Addressing Heretical Application of the Trinity Doctrine

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he-man

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1. Jesus was begotten before his role as the Messiah according to the Psalmist. At the same time he did not physically exist as Christ the Messiah until he was conceived of the Holy Spirit who is called God and proving that he was deity and he was begotten of the father. So all three are seen in the incarnation.
INDEED, how much plainer can it be? Exodus 2:23 Now it happened in the process of time that the king of Egypt died. Then the children of Israel groaned because of the bondage, and they cried out; and their cry came up to God because of the bondage. (24) So God heard their groaning, and God remembered His covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob. (25) And God looked upon the children of Israel, and God acknowledged them.
1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth Him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of Him. 1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of His power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of His mighty power,
20 Which He wrought in Christ, when He raised him from the dead, and set him at His own right hand in the heavenly places,
Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose descent have been from the ancients, foretold in old times.
4 And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall sit down as judge: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.
15 And [in that day] I will execute vengeance in anger and fury upon the heathen, such as they have not heard
Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 and he shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
2. The Holy Spirit is not an emanation even though I understand how you could come to that conclusion.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you.
An emanation does not speak and show things as in a physical sense. In verse 13 alone he is used 7 times to speak of the Holy Spirit. Just like God and his perfect number.
Your numbers are off tract. Uno Numero How can a he spirit person be A Spirit that dwelleth in you.
3. You say it is insulting to call or refer to God as a person. I can understand because God made man and he is above us. But he made us in his image which is more than just mere attributes. Also, if the Spirit of God is the personal spirit of the father and he shouldn't be referred to as a person then why does the scripture call him a he?
The scripture was translated by biased men who improperly inserted that opinion. Jesus, himself stated that he was not SPIRIT! Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

4. I have no presumptuous opinion we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is. The firstborn from the dead refers to Christ as Messiah and the resurrection and the life and not his actual pre-existence as Yahweh. Your problem is that you don't separate the two.
No, the problem is a blindness that happens when you are not open minded and accept what men make up to be fact instead of what Christ teaches, Why do you think he had to die if he were not under the Law of sin and death?
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory..

5. The churches goal is to become a perfect man according to Paul in Ephesians 4:13; Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. Christ is referred to as he for he was a man and it is his body. The church of Corinth was espoused by Paul as a bride and in Revelation the church will be a part of the Holy City, the new Jerusalem as the Bride. What bible do you read?
You Mean the part where the new Jerusalem (or ecclesia,) God gives to the figurative husband, Christ? Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 and he shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

6. The Holy Spirit is the temple not made with hands but this does not mean he is not a person. But it is clear that the Scriptures do call all them deity and that they are separate entities.
? What scriptures? 32 and he shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
The church is a body or assembly of people and is not called ‘he’ or ‘she’ but could be called ‘it’. Jesus is the headstone of the ecclesia. 1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (kephale̅ tou Christou ho theos). Rather, God is the head of Christ, since kephale̅ is anarthrous and predicate. [RWP] 23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
The Spirit of God makes his home (oikei) in us, not in temples made with hands (Act_7:48; Act_17:24). [RWP]
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
The Spirit of God makes his home (oikei) in us, not in temples made with hands (Act_7:48; Act_17:24). [RWP]
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father and of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having appropriated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
 
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jerry kelso

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INDEED, how much plainer can it be? Exodus 2:23 Now it happened in the process of time that the king of Egypt died. Then the children of Israel groaned because of the bondage, and they cried out; and their cry came up to God because of the bondage. (24) So God heard their groaning, and God remembered His covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob. (25) And God looked upon the children of Israel, and God acknowledged them.
1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth Him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of Him. 1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of His power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of His mighty power,
20 Which He wrought in Christ, when He raised him from the dead, and set him at His own right hand in the heavenly places,
Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose descent have been from the ancients, foretold in old times.
4 And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall sit down as judge: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.
15 And [in that day] I will execute vengeance in anger and fury upon the heathen, such as they have not heard
Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 and he shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Your numbers are off tract. Uno Numero How can a he spirit person be A Spirit that dwelleth in you.
The scripture was translated by biased men who improperly inserted that opinion. Jesus, himself stated that he was not SPIRIT! Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

No, the problem is a blindness that happens when you are not open minded and accept what men make up to be fact instead of what Christ teaches, Why do you think he had to die if he were not under the Law of sin and death?
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory..

You Mean the part where the new Jerusalem (or ecclesia,) God gives to the figurative husband, Christ? Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 and he shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

? What scriptures? 32 and he shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
The church is a body or assembly of people and is not called ‘he’ or ‘she’ but could be called ‘it’. Jesus is the headstone of the ecclesia. 1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (kephale̅ tou Christou ho theos). Rather, God is the head of Christ, since kephale̅ is anarthrous and predicate. [RWP] 23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
The Spirit of God makes his home (oikei) in us, not in temples made with hands (Act_7:48; Act_17:24). [RWP]
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
The Spirit of God makes his home (oikei) in us, not in temples made with hands (Act_7:48; Act_17:24). [RWP]
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father and of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having appropriated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,


he-man,

1. Christ was God before he became the literal Christ on earth and this is why he was God manifested in the flesh. Read John 1:1; 14. Matthew 1:23 Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. These scriptures show that Christ was deity and not just sent by God as a mere human who was sinless to die for man.

2. I already said that he was begotten before he came to earth prophetically but not literally for the Psalmist bears this out. Your scriptures bear out that it was prophetic.

3. Luke 24:39; Christ had flesh and bones for he was human and it is the body which is physical and human and is resurrected. The body that is natural and physical before resurrection and the resurrected body is spiritual. It wasn't saying that the spiritual body was never physical before or after.
Jesus had to have a body that would die and God prepared a body for him for this purpose and Christ didn't take on the nature of angels either. This shows that God made a way to become human and have the nature of man. He took on the seed of Abraham to be born a human and through his seed to fulfill the covenants.

4. A Spirit dwells in you? Jesus said the Spirit was with them but shall be in them. This doesn't mean physical as in the doctrine of interpenetration. The Spirit has a spirit body though not with flesh and bones.
The Holy Spirit was with the old testament saints in many ways such as new covenant believers. The biggest difference is that the Spirit is now available without measure because of the cross. Jesus was given the spirit without measure. It couldn't mean physical. Jesus is said to be in us, but not physically. The Spirit is available all the time for he took Christ place and was sent to be our comforter and sanctifier and the agent in salvation to put Christ into the body of believers.

5. The problem with your line of thinking and assessment is not believing in the Kenosis of Christ which is the emptying out of his Godly attributes as far as not using them, but instead being anointed by the Holy Spirit and directed by God the Father to accomplish his Messianic work including redemption.

6. Also, your position denies compound unity of the Godhead in the word of 3 persons, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

7. Your position sticks to the scriptures on Christ and his relationship with the Father and deny the other scriptures that mark his divine existence as Yahweh or God before he literally became Christ.

8. You said that it was insulting to refer to God as a he and yet the scriptures show the Spirit is referred to as a "He". Then you say that the Spirit is the Spirit of God the father and if that is true that he is the Spirit of God the Father then the Father is referenced as "He". But you can't answer these logically and that is why you don't rebut them. Instead you talk about the context on scriptures about Christ which I don't disagree with in many respects. However, you use them to prove he is only human and this leaves the bigger context of the scriptures out. This is why your line of thinking is out of harmony with the whole of scripture because it cannot be reconciled line upon line, precept upon precept.

9. I have rebutted your objections and yet you skate away from trying to rebut mine. The clearest objection that I brought up was about God referred to as "He" which you think is insulting and the Spirit being referred to as "He" which if he is God the Father's Spirit "He" is referred to as a "He" and so how could that be insulting? Start with that first and maybe we can progress somewhere, otherwise it just sounds like a bunch of humanistic garb. Jerry Kelso
 
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he-man

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Christ was God before he became the literal Christ on earth and this is why he was God manifested in the flesh. Read John 1:1; 14. Matthew 1:23 Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. These scriptures show that Christ was deity and not just sent by God as a mere human who was sinless to die for man.
Is 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a maiden shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name appointed by God, Immanuel. (H6005 a name of Isaiah’s son: - Immanuel)
Joh 1:14 And the word came to be the symbol of what is external, and tabernacled among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Note also the absence of the article with the predicate substantive so that it cannot mean “the flesh became the Word.”
John does not here say that the logos entered into a man or dwelt in a man or filled a man. By this word John insists that in the human Jesus he beheld the Shekinah (a Hebrew word that literally means "He caused to dwell) the glory of God. By this plural John speaks for himself and all those who saw in Jesus what he did. (Bernard).
Mr 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus shouted for help with a great voice, Eloi, Eloi, which is, being interpreted, "My God why are you so far from helping me?" Is 44:6 Thus saith the Lord, the King of Israel, and the redeemer, the LORD of hosts; I am the only first, and I am the last; and besides me is no God.
Ps 22:1 To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. God, God, why abandon me, so far away, and from the words of my crying?
Is 43:10 You are My witness, said GOD, and servant who I have chosen: so that you may know and believe Me, to understand that I am He: before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there exist after Me.
2. I already said that he was begotten before he came to earth prophetically but not literally for the Psalmist bears this out. Your scriptures bear out that it was prophetic.
Huh? He was born twice? You said John 1:14 (see above)
3. Luke 24:39; Christ had flesh and bones for he was human and it is the body which is physical and human and is resurrected. The body that is natural and physical before resurrection and the resurrected body is spiritual. It wasn't saying that the spiritual body was never physical before or after.
Jesus had to have a body that would die and God prepared a body for him for this purpose and Christ didn't take on the nature of angels either. This shows that God made a way to become human and have the nature of man. He took on the seed of Abraham to be born a human and through his seed to fulfill the covenants.
No, the covenants were made to us and the prophets. Through the seed (Spermatoza) of David, which God will give to Christ after the final resurrection, to restore us to the City of Zion, in Jeresulam.
John 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was? Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 and he shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:;
Jesus said it was to the "will of God and not his will that he should die. Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou
Mat 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.[/b]
 
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jerry kelso

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Is 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a maiden shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name appointed by God, Immanuel. (H6005 a name of Isaiah’s son: - Immanuel)
Joh 1:14 And the word came to be the symbol of what is external, and tabernacled among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Note also the absence of the article with the predicate substantive so that it cannot mean “the flesh became the Word.”
John does not here say that the logos entered into a man or dwelt in a man or filled a man. By this word John insists that in the human Jesus he beheld the Shekinah (a Hebrew word that literally means "He caused to dwell) the glory of God. By this plural John speaks for himself and all those who saw in Jesus what he did. (Bernard).
Mr 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus shouted for help with a great voice, Eloi, Eloi, which is, being interpreted, "My God why are you so far from helping me?" Is 44:6 Thus saith the Lord, the King of Israel, and the redeemer, the LORD of hosts; I am the only first, and I am the last; and besides me is no God.
Ps 22:1 To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. God, God, why abandon me, so far away, and from the words of my crying?
Is 43:10 You are My witness, said GOD, and servant who I have chosen: so that you may know and believe Me, to understand that I am He: before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there exist after Me. Huh? He was born twice? You said John 1:14 (see above) No, the covenants were made to us and the prophets. Through the seed (Spermatoza) of David, which God will give to Christ after the final resurrection, to restore us to the City of Zion, in Jeresulam.
John 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was? Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 and he shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:;
Jesus said it was to the "will of God and not his will that he should die. Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou
Mat 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.[/b]


he-man,

1. You have not rebutted the main objections I gave. Instead you answer with the same objections in the context of strictly the son and father relationship from being begotten before his birth, at his birth, throughout his life and after his death and resurrection.

2. You say it is an insult to refer to God the father as he and yet he is referred to as he since you believe that the Spirit is his personal spirit who is the comforter. That is a contradiction and you can't overcome it and that is why you won't address it and cannot adequately overcome it.

3. Your whole philosophy and logic is that Christ was subject as inferior to the Father and I have already debunked this notion and you haven't debunked it yet. Christ was not afraid to make himself equal with God the Father for he was deity. The Father called the Son God in Hebrews 1:8 and 9; But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Then you try to make the Son inferior because Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15 that the Son is subject to him so the Kingdom will be all in all. This shows subjection in the order of the Son to the father in their roles but not as being inferior. You contradict yourself again. God is a God of order. The Kingdom of God being all in all is that the universe will be complete in its unity to God for this earth is out of harmony with God because of sin.

4. In Hebrews 1:9; Thou has loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. God the Father calls the Son God and he has anointed the Son with the oil of gladness above thy fellows and this shows the example of how humans are supposed to rely on God. Jesus humanity is about identifying with man so he would know like passions etc. It wasn't about displaying his divinity for then he could not identify with man for man is not deity. We are only made in his image and we are finite while he is infinite. This is why one has to understand in the proper perspective about the Kenosis of Christ and the purpose of being the God-man.

5. As I have said before you are trying to hermeneutically prove your position and it doesn't hold water according to the scriptures. It is human logic and contradictory to the scriptures as I have already showed and you have not been able to rebut it.

6. I see no point in hermeneutically sparring when I have already debunked the overall position and thinking such as in the inferior subjectionism and have shown plain statements of God the Father calling the Son of God, God. This shows more that the phrase or title "Son of God" was more than just being a son such as humans who are regenerated. Christ was never regenerated for he had no sin and didn't have to be saved from sin. His purpose was to save men from their sin. Just because he bore our sin doesn't mean that he died spiritually from sin.

7. Why don't you just admit that you have contradicted yourself about the plain statements of the Father calling the Son God or at least give some explanation of why it means something else. Why don't you admit you contradicted yourself when you said it is an insult to refer to God as he and yet at the same time believe that he is the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is referred to as he. If you can't answer these two objections adequately then what is your purpose in saying anything. It is unfair to just keep denying and skating the truth by not explaining anything or use the same line of argument when it has already been proven wrong according to the scriptures.

You are free to believe anything that you want and that you feel is true and that is between you and God. If we are to progress then answer the two main objections according to the scriptures about God not being referred to as he as in his Spirit in John 14:17, 26; John 15:26, John 16:13,14; and the plain statements as in Hebrews 1:8-9 where the Father calls the Son God. John 15:16 the Son says: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, "He" may give it you. The pronoun "He" is talking about God the Father. How much plainer can it be? God the Father is referred to as "He" by the Son who God the Father calls the Son "God" and you think that is insulting.
 
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he-man

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1. You have not rebutted the main objections I gave. Instead you answer with the same objections in the context of strictly the son and father relationship from being begotten before his birth, at his birth, throughout his life and after his death and resurrection..
Well either put up or shut up and show ALL your scriptures that say JESUS is GOD! Okay so to sum it all up let us review what the Bible Scripture says and then you reply with scriptures ONLY, where you think it says Jesus is GOD. Did Jesus honor himself?
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, for whom also to make the worlds;
Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. **Now the meaning is cause, communication, a word, account, words (G3056 Mt 5:32, 37; 12:32,36, 37 John 4:37, 39; 12:38, saying)
John 1:8 Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared and in John 15:15 for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. 16 the Son says: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, "δίδωμι" will give it you. *NOTE: "HE" may is supplied by the translatorand is not the actual translation.
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, consecrated be thy name.
and Heb 1:8 But to the Son the throne, of your God, is for ever and ever: and the
scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, your God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. Psa 23:5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Joh 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his Lord; neither he that is sent greater than He that sent him. Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but He that said unto him, Thou art my Son, today have I begotten thee. Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
1Co 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's. 1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
John 1:14 does not here say that the logos entered into a man or dwelt in a man or filled a man. By this word John insists that in the human Jesus he beheld the Shekinah (a Hebrew word that literally means "He caused to dwell) the glory of God. By this plural John speaks for himself and all those who saw in Jesus what he did. (Bernard).
Note also the absence of the article with the predicate substantive so that it cannot mean “the flesh became the Word.”
John 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was? Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 and he shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:;
Jesus said it was to the "will of God and not his will that he should die. Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou
Mat 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
Philippians 4:6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God;
Christ himself revealed the coming Spirit of God who also possessed divine attributes and too was spoken of as distinct from the Father. These statements of Jesus, along with the teaching of the epistles of Paul and John, presented a unique theological challenge to the early Christians.
Speaking of Trinitarianism in the ante-Nicene period is somewhat anachronistic, since the word Trinity (Lat. trinitas) was first coined by the Latin father Tertullian in the 2nd century, and the Trinitarian doctrine was not solidified as dogma until the early 4th century.
However, Roger Olson reminds us that "Christian belief in God as triune did not arise in the fourth century with Roman emporer Constantine and the Christian bishops that he dominated. Belief that it arose then as part of a vague paganizing or Hellenizing of Christianity is a caricature often promoted . (Roger Olson, The Mosaic of Christian Belief, p. 135)
Nothing is affirmed of His substantial nature. The phrase "spirit of God" ("rua? Elohim") merely describes the divine energy, and is not to be taken as equivalent to the phrase "God is a spirit," viz., an assertion concerning His incorporeality (Zech. iv. 6; Num. xiv. 22; Isa. xl. 13). He can not, however, be likened to any thing (Ex. xx. 4-5; Isa. xl. 18) or to any person (Jer. x. 6-7). No form is seen when God speaks (Deut. iv. 15)
The Mosaic of Christian Belief, p. 135
Anyone who has immortality cannot die, as Jesus did as a mortal. Pleople do not have immortality in the second death
NOW, show me your scriptures WITHOUT any comments!
 
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jerry kelso

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Well either put up or shut up and show ALL your scriptures that say JESUS is GOD! Okay so to sum it all up let us review what the Bible Scripture says and then you reply with scriptures ONLY, where you think it says Jesus is GOD. Did Jesus honor himself?
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, for whom also to make the worlds;
Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. **Now the meaning is cause, communication, a word, account, words (G3056 Mt 5:32, 37; 12:32,36, 37 John 4:37, 39; 12:38, saying)
John 1:8 Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared and in John 15:15 for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. 16 the Son says: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, "δίδωμι" will give it you. *NOTE: "HE" may is supplied by the translatorand is not the actual translation.
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, consecrated be thy name.
and Heb 1:8 But to the Son the throne, of your God, is for ever and ever: and the
scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, your God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. Psa 23:5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Joh 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his Lord; neither he that is sent greater than He that sent him. Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but He that said unto him, Thou art my Son, today have I begotten thee. Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
1Co 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's. 1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
John 1:14 does not here say that the logos entered into a man or dwelt in a man or filled a man. By this word John insists that in the human Jesus he beheld the Shekinah (a Hebrew word that literally means "He caused to dwell) the glory of God. By this plural John speaks for himself and all those who saw in Jesus what he did. (Bernard).
Note also the absence of the article with the predicate substantive so that it cannot mean “the flesh became the Word.”
John 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was? Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 and he shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:;
Jesus said it was to the "will of God and not his will that he should die. Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou
Mat 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
Philippians 4:6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God;
Christ himself revealed the coming Spirit of God who also possessed divine attributes and too was spoken of as distinct from the Father. These statements of Jesus, along with the teaching of the epistles of Paul and John, presented a unique theological challenge to the early Christians.
Speaking of Trinitarianism in the ante-Nicene period is somewhat anachronistic, since the word Trinity (Lat. trinitas) was first coined by the Latin father Tertullian in the 2nd century, and the Trinitarian doctrine was not solidified as dogma until the early 4th century.
However, Roger Olson reminds us that "Christian belief in God as triune did not arise in the fourth century with Roman emporer Constantine and the Christian bishops that he dominated. Belief that it arose then as part of a vague paganizing or Hellenizing of Christianity is a caricature often promoted . (Roger Olson, The Mosaic of Christian Belief, p. 135)
Nothing is affirmed of His substantial nature. The phrase "spirit of God" ("rua? Elohim") merely describes the divine energy, and is not to be taken as equivalent to the phrase "God is a spirit," viz., an assertion concerning His incorporeality (Zech. iv. 6; Num. xiv. 22; Isa. xl. 13). He can not, however, be likened to any thing (Ex. xx. 4-5; Isa. xl. 18) or to any person (Jer. x. 6-7). No form is seen when God speaks (Deut. iv. 15)
The Mosaic of Christian Belief, p. 135
Anyone who has immortality cannot die, as Jesus did as a mortal. Pleople do not have immortality in the second death
NOW, show me your scriptures WITHOUT any comments!

he-man,

1. That is funny because I already showed you the scriptures and you won't answer to them or rebut them.
Hebrews 1:8-9 alone has God the Father calling God the Son God!!!!!!!!! And then the passage goes on to say that the Son created the world.

2. Hebrews 1:8-9: But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Thou has loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

3. Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands.

4. Now I have given you more than once the scriptures proving Jesus deity. The burden of proof is on you to disprove these two scriptures. You have not yet one time and I am still waiting.

5. I have already told you that the context you speak with the father son relationship in those passages do not and will completely reveal the deity of Christ because it is perfect in context to the human relationship of father to son. Jesus was begotten by the father before he came to earth because it was in the plan of redemption that he would become the son. In creation there is no sign of being a son for he was not begotten as deity.

6. God made man in his image and when he said that it was plural as in the word "us". Us could not mean angels for they were not God and they were created.
So you can be mad and quote the church fathers and your scriptures on the human relationship of Christ and the Father all you want to and you will come to a dead end and stay unreconciled to the truth and that is your choice.

7. I asked you for a simple rebuttal on Hebrews 1:8-9 that plainly has the Father calling the Son God. If you can't do this then just say so and if you can we will go from there. Dig deep and come up with something halfway logical. Jerry Kelso
 
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adhidarmawijaya

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In christianity admits that salvation is only by grace.
It means no one will be saved by their own effort, what ever it sound worthy ( Eph2:8), unless he or she is bestowed by Him, this is the core of the Gospel , where from understand it well finally men can glorify God ( the purpose of creation ).
To simplify understanding " salvation is only by grace ", we can imagine that all men are corpses before God, their only certainty is decaying by time ( smelling evil/ sinning ), their will is only negative will/opposing God (Rom3:10-12) , these corpses will never know : what is salvation and what's for ?, what is "glorifying God" meant and how ? unless they enter the purification process and come out as the winner (Rev3:5-6), understand (Mat13:23).
The words actually had already said it well in OT Gen2:17 ,so just only to prevent men for not eating the fruit of the tree of life intentionally Adam and Eve must be driven out from Eden it also indicates that there is no capability within humen to fulfill even His simplest law / men = corpses.
Unfortunately out side Eden no one admit this reality even being given hundreds of years for them verifying their dead before God, even God gave them hundreds of laws (torah laws) as the standard, they don not realize any yet indicated : they persistently enthusiastic fulfilling the laws , funny does not it ? .
With a veri simple logic we can say that "not eating the fruit of the tree of life " is the simpler than "fulfilling hundreds of laws" , if the simpler one they can not fulfill how can they feel they still can fulfill the more difficult one ? .

But that is the reality, until their time for verification their dead is over , so God should open up their eyes by manifesting His Grace ( this manifestation only God Himself could do ) by making Him to be the Messiah to manifest His Grace.


In OT has been clarified already that : some one purified by:the priest spatters the blood of sacrificed lamb to him = saved from dead ,but this is only allegoric (Isa 43:11 ; 45:21 ;49:26 ;60:16) , also saved = being risen from dead .
These messages should be explained by the Messiah in the manifestation of God's Grace.
These messages say : " Hi men you shall never earn your salvation by your own efforts as good as what ever it be , unless it is bestowed to you by God (Eph2:8), this grace I'm going to demonstrate for you (1Pet1:5), I will be crucified and then 3 days later I will rise from dead, that is the manifestation of the God grace, in this event the blood of the lamb = my blood = God blood, the priest = Me = manifestation of God(Rev5:9), the one who is purified will be acted by Me = God's chosen one ( not depend on men will but His will/names He planned before the foundation of the world/names listed in the book of life before the foundation of the world ) when you see these events come to pass , you see that is the grace of God , that same grace will be bestowed to you that believe me ( believe if that event is manifestation of God grace ), you that believe me is the winner / the saved (Rev3:5-6), but you that don not believe me you are the loser, cause you will say I am not God and you will consider me as human being like you (created being) so I am also spiritually dead before God (as corpse) it means this is not the manifestation of God Grace (there is no premise salvation is only by grace ) because I have to earn my salvation by my own effort through this event and it also means every men shall pay their sins through their own work, so why can not you fulfill the torah laws ?, why should I being said as redeemer (Eph1:7)?, why should I being said as savior (Lk2:11) who are redeemed by Me?, who are saved by Me ?, you (who don not believe ) are the loser in your existence you are flowing to eternal dead" .
 
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jerry kelso

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In christianity admits that salvation is only by grace.
It means no one will be saved by their own effort, what ever it sound worthy ( Eph2:8), unless he or she is bestowed by Him, this is the core of the Gospel , where from understand it well finally men can glorify God ( the purpose of creation ).
To simplify understanding " salvation is only by grace ", we can imagine that all men are corpses before God, their only certainty is decaying by time ( smelling evil/ sinning ), their will is only negative will/opposing God (Rom3:10-12) , these corpses will never know : what is salvation and what's for ?, what is "glorifying God" meant and how ? unless they enter the purification process and come out as the winner (Rev3:5-6), understand (Mat13:23).
The words actually had already said it well in OT Gen2:17 ,so just only to prevent men for not eating the fruit of the tree of life intentionally Adam and Eve must be driven out from Eden it also indicates that there is no capability within humen to fulfill even His simplest law / men = corpses.
Unfortunately out side Eden no one admit this reality even being given hundreds of years for them verifying their dead before God, even God gave them hundreds of laws (torah laws) as the standard, they don not realize any yet indicated : they persistently enthusiastic fulfilling the laws , funny does not it ? .
With a veri simple logic we can say that "not eating the fruit of the tree of life " is the simpler than "fulfilling hundreds of laws" , if the simpler one they can not fulfill how can they feel they still can fulfill the more difficult one ? .

But that is the reality, until their time for verification their dead is over , so God should open up their eyes by manifesting His Grace ( this manifestation only God Himself could do ) by making Him to be the Messiah to manifest His Grace.


In OT has been clarified already that : some one purified by:the priest spatters the blood of sacrificed lamb to him = saved from dead ,but this is only allegoric (Isa 43:11 ; 45:21 ;49:26 ;60:16) , also saved = being risen from dead .
These messages should be explained by the Messiah in the manifestation of God's Grace.
These messages say : " Hi men you shall never earn your salvation by your own efforts as good as what ever it be , unless it is bestowed to you by God (Eph2:8), this grace I'm going to demonstrate for you (1Pet1:5), I will be crucified and then 3 days later I will rise from dead, that is the manifestation of the God grace, in this event the blood of the lamb = my blood = God blood, the priest = Me = manifestation of God(Rev5:9), the one who is purified will be acted by Me = God's chosen one ( not depend on men will but His will/names He planned before the foundation of the world/names listed in the book of life before the foundation of the world ) when you see these events come to pass , you see that is the grace of God , that same grace will be bestowed to you that believe me ( believe if that event is manifestation of God grace ), you that believe me is the winner / the saved (Rev3:5-6), but you that don not believe me you are the loser, cause you will say I am not God and you will consider me as human being like you (created being) so I am also spiritually dead before God (as corpse) it means this is not the manifestation of God Grace (there is no premise salvation is only by grace ) because I have to earn my salvation by my own effort through this event and it also means every men shall pay their sins through their own work, so why can not you fulfill the torah laws ?, why should I being said as redeemer (Eph1:7)?, why should I being said as savior (Lk2:11) who are redeemed by Me?, who are saved by Me ?, you (who don not believe ) are the loser in your existence you are flowing to eternal dead" .

adhidarmawija,

1. This post is about Jesus deity.
2. Your post is about God's grace through the Messiah in the eyes of redemption.
3. It is also about the law of Moses and having no self effort or works in salvation.
4. It is also about Total depravity of men.
5. Is your point that God had to be deity to be the redeemer because you seem to believe in Jesus as the God man even though you don't seem to address it.
6. Concerning God's grace for those who choose it are winners and those who don't are the ones who lose out.
7. About the law of Moses no one could keep it all the time but there were those who lived the law perfectly at times such as Zechariah and Elizabeth and Paul even though Paul didn't recognize in killing christians he was not pleasing God and he said he did it in ignorance and that is why he received mercy.
At times Israel lived according to the law and were blessed. At the same time they had offering for different repentance and the priest intercede 1 time a year etc.
8. You are correct though self effort will fail because the law of sin and death took advantage of the law that was holy and good and made them live to the frailty of man according to Paul in Romans 7. The better promises of the new covenant and life in the Spirit has done away with the law of sin and death and made greater access to God etc.
There are no works that merit salvation but we are to obey through faith by freewill choice and God alone can justify to save a person. So we are justified by works as fruit but not in order to justify by grace. Christ took care of the penalty at Calvary and that was his work alone and he alone can say a person is saved when they meet the proper requirements of obedience through faith.
9. Total depravity doesn't mean we cannot make a freewill decision to serve Christ when the Spirit convicts and illuminates the truth of our need for a Savior. It does mean that we don't naturally gravitate to God and we don't live for him because of living in sin and we do not understand the things of God as his children can know him and understand. Paul bears this out in 1 Corinthians 2 when he talks about the natural man doesn't receive the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. Jerry kelso
 
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adhidarmawijaya

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adhidarmawija,

1. This post is about Jesus deity.
2. Your post is about God's grace through the Messiah in the eyes of redemption.
3. It is also about the law of Moses and having no self effort or works in salvation.
4. It is also about Total depravity of men.
5. Is your point that God had to be deity to be the redeemer because you seem to believe in Jesus as the God man even though you don't seem to address it.
6. Concerning God's grace for those who choose it are winners and those who don't are the ones who lose out.
7. About the law of Moses no one could keep it all the time but there were those who lived the law perfectly at times such as Zechariah and Elizabeth and Paul even though Paul didn't recognize in killing christians he was not pleasing God and he said he did it in ignorance and that is why he received mercy.
At times Israel lived according to the law and were blessed. At the same time they had offering for different repentance and the priest intercede 1 time a year etc.
8. You are correct though self effort will fail because the law of sin and death took advantage of the law that was holy and good and made them live to the frailty of man according to Paul in Romans 7. The better promises of the new covenant and life in the Spirit has done away with the law of sin and death and made greater access to God etc.
There are no works that merit salvation but we are to obey through faith by freewill choice and God alone can justify to save a person. So we are justified by works as fruit but not in order to justify by grace. Christ took care of the penalty at Calvary and that was his work alone and he alone can say a person is saved when they meet the proper requirements of obedience through faith.
9. Total depravity doesn't mean we cannot make a freewill decision to serve Christ when the Spirit convicts and illuminates the truth of our need for a Savior. It does mean that we don't naturally gravitate to God and we don't live for him because of living in sin and we do not understand the things of God as his children can know him and understand. Paul bears this out in 1 Corinthians 2 when he talks about the natural man doesn't receive the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. Jerry kelso
Hi jerry kelso.
In my post above , i tried to share a little corresponding to the thread title especially about who was Jesus.

And I appreciate you for your willingness to respond my post, but i apologize to not answer your 9 point here you may want me answer it, cause it may go far out of the thread title, I hope you willing to invite me to the related thread title.
 
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he-man

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[QUOTE="jerry kelso, post: 68243236, member: 326861 2. Hebrews 1:8-9: But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou has loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 3. Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands. 7. I asked you for a simple rebuttal on Hebrews 1:8-9 that plainly has the Father calling the Son God. If you can't do this then just say so and if you can we will go from there. Dig deep and come up with something halfway logical. Jerry Kelso[/QUOTE] You did not read what I posted:
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, for whom also to make the worlds;
Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. **Now the meaning is cause, communication, a word, account, words (G3056 Mt 5:32, 37; 12:32,36, 37 John 4:37, 39; 12:38, saying)
John 1:8 Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared and in John 15:15 for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. 16 the Son says: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, "διδωμι?" will be given it you. *NOTE: "HE" may is supplied by the translator and is not the actual translation.
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, consecrated be thy name.
andHeb 1:8 But to the Son the throne, of your God, is for ever and ever: and the
scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, your God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. Psa 23:5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Joh 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his Lord; neither he that is sent greater than He that sent him. Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but He that said unto him, Thou art my Son, today have I begotten thee. Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
1Co 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's. 1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
John 1:14 does not here say that the logos entered into a man or dwelt in a man or filled a man. By this word John insists that in the human Jesus he beheld the Shekinah (a Hebrew word that literally means "He caused to dwell) the glory of God. By this plural John speaks for himself and all those who saw in Jesus what he did. (Bernard).
Note also the absence of the article with the predicate substantive so that it cannot mean “the flesh became the Word.”
John 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was? Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 and he shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:;
Jesus said it was to the "will of God and not his will that he should die. Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou
Mat 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
Philippians 4:6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God;
[/b]
 
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jerry kelso

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[QUOTE="jerry kelso, post: 68243236, member: 326861 2. Hebrews 1:8-9: But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou has loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 3. Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands. 7. I asked you for a simple rebuttal on Hebrews 1:8-9 that plainly has the Father calling the Son God. If you can't do this then just say so and if you can we will go from there. Dig deep and come up with something halfway logical. Jerry Kelso
You did not read what I posted:
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, for whom also to make the worlds;
Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. **Now the meaning is cause, communication, a word, account, words (G3056 Mt 5:32, 37; 12:32,36, 37 John 4:37, 39; 12:38, saying)
John 1:8 Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared and in John 15:15 for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. 16 the Son says: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, "διδωμι?" will be given it you. *NOTE: "HE" may is supplied by the translator and is not the actual translation.
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, consecrated be thy name.
andHeb 1:8 But to the Son the throne, of your God, is for ever and ever: and the
scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, your God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. Psa 23:5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Joh 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his Lord; neither he that is sent greater than He that sent him. Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but He that said unto him, Thou art my Son, today have I begotten thee. Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
1Co 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's. 1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
John 1:14 does not here say that the logos entered into a man or dwelt in a man or filled a man. By this word John insists that in the human Jesus he beheld the Shekinah (a Hebrew word that literally means "He caused to dwell) the glory of God. By this plural John speaks for himself and all those who saw in Jesus what he did. (Bernard).
Note also the absence of the article with the predicate substantive so that it cannot mean “the flesh became the Word.”
John 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was? Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 and he shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:;
Jesus said it was to the "will of God and not his will that he should die. Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou
Mat 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
Philippians 4:6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God;
[/b][/QUOTE]

he-man,

1. I read what you said and I told you that you were staying in the context of the son to the father concerning his humanity to prove he was not deity.

2. You are trying to use John 1:8 and 1:18 by saying the word begotten means Christ was created. This is not correct for he was begotten. We are all begotten of Adam and Eve and that means we have the same nature etc. This was true of the Son of God and the phrase;"Son of God" shows his deity for he was not "A Son of God" but "The Son of God".
Being begotten of the Father means that he had his nature and existed before the Father said, Today I have begotten you. Adam was created but we are begotten of him. Christ was begotten and not created at all for he is God and pre-exsisted. So you are incorrect about making Jesus no deity at all for eternity.

3. The flesh didn't become the word for he was already the Word according to John 1:1. He was God manifested in the flesh not becoming God by becoming a human. Where is that logic? That is ridiculous.
So once again your hermeneutics has failed you and is incorrect. Jesus is God's son because he was begotten and not created. He was never a Son of God like us but he was and is "The Son of God" Your whole begotten interpretation is wrong and really shows and proves his deity. Jerry Kelso
 
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he-man

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The flesh didn't become the word for he was already the Word according to John 1:1. He was God manifested in the flesh not becoming God by becoming a human. Where is that logic? That is ridiculous.
So once again your hermeneutics has failed you and is incorrect. Jesus is God's son because he was begotten and not created. He was never a Son of God like us but he was and is "The Son of God" Your whole begotten interpretation is wrong and really shows and proves his deity. Jerry Kelso
Isa 40:28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Mat 1:16 And Jacob γεννάω Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was γεννάω Jesus, who is called Christ.
G1080 γεννάω - bear, beget, be born.
1 Peter 2:13 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people.

Deu 29:29 The secret things belong unto Jehovah our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
Deu 4:32 For ask now of the days that are past, which were before thee, since the day that God created man upon the earth, and ask from the one side of heaven unto the other, whether there hath been any such thing as this great thing is, or hath been heard like it?
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten [ only born, that is, sole:] Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Psa 23:5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all
 
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jerry kelso

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Isa 40:28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Mat 1:16 And Jacob γεννάω Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was γεννάω Jesus, who is called Christ.
G1080 γεννάω - bear, beget, be born.
1 Peter 2:13 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people.

Deu 29:29 The secret things belong unto Jehovah our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
Deu 4:32 For ask now of the days that are past, which were before thee, since the day that God created man upon the earth, and ask from the one side of heaven unto the other, whether there hath been any such thing as this great thing is, or hath been heard like it?
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten [ only born, that is, sole:] Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Psa 23:5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all

he-man,

1. You have not explained Hebrews 1:8-9 directly. You keep giving the scripture and try to prove the point by scriptures about the father and the son relationship and the son being born and created when I have already explained and debunked.
2. You keep giving the subjection theory of being inferior which is incorrect hermeneutics and because you cannot disprove that God the Father called the Son God.

3. You are wrong if you believe the Son was not deity as the Son in his life on earth or now for the Father called him God.

4. If you don't believe in his pre-existence then you refuse to believe that Hebrews 1:9 is talking about the Son as God who created the earth.

5. The best possible answer you could give is that Christ was given deity because he was the son and he is subject to the Father, because you believe that the son is inferior and subject to the Father. This cannot be harmonized with the Son being God who created the world. Also, it don't square with the fact that you believe the Father is the only member in the Godhead.

6. You are wrong in every point according to the scripture and that is a fact in plain statement and context and reconciling the scriptures together of compound unity. Hebrews 1:8-9 alone trumps every scripture of yours to prove no deity in the Son and it mean your context is incorrect across the board. Jerry kelso
 
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he-man

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Isa 40:28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Mat 1:16 And Jacob γεννάω Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was γεννάω Jesus, who is called Christ.
G1080 γεννάω - bear, beget, be born.
1 Peter 2:13 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people.

Deu 29:29 The secret things belong unto Jehovah our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
Deu 4:32 For ask now of the days that are past, which were before thee, since the day that God created man upon the earth, and ask from the one side of heaven unto the other, whether there hath been any such thing as this great thing is, or hath been heard like it?
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten [ only born, that is, sole:] Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Psa 23:5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all
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he-man

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[QUOTE="jerry kelso, post: 68273939, member: 326861" ] 4. If you don't believe in his pre-existence then you refuse to believe that Hebrews 1:9 is talking about the Son as God who created the earth. [/QUOTE] AMEN! Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Mat 1:16 And Jacob γεννάω
Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was γεννάω Jesus, who is called Christ. G1080 [ b] γεννάω - bear, beget, be born. [/b]
1 Peter 2:13 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things **NOTE: by Jesus Christ is not in the manuscripts!** The oldest manuscripts omit “by Jesus Christ.” [JFB]
The phrase, "by Jesus Christ", is left out in the Alexandrian and Claromontane copies, and in the Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Ethiopic versions. (m) Zohar in Exod. fol. 20. 4. & in Numb. fol. 66. 3. Targ. Jon. & Jeras. in Gen. iii. 24. (n) Abot R. Nathan, c. 31. T. Bab. Sabbat, fol. 88. 2. [GILL]

But the phrase is missing in the Vulgate, the Syriac, the Coptic, and in several of the ancient mss. Mill remarks that it was probably inserted here by some transcriber and it is rejected as an interpolation by Griesbach. [BARNES]

But the words δια Ιησου Χριστου, by Jesus Christ, are wanting in ABCD*FG, and several others; also in the Syriac, Arabic of Erpen, Coptic, Ethiopic, Vulgate, and Itala; as also in several of the fathers. Griesbach has thrown the words out of the text; and Professor White says, “certissime delenda,” they are indisputably spurious. The text, therefore, should be read: which from the beginning of the world had been hidden in God who created all things. [CLARKE]
 
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jerry kelso

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[QUOTE="jerry kelso, post: 68273939, member: 326861" ] 4. If you don't believe in his pre-existence then you refuse to believe that Hebrews 1:9 is talking about the Son as God who created the earth.
AMEN! Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Mat 1:16 And Jacob γεννάω
Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was γεννάω Jesus, who is called Christ. G1080 [ b] γεννάω - bear, beget, be born. [/b]
1 Peter 2:13 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things **NOTE: by Jesus Christ is not in the manuscripts!** The oldest manuscripts omit “by Jesus Christ.” [JFB]
The phrase, "by Jesus Christ", is left out in the Alexandrian and Claromontane copies, and in the Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Ethiopic versions. (m) Zohar in Exod. fol. 20. 4. & in Numb. fol. 66. 3. Targ. Jon. & Jeras. in Gen. iii. 24. (n) Abot R. Nathan, c. 31. T. Bab. Sabbat, fol. 88. 2. [GILL]

But the phrase is missing in the Vulgate, the Syriac, the Coptic, and in several of the ancient mss. Mill remarks that it was probably inserted here by some transcriber and it is rejected as an interpolation by Griesbach. [BARNES]

But the words δια Ιησου Χριστου, by Jesus Christ, are wanting in ABCD*FG, and several others; also in the Syriac, Arabic of Erpen, Coptic, Ethiopic, Vulgate, and Itala; as also in several of the fathers. Griesbach has thrown the words out of the text; and Professor White says, “certissime delenda,” they are indisputably spurious. The text, therefore, should be read: which from the beginning of the world had been hidden in God who created all things. [CLARKE]
[/QUOTE]

he-man,

1. Your hermeneutical view and translation is that Christ being begotten was about being born and created and I have already debunked it.

2. 1 Peter 2:13 is supposed to be 1 Peter 2:15: For so is the will of God, that with well-doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men. The context is about one's conversation being honest among the Gentiles that speak of one being an evildoer. This is to be a witness to them which will be seen of good works.

3. I have not called you an evildoer and I am a christian and I am contending for the faith just like you believe that your are. From your tone of that statement it sounded like an indirect comment about me making ignorant talk. That is ok I find it amusing more than merely offensive. I think that is very pharisee-ical so I will just say your talk and belief is illogical to the context of the scriptures despite in your closed context you would be correct which I have stated before.

4. I agree Jesus Christ is not in the manuscripts in Ephesians 3:19. It says God and would refer to the Father for he created all things by Jesus. In Colossians 1:16 agrees with this so their is no contradiction. However, in the latter part of the verse it says all things were created by him and for him. Created by him is not the same as the father creating by him. So Clarke is wrong just like he is wrong on his eschatological view.

5. Once again you are wrong and you ought to think twice about who you think is talking ignorantly. LOL! even though it is true.

6. One simple question; what is your reason that God the Father called the Son God? Let me know! Jerry Kelso
 
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he-man

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I agree Jesus Christ is not in the manuscripts in Ephesians 3:19. It says God and would refer to the Father for he created all things by Jesus.
Col 1:16 That in Christ all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, all things have been created for him and on behalf of him. 17 He is in front of all things, and in him all things stand together. :18 And he is the head of the body, the assembly: who is a beginning of the firstborn from the dead; that among all he might be first.
Does the Bible LIE? It does not say:
δια Ιησου Χριστου , by Jesus Christ, are wanting in ABCD*FG, and several others; also in the Syriac, Arabic of Erpen, Coptic, Ethiopic, Vulgate, and Itala; as also in several of the fathers. Griesbach has thrown the words out of the text; and Professor White says, “certissime delenda,” they are indisputably spurious. The text, therefore, should be read: which from the beginning of the world had been hidden in God who created all things. [CLARKE]
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God; 1Co 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
 
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jerry kelso

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Col 1:16 That in Christ all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, all things have been created for him and on behalf of him. 17 He is in front of all things, and in him all things stand together. :18 And he is the head of the body, the assembly: who is a beginning of the firstborn from the dead; that among all he might be first.
Does the Bible LIE? It does not say:
δια Ιησου Χριστου , by Jesus Christ, are wanting in ABCD*FG, and several others; also in the Syriac, Arabic of Erpen, Coptic, Ethiopic, Vulgate, and Itala; as also in several of the fathers. Griesbach has thrown the words out of the text; and Professor White says, “certissime delenda,” they are indisputably spurious. The text, therefore, should be read: which from the beginning of the world had been hidden in God who created all things. [CLARKE]
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God; 1Co 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

he-man,

You can believe what you think to be the right translation if you want to but you are convincing only yourself. You still haven't explained why God the Father called God the son his God. You also have not answered to the fact that Jesus was called God that formed the earth. You can't answer these two and that is why you stay away from them. The only way that you could get out of it is by your false translation and poor hermeneutics but you are welcome to take a stab at it. Good luck.
Either say you don't know or change the meaning or something but unless you can adequately answer this then you don't have a leg to stand on. Do you understand that you have to overcome this before all your scriptures can possibly be true. Until then they are only right in your belief of your context? Do you understand this at all or is it just greek to you? Lol. Jerry Kelso
 
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he-man

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You can believe what you think to be the right translation.. Do you understand this at all or is it just greek to you? Lol. Jerry Kelso
Here is the Koine Greek You are saying that the Bible LIES. It does not say Jesus is God, in fact it says just the opposite:
δια Ιησου Χριστου , by Jesus Christ, are wanting in ABCD*FG, and several others; also in the Syriac, Arabic of Erpen, Coptic, Ethiopic, Vulgate, and Itala; as also in several of the fathers. Griesbach has thrown the words out of the text; and Professor White says, “certissime delenda,” they are indisputably spurious. The text, therefore, should be read: which from the beginning of the world had been hidden in God who created all things. [CLARKE]
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God; 1Co 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
My advice for you would be Hosea 10:12 Sow for yourselves righteousness; Reap in mercy; Break up your fallow ground, For it is time to seek the LORD, Till He comes and rains righteousness on you.
Col 1:16 That in Christ all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, all things have been created for him and on behalf of him. 17 He is in front of all things, and in him all things stand together. :18 And he is the head of the body, the assembly: who is a beginning of the firstborn from the dead; that among all he might be first.
by him rather as Greek, “in Him” as the conditional element, and is a different fact from the present one [Alford]
 
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Jerry kelso
The text, therefore, should be read: which from the beginning of the world had been hidden in God who created all things. [CLARKE]
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God; 1Co 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
My advice for you would be Hosea 10:12 Sow for yourselves righteousness; Reap in mercy; Break up your fallow ground, For it is time to seek the LORD, Till He comes and rains righteousness on you.
Col 1:16 That in Christ all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, all things have been created for him and on behalf of him. 17 He is in front of all things, and in him all things stand together. :18 And he is the head of the body, the assembly: who is a beginning of the firstborn from the dead; that among all he might be first.
by him — rather as Greek, “in Him” as the conditional element, and is a different fact from the present one [Alford]
Isa 40:28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God,Jehovah, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Mat 1:16 And Jacob γεννάω Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was γεννάω Jesus, who is called Christ.
G1080 γεννάω - bear, beget, be born.
1 Peter 2:13 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people.
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God Jehovah, He that created the heavens, and stretched them out; He that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
 
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