford]

Article XVIII. WE AFFIRM that the text of Scripture is to be interpreted by grammatico-historical exegesis, taking account of its literary forms and devices, and that Scripture is to interpret Scripture.
For a full listing in Greek of the differences among early editions, consult the appendixes in Hoskier 1890For a full listing in Greek of the differences among early editions, consult the appendixes in Hoskier 1890
This work is a very painstaking comparison of Codex Vaticanus with Codex Sinaiticus.
1Co 13:2 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love, I am nothing.
Delete: I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity,
1Co 15:25-27,28 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. But when he saith, All things are put in subjection, it is evident that he is excepted who did subject unto him all things.
Delete: For he hath put all things under his feet. 28 But when he saith, All things are put in subjection, it is evident that He is excepted who did subject unto him all things. then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Delete: And when there shall be subjected unto him all things,
The scribe of Sinaiticus was not given to making capricious substitutions and additions. Other scribes were guilty of this fault, as may be seen from Codex Claromontanus, for instance, which is another very old manuscript. And so even the oldest manuscripts are not followed blindly, but intelligently.
Regarding Vaticanus: the homoiotéleuton omission "out of the world" in John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them but that thou shouldest keep them out of evil.
http://bible-researcher.com/

God is one. Also the Bible does say, "And there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one." (1 John 5:7) So, here, it does not mean They are one in number, only; it does call Them "three".

1 John 5:7. Omit "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" at end of verse. Eró1516ò Eró1519ò G L T Tr A W WH N NA HF.
1 John 5:8. Omit "And there are three that bear witness in earth" at beginning of verse. Eró1516ò Eró1519ò G L T Tr A W WH N NA HF. Erasmus's third edition of 1522 contained one truly unfortunate innovation: The "Three Heavenly Witnesses" in 1 John 5:7-8. These were derived from the recently-written Codex 61, and (as the famous story goes) included by Erasmus "for the sake of his oath." Sadly, they have been found in almost every TR edition since. http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/TR.html
The Johannine Comma (1 John 5:7-8) The so-called Johannine Comma (also called the Comma Johanneum) is a sequence of extra words which appear in 1 John 5:7-8 in some early printed editions of the Greek New Testament.
These extra words are generally absent from the Greek manuscripts. In fact, they only appear in the text of four late medieval manuscripts. They seem to have originated as a marginal note added to certain Latin manuscripts during the middle ages, which was eventually incorporated into the text of most of the later Vulgate manuscripts.
All scholars consider it to be spurious, and it is not included in modern critical editions of the Greek text, or in the English versions based upon them. The passage is quoted by none of the Greek Fathers, who, had they known it, would most certainly have employed it in the Trinitarian controversies (Sabellian and Arian). Its first appearance in Greek is in a Greek version of the (Latin) Acts of the Lateran Council in 1215.
The passage is absent from the manuscripts of all ancient versions (Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopic, Arabic, Slavonic), except the Latin; and it is not found (a) in the Old Latin in its early form (Tertullian Cyprian Augustine), or in the Vulgate (b) as issued by Jerome (codex Fuldensis [copied a.d. 541-46] and codex Amiatinus [copied before a.d. 716]) or (c) as revised by Alcuin (first hand of codex Vallicellianus [ninth century]).
http://bible-researcher.com/comma.html
(For examples of other intrusions into the Latin text of 1 John, see 2.17; 4.3; 5.6, and 20.)

Eph 3:7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of His power. Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
Note: ** by Jesus Christ is Omitted in the original translations.**

Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever He doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father

You did not read what I posted:
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, for whom also to make the worlds;
Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. **Now the meaning is cause, communication, a word, account, words (G3056 Mt 5:32, 37; 12:32,36, 37 John 4:37, 39; 12:38, saying)
John 1:8 Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared and in John 15:15 for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. 16 the Son says: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, "d?́d?μ?" will give it you. *NOTE: "HE" may is supplied by the translatorand is not the actual translation.
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, consecrated be thy name.
and Heb 1:8 But to the Son the throne, of your God, is for ever and ever: and the
scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, your God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. Psa 23:5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Joh 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his Lord; neither he that is sent greater than He that sent him. Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but He that said unto him, Thou art my Son, today have I begotten thee. Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
1Co 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's. 1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
John 1:14 does not here say that the logos entered into a man or dwelt in a man or filled a man. By this word John insists that in the human Jesus he beheld the Shekinah (a Hebrew word that literally means "He caused to dwell) the glory of God. By this plural John speaks for himself and all those who saw in Jesus what he did. (Bernard).
Note also the absence of the article with the predicate substantive so that it cannot mean “the flesh became the Word.”
John 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was? Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 and he shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:;
Jesus said it was to the "will of God and not his will that he should die. Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou
Mat 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
Philippians 4:6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God;
Christ himself revealed the coming Spirit of God who also possessed divine attributes and too was spoken of as distinct from the Father. These statements of Jesus, along with the teaching of the epistles of Paul and John, presented a unique theological challenge to the early Christians.
Speaking of Trinitarianism in the ante-Nicene period is somewhat anachronistic, since the word Trinity (Lat. trinitas) was first coined by the Latin father Tertullian in the 2nd century, and the Trinitarian doctrine was not solidified as dogma until the early 4th century.
However, Roger Olson reminds us that "Christian belief in God as triune did not arise in the fourth century with Roman emporer Constantine and the Christian bishops that he dominated. Belief that it arose then as part of a vague paganizing or Hellenizing of Christianity is a caricature often promoted . (Roger Olson, The Mosaic of Christian Belief, p. 135)
Nothing is affirmed of His substantial nature. The phrase "spirit of God" ("rua? Elohim") merely describes the divine energy, and is not to be taken as equivalent to the phrase "God is a spirit," viz., an assertion concerning His incorporeality (Zech. iv. 6; Num. xiv. 22; Isa. xl. 13). He can not, however, be likened to any thing (Ex. xx. 4-5; Isa. xl. 18) or to any person (Jer. x. 6-7). No form is seen when God speaks (Deut. iv. 15)
The Mosaic of Christian Belief, p. 135
Anyone who has immortality cannot die, as Jesus did as a mortal. Pleople do not have immortality in the second death.

 

[com7fy8]

Anyone who has immortality cannot die, as Jesus did as a mortal. Pleople do not have immortality in the second death.

Jesus dying means He left this life . . . He no longer continued in His body on this earth. We do not mean He died as the spirit Being who He is.

Jesus existed before He lived on this earth . . . before He had His physical body >

"'And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.'" (John 17:5)

He did not always have His body >

"Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he Himself also likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the evil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage." (Hebrews 2:14-15)

So, the death of Jesus was not like that of mortal humans who are sinners; but Jesus used His death for destroying Satan. And we see here, also, that "fear of death" is slavery to Satan. The real Jesus keeps us from fear, in His love with power almighty of immunity against fear.

So, Jesus was alive before the world existed. And when He died, this means He left this life, on this earth, but not that He died like created humans die. But He, deeper than His material body, stayed alive.

And then Jesus rose as "a life-giving spirit", we have in 1 Corinthians 15:45. So, Jesus is our giver of life ! ! !

Jesus gives us His life of love > His eternal love life with God our Father (Romans 5:5, John 17:22-26).

"And this is the testimony, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." (1 John 5:11-12)

"'Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthews 11:28-29)

So, also, Jesus gives us rest for our souls, in God's love. And God's love "never fails", we have in 1 Corinthians 13:8. So, with the real Jesus we have love with His rest which does not fail, because we are in His almighty power which does not fail or die. So, He is sharing His own with us

 

[he-man]

Jesus dying means He left this life . . . He no longer continued in His body on this earth. We do not mean He died as the spirit Being who He is. Jesus existed before He lived on this earth . . . before He had His physical body

All spirits return to God but that does not mean they are immortal. [/QUOTE] You did not address the rest of what I posted Why do you keep avoiding Is 43:10, 11?
John 8:32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." 2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. is that Spirit — is THE Spirit, namely, that Spirit spoken of in 2Co 3:6, and Christ is the Spirit and “end” of the Old Testament, who giveth life to it, whereas “the letter killeth”
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
Why would anyone look to heaven if Christ were already here?
Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Why do you keep avoiding Is 43:10, 11? Is 43:10 You are My witness, said GOD, and servant who I have chosen: so that you may know and believe Me, to understand that I am He: before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there exist1 after Me.
11 I am GOD; and without2 me there is no saviour.
1 * Hebrew to be, exist, be present; happen, occur, take place: become, turn into 2 * Hebrew without
Why do you keep avoiding Mat 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was begat Jesus, who is called Christ.
G1080 bear, beget, be born.; Isa 42:5 Thus saith God Jehovah, He that created the heavens, and stretched them out; He that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: Is 43:15 I am the LORD GOD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King. Is 44:6 Thus saith the Lord, the King of Israel, and the redeemer, the LORD of hosts; I am the only first, and I am the last; and besides me is no God. 8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told you from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God besides me? yea, there is no God; I know not any. Je 16:21 Therefore here I am to make known this time to tell you by the hand of mightiness to know that the name is Jehovah AND 1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God;
AND 1Co 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's. Col 1:16 That in Christ all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, all things have been created for him and on behalf of him. 17 He is in front of all things, and in him all things stand together. :18 And he is the head of the body, the assembly: who is a beginning of the firstborn from the dead; that among all he might be first.
by him — rather as Greek, “in Him” as the conditional element, and is a different fact from the present one [Alford]

Article XVIII. WE AFFIRM that the text of Scripture is to be interpreted by grammatico-historical exegesis, taking account of its literary forms and devices, and that Scripture is to interpret Scripture.
For a full listing in Greek of the differences among early editions, consult the appendixes in Hoskier 1890For a full listing in Greek of the differences among early editions, consult the appendixes in Hoskier 1890
This work is a very painstaking comparison of Codex Vaticanus with Codex Sinaiticus.
1Co 13:2 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love, I am nothing.
Delete: I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity,
1Co 15:25-27,28 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. But when he saith, All things are put in subjection, it is evident that he is excepted who did subject unto him all things.
Delete: For he hath put all things under his feet. 28 But when he saith, All things are put in subjection, it is evident that He is excepted who did subject unto him all things. then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Delete: And when there shall be subjected unto him all things,
The scribe of Sinaiticus was not given to making capricious substitutions and additions. Other scribes were guilty of this fault, as may be seen from Codex Claromontanus, for instance, which is another very old manuscript. And so even the oldest manuscripts are not followed blindly, but intelligently.
Regarding Vaticanus: the homoiotéleuton omission "out of the world" in John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them but that thou shouldest keep them out of evil.
http://bible-researcher.com/
]

 

[com7fy8]

All spirits return to God but that does not mean they are immortal.

And it doesn't mean they are not immortal.

You did not address the rest of what I posted Why do you keep avoiding Is 43:10, 11?

Well, let's see >

Isaiah 43:10-11 >

"'You are My witnesses,' says the LORD,
.'And My servant whom I have chosen,
. That you may know and believe Me,
. And understand that I am He.
. Before Me there was no God formed,
. Nor shall there be after Me.
. I, even I, am the LORD,
. And besides Me there is no savior.'"

So, there is no savior besides our Father through Jesus His Son. Each Person has love purposes, for saving us. Our Father sent His Son, Jesus, to die for us, in order to save us; and now the Holy Spirit brings people to trust in Jesus for salvation. So, each Person specializes but all are involved in saving us "who first trusted in Christ" (Ephesians 1:12). So, we have trusted in Christ to save us. And it says there is no savior besides the LORD.

However, yes, it says "I" am, not "We" are, the LORD.

So, yes the Father is the "one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." (Ephesians 4:6)

And He speaks through His Son Jesus. Jesus is divine like His Father, like how a the son of a human is human.

 

[he-man]

And He speaks through His Son Jesus. Jesus is divine like His Father, like how a the son of a human is human.

??? Jesus was not divine until he was resurrected and is still waiting on the Father to turn the Kingdom over to him. Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenlies,

 

[jerry kelso]

Vanity of vanities, oh vain man; even the oldest manuscripts are not followed blindly, but intelligently.
John 8:32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." 2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. is that Spirit — is THE Spirit, namely, that Spirit spoken of in 2Co 3:6, and Christ is the Spirit and “end” of the Old Testament, who giveth life to it, whereas “the letter killeth” 1Co 15:45

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Why would anyone look to heaven if Christ were already here? Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Why do you keep avoiding Is 43:10, 11? Is 43:10 You are My witness, said GOD, and servant who I have chosen: so that you may know and believe Me, to understand that I am He: before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there exist1 after Me. 11 I am GOD; and without2 me there is no saviour. 1 * Hebrew יהיה to be, exist, be present; happen, occur, take place: become, turn into 2 * Hebrew מבלעדי without
Why do you keep avoiding Is 43:10, 11; and Mat 1:16 And Jacob γεννάω Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was γεννάω Jesus, who is called Christ.
G1080 γεννάω - bear, beget, be born.;
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God Jehovah, He that created the heavens, and stretched them out; He that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: Is

43:15 I am the LORD GOD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King. Is 44:6 Thus saith the Lord, the King of Israel, and the redeemer, the LORD of hosts; I am the only first, and I am the last; and besides me is no God. 8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told you from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God besides me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
Je 16:21 Therefore here I am to make known this time to tell you by the hand of mightiness to know that the name is Jehovah AND 1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God;
AND 1Co 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

Col 1:16 That in Christ all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, all things have been created for him and on behalf of him. 17 He is in front of all things, and in him all things stand together. :18 And he is the head of the body, the assembly: who is a beginning of the firstborn from the dead; that among all he might be first. by him — rather as Greek, “in Him” as the conditional element, and is a different fact from the present one [Alford]

Article XVIII. WE AFFIRM that the text of Scripture is to be interpreted by grammatico-historical exegesis, taking account of its literary forms and devices, and that Scripture is to interpret Scripture.
For a full listing in Greek of the differences among early editions, consult the appendixes in Hoskier 1890
This work is a very painstaking comparison of Codex Vaticanus with Codex Sinaiticus.

1Co 13:2 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love, I am nothing.
Delete: I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity,

1Co 15:25-27,28 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. But when he saith, All things are put in subjection, it is evident that he is excepted who did subject unto him all things.
Delete: For he hath put all things under his feet. 28 But when he saith, All things are put in subjection, it is evident that He is excepted who did subject unto him all things. then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Delete: And when there shall be subjected unto him all things,

The scribe of Sinaiticus was not given to making capricious substitutions and additions. Other scribes were guilty of this fault, as may be seen from Codex Claromontanus, for instance, which is another very old manuscript. And so even the oldest manuscripts are not followed blindly, but intelligently. Regarding Vaticanus: the homoiotéleuton omission "out of the world" in John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them but that thou shouldest keep them out of evil.
http://bible-researcher.com/[/b]

he-man,
Sorry for the delay but I have been quite busy.

1. Hebrews 1:8-9 can be rendered as the father being God with the throne and the kingdom.
At the same time the Son can be called God and said to have the kingdom. Isaiah 9:6-7

2. You believe the kingdom was given to the Son from the Father because he is in subjection to the Father and your subjection is in the light of the Son being inferior to the Father. I have already proven this wrong in earlier posts.

3. Hebrews 1:5 says: For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
The angels are called sons of God as well as men in the book of Job. They were never called the Son of God. In his incarnation the Father told the angels of God to worship "The Son of God". In John 10:30-38 the jews are mad at Jesus, not because of the good works but because he being a man, makest himself God. The truth was is that was their opinion because they only understood him as a man. Jesus answers back with Psalm 82:6; Is it not written in your law, Ye are gods? So why should they get upset at him for his claim? If he didn't do the works they didn't have to believe his claim. Though they didn't believe him if they saw the works they should believe and know that he is in the father and the father in him. Jesus never denied deity. It was because of their claim that they were gods he showed their ignorance and said the scripture cannot be broken. The father hath sanctified him and sent him into the world and they were blaspheming because he said he was the Son of God. How stupid when there claim was false while his was true and he had the works to back it up. They professed they were gods but he proved that he was the Son of God and as the Son of God he was deity. Even doubting Thomas called him, My Lord and My God and Jesus didn't deny it.
Even Kenneth Weiss shows how that Jesus being in the form of God had to do with the nature of God. The inward denotes the outward and this is why Jesus was God manifested in the flesh.

4. Isaiah 43:10-11: Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant who I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
I, even I, and the Lord, and beside me there is no savior.
The witnesses are the nation of Israel. The servant could be the prophets or the Messiah. I believe that it would most likely be the Messiah because he is the one who was the representative of God unlike no other because he was deity.
No God formed is true and has nothing to do with the incarnation or life of the Messiah for he was begotten and not created. Jesus knew how the heathen thought about Gods and even the jews of his day for they believed that old Gods were taken over by new Gods. Even the jews said they were gods.
So this scripture in no way implies that the Messiah is the one who was formed as in created. He was in the form of God because of his nature of himself which was God the deity.
God has order and God as elohim plural shows three persons in one. In 1 Corinthians 15 24 says then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father. This rendering implies the kingdom given up to God is elohim and plural for the God head. Even the Father in this light is including but not inclusive. Verse 27 the Father hath put all thing under the Son's feet. When the father says this of the son he says the son is the exception. So when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him that God all in all is not talking about being inferior but order for it is natural for the Son to be in subjection to the Father. God all in all is elohim plural and speaks of the Godhead being in proper order and all things in harmony according to creation and man to God.

5. God the Father can be unified in himself in harmony even though this doesn't fit the context of the Father to the Son or the body of Christ with one body of Christ and the many members. It doesn't go along with compound unity which the scriptures show time and time again.

6. The Father can be Savior of devising the plan of redemption but cannot be the Savior in actuality for he did not come as a man and experience things of the human race and did not bear the sins of sinners on the cross or rise again. This is the very reason God was said to give his son to the whole world. It the order of way things should be.

7. Because God the Father was not the Savior in the complete sense he cannot be the mediator between man and God. It took royal blood shed of the perfect lamb as the sacrifice of the world to redeem man from the penalty of sin and someone who understood men and could identify with them by experience. He was made like his brethren that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people and tempted in like manner. Hebrews 2:17-18.

Your view destroys compound unity and lowers God to mere man and destroys his position as deity. It makes God creating a son as a mere human to be worshipped when he said he wouldn't let anyone have his glory. It destroys his relationship before his incarnation which was deity with the father and the Holy Spirit as the Godhead. It destroys his role as the Savior as Yahweh, God of salvation to the jewish nation, especially in the book of Joshua which was a type of the Savior and leading the nation into the promised land. It gives man the ability to become the redeemer and ability to personally forgive and save sinners and to be the perfect faithful priest for all mankind.
Your view is not biblical according to the overwhelming amount of plain scriptures, context and the reconciling together of the scriptures on this given subject. Oneness in the God is unity and harmony absolute with 3 different individuals called God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit and these three bear witness in heaven and they are one. This scriptures shows three different individuals and they are one in earth, Spirit, water and the blood. Three different individuals who are all God that operate in different capacities according to what they are responsible for from creation to God being all in all and yet always being one in harmony and unity in the plan concerning man and his redemption and the redemption of his creation. Jerry Kelso

 

[com7fy8]

2. You believe the kingdom was given to the Son from the Father because he is in subjection to the Father and your subjection is in the light of the Son being inferior to the Father. I have already proven this wrong in earlier posts.

People of this world can feel that being in subjection to someone else has to mean you are inferior to the one over you. But in love, one can be under someone else . . . in position . . . but this can be good for both.

It is not the exact same thing, but my hand is my body and my head is my body. But my hand is subject to my head; this does not mean my hand is inferior to my head; both are my body. And it is good for my hand to be under the power of my head, and also my head would have a major problem if the head did not have my hands. So, one being can have more than one part or member. The fact that my hand is my body and my head is my body does not mean there is more than one of my body; and, like this, the fact that there are more than one Person of God does not mean there are more than one God.

And "God is love" (in 1 John 4:8&16). Love has more than one Person. Love is personal. God is personal, all through Himself, as love. The Father is a Person of love, the Son is a Person of love, and the Holy Spirit is so personal, sharing our Father's own love with us > Romans 5:5 > not only talking to us and guiding us. So - - in all our Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit do . . . They are equal, though their positions and love purposes can be different. Most of all is how They share in being love, in family sharing and caring love.

The fact that there are more than one Person does not mean there are many loves. God is one love. He is the Supreme Being of family caring and sharing love, with such unity personal and not only in ideas and actions.

 

[Biblicist]

I am not really sure how to write out the greek on the computer I'll have to try to figure that out.

I've been using the free Logos utility called Shibboleth which allows us to use six different styles of Greek, along with Hebrew, Syriac, Old Persian and a few more as well. link

Depending on your operating system and version of Office, I've discovered that some particular font types are best copied into MS WordPad and then copied from WordPad into MS Word or into CF's editor.

 

[he-man]

Hebrews 1:8-9 can be rendered as the father being God with the throne and the kingdom.
At the same time the Son can be called God and said to have the kingdom. Isaiah 9:6-7

Joh 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, AND [Your Son] Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

God has order and God as elohim plural shows three persons in one. In 1 Corinthians 15 24 says then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father. This rendering implies the kingdom given up to[size=4 God is elohim and plural for the God head.[/b][/size] Jerry Kelso

Come on now where is your Koine Greek ?? Yet you say God has order and God as elohim plural shows three persons in one.The correct translation is noun: dative singular masculine Source: http://www.laparola.net/greco/parola.php?p=θεῷ
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:24 ειτα το τελος οταν παραδιδω την βασιλειαν τω θεῷ και πατρι οταν καταργηση πασαν αρχην και πασαν εξουσιαν και δυναμιν knowledge?[/size]

 

[jerry kelso]

People of this world can feel that being in subjection to someone else has to mean you are inferior to the one over you. But in love, one can be under someone else . . . in position . . . but this can be good for both.

It is not the exact same thing, but my hand is my body and my head is my body. But my hand is subject to my head; this does not mean my hand is inferior to my head; both are my body. And it is good for my hand to be under the power of my head, and also my head would have a major problem if the head did not have my hands. So, one being can have more than one part or member. The fact that my hand is my body and my head is my body does not mean there is more than one of my body; and, like this, the fact that there are more than one Person of God does not mean there are more than one God.

And "God is love" (in 1 John 4:8&16). Love has more than one Person. Love is personal. God is personal, all through Himself, as love. The Father is a Person of love, the Son is a Person of love, and the Holy Spirit is so personal, sharing our Father's own love with us > Romans 5:5 > not only talking to us and guiding us. So - - in all our Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit do . . . They are equal, though their positions and love purposes can be different. Most of all is how They share in being love, in family sharing and caring love.

The fact that there are more than one Person does not mean there are many loves. God is one love. He is the Supreme Being of family caring and sharing love, with such unity personal and not only in ideas and actions.

com7fy8,

Very well put. This is what he-man does not show in his position. I have showed him before that the scripture shows compound unity in the Godhead and that the subjection is in the office and position. This doesn't conflict with Jesus being deity even though he shows that in his posts and view.
Christ is the one body of many members of believers and this is the very reason the Father and the Son are unified in compound unity as well as the Holy Spirit as the three persons in one. God bless!. Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

Joh 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, AND [Your Son] Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. Come on now where is your Koine Greek ?? Yet you say God has order and God as elohim plural shows three persons in one.The correct translation is noun: dative singular masculine Source: http://www.laparola.net/greco/parola.php?p=θεῷ
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:24 ειτα το τελος οταν παραδιδω την βασιλειαν τω θεῷ και πατρι οταν καταργηση πασαν αρχην και πασαν εξουσιαν και δυναμιν knowledge?[/size]

he-man,
1. John 17:21 has nothing to do with the kingdom being the father's or the son's. It about the Father sending the son who was begotten and not created. Christ did the finished work which the father gave him to do.
Jesus is addressing verse 3: And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent. This is respective of the father but not to mean there is only one person in the Godhead. If it was true like you believe Jesus would have corrected Thomas when he called Jesus his God. You dismiss all the other scriptures about God being plural in Elohim. An account of Elohim plural automatically cancels out your Elohim that is singular being absolute in one person in the Godhead. You are wrong again because it doesn't reconcile with the scriptures. This is why your context is wrong and no matter how many scriptures you produce to slant your way exegetically you are still wrong.
2. The son delivers the kingdom to God the father and this is proper order of God being all in all. God being all in all has nothing to do with the God head restored or only one being in the Godhead. It is all about the man being in complete harmony with God and the universe being lifted from the curse or at least our creation on earth being restored from sin and all things become completely one for good for sin and death will be destroyed.
3. Subjection in the Godhead has nothing to do with the Father being the only member in the Godhead.
You have the wrong greek understanding the translations of the scriptures as a whole. As I said before God can be judge but not the savior as in the actual savior who died. You would have to believe in the oneness doctrine for that. Jerry Kelso

 

[he-man]

. You dismiss all the other scriptures about God being plural in Elohim. An account of Elohim plural automatically cancels out your Elohim that is singular being absolute in one person in the Godhead. You are wrong again because it doesn't reconcile with the scriptures. This is why your context is wrong and no matter how many scriptures you produce to slant your way exegetically you are still wrong.
2. The son delivers the kingdom to God the father and this is proper order of God being all in all. God being all in all has nothing to do with the God head restored or only one being in the Godhead.3. Subjection in the Godhead has nothing to do with the Father being the only member in the Godhead. Jerry Kelso

Please show me the Greek word Elohim because I know of no Greek Elohim.
“The name Elohim is unique to Hebraic thinking – it occurs only in Hebrew and in no other ancient Semitic language. The masculine plural ending does not mean “gods” when referring to the true God of Israel, since the name is mainly used with singular verb forms and with adjectives and pronouns in the singular (e.g. see Gen. 1:26).” [1]
The form of the word Elohim, with the ending -im, is plural and masculine, but the construction is usually singular, i.e. it governs a singular verb or adjective when referring to the Hebrew god, but reverts to its normal plural when used of heathen divinities (Psalms 96:5; 97:7). •JEDP Theory (basictheology.com)
•Pentateuchal Studies Today by Gordon Wenham (1996) •The JEDP Theory from Wikipedia http://www.theopedia.com/Elohim

Do you see anyone crying for Jesus Here? Psalm 84:1 How lovely is your dwelling place, Lord Almighty! My soul yearns, even faints, for the courts of the Lord; my heart and my flesh cry out for the living God. So you think the Holy Spirit and Christ are equal? Mat 12:32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only.
1Co 15:27 For "God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "all things are put in subjection," it is plain that He is excepted who put all things in subjection under Him. Fortman The "Triune God"
Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; ...But now we see not yet all things put under him.
1Co 15:46 ...Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

 

[he-man]

This doesn't conflict with Jesus being deity even though he shows that in his posts and view.
Christ is the one body of many members of believers and this is the very reason the Father and the Son are unified in compound unity as well as the Holy Spirit as the three persons in one. God bless!. Jerry kelso

So you think the Holy Spirit and Christ are equal? Mat 12:32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only.
Proverbs 16:19 Better to be of a humble spirit with the lowly, Than to divide the spoil with the proud.

 

[jerry kelso]

Please show me the Greek word Elohim because I know of no Greek Elohim.
“The name Elohim is unique to Hebraic thinking – it occurs only in Hebrew and in no other ancient Semitic language. The masculine plural ending does not mean “gods” when referring to the true God of Israel, since the name is mainly used with singular verb forms and with adjectives and pronouns in the singular (e.g. see Gen. 1:26).” [1]
The form of the word Elohim, with the ending -im, is plural and masculine, but the construction is usually singular, i.e. it governs a singular verb or adjective when referring to the Hebrew god, but reverts to its normal plural when used of heathen divinities (Psalms 96:5; 97:7). •JEDP Theory (basictheology.com)
•Pentateuchal Studies Today by Gordon Wenham (1996) •The JEDP Theory from Wikipedia http://www.theopedia.com/Elohim

Do you see anyone crying for Jesus Here? Psalm 84:1 How lovely is your dwelling place, Lord Almighty! My soul yearns, even faints, for the courts of the Lord; my heart and my flesh cry out for the living God. So you think the Holy Spirit and Christ are equal? Mat 12:32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only.
1Co 15:27 For "God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "all things are put in subjection," it is plain that He is excepted who put all things in subjection under Him. Fortman The "Triune God"
Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; ...But now we see not yet all things put under him.
1Co 15:46 ...Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

he-man,
1. I don't believe I said Elohim was Greek. But when Elohim is used to show more than one person in the Godhead it is Greek to you.

2. The whole essence of what I said is that because of Elohim being plural in scripture showing that there are more than one person in the Godhead cancels out any of your claims of scripture that there is only one person in the Godhead. This means that the context of Elohim being used in singular has to be understood in the immediate context that has to harmonize with the other scriptures that show compound unity of more than one person in the Godhead. You can argue your exegetical hermeneutical greek all day long and never be right. It is the same as being stooped up by your hermeneutics and coming to the same conclusion and still coming up with the wrong conclusion.

3. Besides this problem you cannot deal with the fact of the kenosis of Christ or the two natures of fully God and fully man. If Christ had to become like man and live like him and being tempted with like temptations to become mediator for man then he would have to be true deity to be mediator for God to man. Your way can only conclude that Jesus was a human to be a mediator for man only. The only way he could be a mediator for God is through everything God gives him as in the subjection theory. This makes the son inferior in your view and that is why he is not deity.

4. God said he would not share his deity with another and yet he told the angels to worship his son. It would make no sense for God to give him this worship if he was mere man. If he was deity then the giving is not inferior and it is in the office. Once again you are wrong.
Show me where you think man can be "The Savior of the World" and "The Son of God" and forgive sins and be the mediator of man and God, and be worshipped by men and share his glory with God the father who will not share his glory with another if he was just merely a man. Jerry kelso

 

[com7fy8]

About the original subject of this thread > I think we worship the Holy Spirit, by obeying Him, by submitting to Him. And we live in the love which the Holy Spirit shares with us, "in our hearts" (Romans 5:5). So, while we live in this love so absolutely perfectly wonderful, we are in awe of this love; and, by being in awe of the love in the Holy Spirit, we are worshiping Him.

Also . . . about who Jesus is > ones can say He is or is not God, but who do we really mean by "God"? There are people who have God and Satan mixed up; what they say about Jesus may not even be true about Him; when ones talk about "God", they can be talking about "the god of this world" (in 2 Corinthians 4:4) and not about Jesus. And He is our example > Ephesians 5:2. And this comes right after we are told to imitate God; right here, we are given details, of how we are to love like Jesus has loved. If we don't, it may not matter what label we put on Him.

I remember how John says Jesus "is in the bosom of the Father", in John 1:18. Though He did have a flesh and blood body, Jesus was "in the bosom of the Father". So, when Jesus died, He might have stopped having His alive flesh and blood body, but still He was in the bosom of our Father. Because He is so pleasing to our Father > including, while He gave Himself for us on Calvary, He was "a sweet-smelling aroma" (Ephesians 5:2) pleasing to God Himself.

And before the earth was, our Father so loved His Son Jesus. Jesus was in our Father's heart, before creation.