Addressing Heretical Application of the Trinity Doctrine

[jerry kelso]

LISTEN: “Be still, and know that I am God; Psalm 46:10 (NIV)
1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen. Isa 44:6 Thus saith JEHOVAH, the King of Israel, and his redeemer JEHOVAH of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me, there is no God.
8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God besides me? yea, there is no God; I know not any. [YLT]
There are not two gods!
You are the Polygamist if you think Jesus was a god! This verse in Deuteronomy 13:1 addresses you and anyothrs who think there ais more than ONE GOD and Jesus was not GOD, Jesus was his son.
"If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, [or a Jerry Kelso] and he gives you a sign or a wonder, (2) and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, "Let us go after other gods"—which you have not known—"and let us serve them," (3) you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. New King James Version
3. There is one mediator between God and men the man Christ Jesus. He was not trying to explain his deity here. Just because he didn't mention doesn't mean that he is not deity. Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. and...
Jesus died and was dead for three days and he gave up the breath of life (Spirit) Jn 19:30
Heb 9:16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. (17) For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.
He sat down on his own right hand? Then why did Christ say, "..but to sit on the right hand or the left hand* is NOT mine to give?
Did God forget to tell Jesus the HOUR? Did the translators try to cover up Mat 24:36, when they chose not to include "NOR THE SON"?
Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, *neither the Son*, but the Father.
Mat 24:36 περι δε τηϲ ημεραϲ εκεινηϲ και ωραϲ ουδειϲ οιδε ουδε οι αγγελοι τω ουρανων ουδε ο υιοϲ ει μη ο πατηρ μονοϲ.
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, not the Son, if not the Father only. [Codex Sinaiticus]
Mat 24:36 περι δε της ημερας εκεινης και ωρας ουδεις οιδεν ουδε οι αγγελοι των ουρανων ουδε ο υιος ει μη ο πατηρ μονος [GNT]
36 But of that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of the heavens, nor the Son, but the Father only.
Luke 4:16 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read. (17) And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written:
(18) "The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me [NKJV] LISTEN: Christ is NOT TWO persons.

he-man,
I never said that Christ was 2 persons but had 2 natures.
Why do you kick against the pricks? You don't think Jesus was God yet the jewish leaders believed that he said that in John 5:17-18 and other passages. He asked the hypocritical pharisees if it was lawful to heal on the sabbath day and they could not answer him because he said; which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?. Your perception from what you post is that you take up for the hypocrites saying they weren't claiming he was the Son of God or deity.
Everything Jesus did in forgiving sins and allowing them to call him Messiah and healing on the sabbath etc was to show that he was equal with God thus proclaiming his deity and the Jews understood this clearly.
Isaiah 9:6-7 has the titles of the Messiah and one was "The Mighty God". Even if you believe that he was given this title by God the father to go along with your subjection theory it contradicts with your claim that God the Father will not share his glory with any other for any reason. Obviously, your wrong Greek has blinded you to the true Jewish understanding of what was really going on and what Jesus meant about mentioning his deity. You are wrong again. Jerry Kelso

 

[DrBubbaLove]

drbubbalove,
Thanks for upholding the truth in your posts and for realizing what I did say and what I didn't. It is reassuring that there are still some who want to uphold the truth.
The kenosis of Christ as I am sure you know is not about 2 Gods just because he is fully God and fully man. His greek doesn't match up with proper logic of the scriptures and properly reconciling the scriptures together. He cannot disprove compound unity and said that God or the Holy Spirit was referred till I gave him scripture and he has not proven how God would share his glory with the son when he believes that God would not share it with anyone for any reason. He says he doesn't believe that Jesus is deity and the Holy Spirit was the Spirit of God and not the 3rd person of the Godhead and that God the Father was the only member in the Godhead and this is a Christadelphian belief though he says he is not Christadelphianism. Either way he is a strict monotheistic who does not understand the kenosis of Christ. What are your thoughts on the kenosis of Christ? Thanks and God bless! Jerry kelso

I agree with you on fully Man and fully God obviously.
As to what manner of man, I think because He is still Divine He could have access to that but free chooses not to not prevent injury to Himself, and like us He was not impervious to pain, fear, sadness or externally/internally caused suffering. He reserved access and used His Divine Nature only to perform miracles on others, demonstrating both His Divinity and the proper humility of actually being human. He could have at anytime stopped not only those bad things happening to Him (whether splinter or His Passion), but also could have prevented anything causing those things from happening.

I think unlike us, He could experience pain and suffering and still retain perfect control of Himself - IOW keep calm and remain in perfect harmony within Himself as a real man - human mind and soul stays perfectly aligned with God -regardless of what they did or what occurred to His Body, but He certainly felt it all and experienced that suffering as any of us would. I think these thoughts are in line with what the Church teaches and with Saint Paul's comments - so in my thinking the Saint is saying He retains the Dignity of Who He is, but humbles Himself to allow/permit the man He became to experience the pain and injustice of this life.

 

[createdtoworship]

Your intention is to interrupt what I have posted and attack it rather than address the facts I have posted!!!....
Along with Codex Vaticanus, Codex Sinaiticus is one of the most valuable manuscripts for establishing the original text of the Greek New Testament

sorry heman, I have been busy and will continue to be so.

however, let me throw something out for you.

first of all you are relying on alexandrian and not byzantine mss.

alexandrian family (sinaiticus and vaticanus) are questionable as to their authenticity. ( I will link a study in a little bit)

now almost all seminaries are accepting their validity, but this is somewhat of an appeal to authority.

many do so out of fear of the implications of the byzantine text and that they really simply do not prefer archaic KJVonly bibles.

but there are many attempts at majority text translations that are not at all archaic.

I could put a few here for your, let me know.

I like the byzantine text because it has been quoted by the nicene fathers several times meaning there are non extant copies of this manuscript that perhaps predate the sinaiticus and vaticanus. (but like I said they are non extant and can not be verified, but we see the quotations that match the byzantine word for word over the alexandrian a few hundred years after Christ).

so how are these fathers quoting a byzantine text that would not appear on the scene for thousands of years?

because there were older copies, apparently. And I suggest these copies to be the original translations.

now we have the current byzantine text, and the quotes are matching of it, so in that way God's word would have still been preserved.

but again, the trinity (johannian comma), is found in the TR manuscript which is a derivative of the byzantine familes. (although not the same thing).

but anyway,

if you are using questionable texts to begin with, how can we expect to listen to the rest of your points.

if you start with a solid rock foundation, that arguments built upon that foundation will not shake with every tsunami, or with every strong rain storm.

I recommend a few links, for now....simply check out a phd article by elizabeth best (quoting a jewish blog):

she brings forth an interesting link to some forgery allegations of the sinaiticus papri that you are alleging in your post:

http://kjvonly2.blogspot.com/2011/09/sinaiticus-may-really-be-forgery-after.html

 

[he-man]

You don't think Jesus was God yet the jewish leaders believed that he said that in John 5:17-18 Isaiah 9:6-7 has the titles of the Messiah and one was "The Mighty God". Jerry Kelso

Is 9:6 Because to us a child is born, to us a son is given to become and the rule shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, protagonist Host of the Highest, and because of this work of God, The minister of Peace. [http://qbible.com/hebrew-old-testament/isaiah/5.html]
Your mistaken quote 0f Jn 5:17 stopped short when Jesus said, Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. [KJV]
Your problem is that you do not listen to what Samuel says:
1 Samuel 8:7 And the LORD said to Samuel, "Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them. (8) According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt, even to this day—with which they have forsaken Me and served other gods—so they are doing to you also.
New King James Version

 

[Albion]

Is 9:6 Because to us a child is born, to us a son is given to become and the rule shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, protagonist Host of the Highest, and because of this work of God, The minister of Peace.

Let's use a more acceptable translation.

For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father,
Prince of Peace.

 

[he-man]

first of all you are relying on alexandrian and not byzantine mss.alexandrian family (sinaiticus and vaticanus) are questionable as to their authenticity.

I feel sorry for you if you do not know how to research on a computer but perhaps you can get a broader insight by going to this web-site:
http://www.csntm.org/manuscript
http://codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx

 

[he-man]

Let's use a more acceptable translation.

For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father,
Prince of Peace.

I like the actual Hebrew better unless of course are like some who will not listen:
Berean Literal Bible
For there will be a time when they will not endure sound teaching, but according to their own desires, having an itching ear, they will gather around them teachers to suit themselves,

 

[he-man]

I asked you a question - how falsely claiming someone posted something that you know they did not post and certainly you would long ago known they could NEVER be understood to believe, how is that not bearing false witness?
And this is your reply - we are ungodly?

Do you have a colored scripture to copy paste giving you justification to lie without shame about the ungodly?

Berean Literal Bible
For there will be a time when they will not endure sound teaching, but according to their own desires, having an itching ear, they will gather around them teachers to suit themselves, 2Tim 4:3

 

[Albion]

I like the actual Hebrew better

It looked like English to me: ("Because to us a child is born, to us a son is given to become and the rule shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful....")

 

[Jack Terrence]

Holy Spirit = God
Holy Spirt = Part of the Trinity
We worship God

So with those 3 points above we worship The Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is God but Jesus said that he does not glorify himself. He glorifies Jesus.

 

[createdtoworship]

http://www.csntm.org/manuscript
http://codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx

sir you did not address anything I said, further more you provide answers to questions that were not asked. If I had asked the question "is there any manuscripts of codex sinaiticus?" then your links may be of use. But seeing you are dodging the question and throwing half hazard links from your list of sources without actually reading them, I presume we are done here.

if you can actually provide a scholar with an advanced degree in area of study to refute the author I presented that mentions an allegation into the sinaiticus alleged forgeries, then we presume you have no case against this case, and as it would stand my evidence would still be the priority by default of no rebuttal given on your behalf, only some photos of a manuscript that we all know and are unanimously agreed on that exists mechanically as to it's papyri leaves, but questions it's authenticity.

again I believe the byzantine family to be of higher priority.

read my last post for more info, and more detail, thanks for the comment.

 

[Berean777]

The Holy Spirit is God but Jesus said that he does not glorify himself. He glorifies Jesus.

God is infinite and indivisible Holy Spirit (John 4:24)

The Father and Son have Spirit. The Father and Son Spirit is Holy, that is Holy Spirit.

How many Holy Spirits are there ?

One.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

This thread is closed for staff review

Edit to add that this thread is staying closed. There is too much flaming all around. ​