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Featured A flat earth, and Noah's Ark.

Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by Kenneth Redden, Jan 1, 2017.

  1. Kenneth Redden

    Kenneth Redden Digital communication defeats warped space. Supporter

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    I believe that, according to Paul's demonstration; Noah may have lived on a flat earth and would have had no problem boarding on the ark, all the animals that God requested; without an issue.
     
  2. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Grimly waiting for my cornflakes.

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    Oh goody, another flood thread. :clap:

    The account describes 'hills', 'high hills', and 'mountains' present during the flood, which means they were not caused by the flood. So no, the earth wasn't flat at that time.
     
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  3. Joshua_5

    Joshua_5 Member

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    Compared to 8" per mile ^ 2, high hills and mountains are still relatively flat.
     
  4. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ

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    Well, the flat earth view does not exist for airline pilots. For don't you realize that you can book flights to go around the world today? Granted, it is not a non-stop flight. You will have to make stops, but you can go around the world yourself by booking a flight route with multiple flight #s. Would you still be in doubt even taking the flight? Take a compass with you and enjoy the journey around the world.


    ....
     
  5. JackRT

    JackRT I'm on the left.

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    My daughter just flew from Toronto to Hong Kong over the North Pole. Impossible on a flat earth. Back when aircraft had a much more limited range that flight would have been Toronto to Vancouver to Hawaii to Midway to Wake Island to Tokyo to Hong Kong. A much longer distance.

    We are not speaking of geological features. Keep in mind that the biblical cosmology is of a flat earth.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2017
  6. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Grimly waiting for my cornflakes.

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    Sorry about that. :sorry:

    I've never really gotten that from the bible. The earth is flat, for most practical applications.
     
  7. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Grimly waiting for my cornflakes.

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    True. Mountains are like grains of sand on a 12 inch globe.
     
  8. JackRT

    JackRT I'm on the left.

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    Modern or ancient, every culture operates within a certain cosmology or understanding of the universe. This cosmology sets the context of how a people understand their world and their place in it. With very few exceptions our modern day cosmology is shaped by the scientific discoveries of the past 500 years. Some of these discoveries have greatly upset religious understandings and it sometimes takes centuries to reconcile the differences. However, since we live in a culture that has been greatly shaped by the bible and Christian beliefs, it is worthwhile to ask about biblical cosmology.

    The biblical understanding of the universe is much the same as that of the surrounding cultures in the ancient Middle East at the time when it was written. Unfortunately, nowhere does the bible attempt to present a comprehensive cosmology, so we are forced to rely upon individual passages and to attempt to understand them in the light of their culture and their history. To begin with, biblical cosmology can be characterized as a three-tiered universe. This strange phrase needs some explanation to make the concept clearer.

    First, the surface of the earth is circular and flat except for geographical features like hills and valleys. This of course was the belief of the Sumerians. To these people it was theoretically possible to go high enough to see the entire earth, or to envision a tree tall enough that it could be seen from everywhere on the earth's surface, or even to build a tower to reach the sky. The sky was thought of as a solid bowl, called the firmament, that was upended over the circular earth to enclose a volume in the shape of a hemisphere. I should add that there are some bible verses that speak of the four corners of the earth. This was the view of the Babylonians. This would make the firmament look more like a tent than a bowl. The lights of the sky (sun, moon, planets and stars) were inside the firmament and were very much smaller than we presently understand. In fact they were very much smaller than the earth itself. The mechanism by which these celestial objects moved about is not really explained. The noncanonical Book of Enoch (mentioned in the bible as authoritive and part of the canon of Ethiopian Christians) speaks of gates in the east and west for the sun and the moon to enter and leave. Enoch also suggests that their movements are caused by winds.

    What I have just described is the middle tier of the three. Above the firmament are waters. This region is described as heaven, the abode of God and the angels. There were also gates in the firmament to permit water to enter as rain. Below the earth are also waters. This region is described as sheol or hell. There were also gates in the earth to permit water to spring up from below. This three level universe is variously described as either hung on nothing or supported by pillars. Storehouses are also envisioned in heaven for the snow and hail.

    How should a of Christian today react to this biblical cosmology? The vast majority of what might be described as 'mainline' Christians are actually quite comfortable with this seeming dichotomy. They recognize that the bible is the product of a relatively unsophisticated people with an entirely pre-scientific understanding of nature, who used poetic or metaphorical language to convey their spiritual understandings. On the other hand there is the minority point of view of those Christians who regard the bible to be inerrant and to be understood literally. This group has been forced into extreme apologetic efforts in order to reconcile the bible with modern scientific understandings.

    Speaking personally, I find these apologetic attempts to be rather inventive and very strained. I believe that if the scripture writers and early target audience were to read these apologetics, they would find them extremely puzzling and entirely foreign. This is not to say that they were not intelligent people or not keen observers of nature but rather that that they lacked the intellectual basis to form scientific hypotheses and even the instrumentation to gather accurate data --- all that came about some 2,000 years later.

    Isaiah 11:12And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH. (KJV)

    Revelation 7:1And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (KJV)

    Job 38:13 That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? (KJV)

    Jeremiah 16:19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. (KJV)

    Daniel 4:11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH: (KJV)

    Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (KJV)

    Psalm 104:5 "He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved."(NIV)

    Psalm 93:1"The LORD reigns, he is robed in majesty; the LORD is robed in majesty and is armed with strength. The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved." (NIV)

    Psalm 96:10 "Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns." The world is firmly established, it cannot be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity." (NIV)

    Ecclesiastes 1:5 "The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises." (NIV)

    Isaiah 40:22 "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in." (NIV)

    Job 9:6 He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble. (NIV)

    Job 26:11 The pillars of the heavens quake, aghast at his rebuke. (NIV)

    Job 38:22 "Have you entered the storehouses of the snow or seen the storehouses of the hail," (NIV)

    Amos 9:6 The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens and has founded His VAULTED DOME over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea and pours them out on the face of the earth, The LORD is His name. (NASB)

    The biblical flat earth cosmology persisted into New Testament times. However by the mid second century Christianity had largely lost its Jewish roots and understandings and had become a gentile Greek speaking movement. Of course the Greeks knew that the earth was a sphere thanks to Eratosthenes who actually was able to calculate the circumference around 240 BC. This knowledge gradually percolated into Jewish and Christian thought especially after Ptolemy introduced his cosmology in the mid second century. The earth became the center of the universe with the moon and then the sun and then the planets, with complicated epicycles, and then the “fixed” stars all in orbit around it. This was the cosmology accepted by Christianity until the revolution of Copernicus, Kepler. Galileo and Newton. This was resisted by Christianity largely on the basis that the earth was not the center of God’s creation. In a relatively short time even this scientific insight was not only accepted but accepted to the extent that the biblical cosmology of a flat earth was rejected. The flat earth was not only rejected but ridiculous arguments were even invented to suggest that the bible was not even suggesting a flat earth at all. Such, all too often, is the way some Christians react to new understandings and insights.

    Even having said all this, the belief in a flat earth persisted for a very long time, even in educated circles, as is evidenced in this comment by Ferdinand Magellan, the first person to circumnavigate the globe: “The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church.” It took time but the modern cosmology took root in society at large, so much so that some Christians even return to the bible and attempt to reinterpret it in such a way as to “prove” that it was speaking of a spherical earth orbiting the sun all along.
     
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  9. Kenneth Redden

    Kenneth Redden Digital communication defeats warped space. Supporter

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    No, that's not what I read, according to Paul's revelation. I read that Noah existed in the earth of another dispensation which is, another universe. That is how Noah did it without breaking any of the laws of this Universe.
    It appears that all had not known about this Universe when Paul asks, "if ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God," which is our Universe of today; the fourth day of the Creation.
    So, no; high hills and mountains do not refute the concept. Try again, but I don't think you even have an argument in this discussion, from your perspective. :)
    [Eph 3:2 KJV] 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
     
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  10. Kenneth Redden

    Kenneth Redden Digital communication defeats warped space. Supporter

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    This study may not reach the level of understanding required to understand specific events; however, many threads may be found in scripture through this study which may add knowledge to your understanding.
     
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  11. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ

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    But evidence for the flood exists upon our Earth.


    ...
     
  12. JackRT

    JackRT I'm on the left.

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    We have massive evidence for many large scale local floods. One would think that a more recent world wide flood would have wiped out the evidence of these local floods. It hasn't and there is absolutely no evidence of such a world wide flood.
     
  13. toLiJC

    toLiJC Senior Member

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    many words in the book Genesis, as well as in the biblical scriptures as a whole, are figurative; remember the ark of the mosaic covenant in which the two tablets/tables with the Ten Commandments inscribed on them were kept, there was also such an ark of the covenant that God made through Noah, i.e. the "ark" is the boundaries of the covenant's Law, and Noah had to establish the belief/doctrine coming from the true God that animals are not unclean of themselves, which was a part of the covenant that God made through him, because most humans of the then world (civilization) (and even all except several) had become heretical worshipers believing that the animals are (ostensibly) unclean of themselves - that heretical belief was very popular at that time, and most worshipers (were inclined to) ascribe(d) the greatest sin to the animals when it was actually theirs - the very "flood" was made with a purgatorial spirit called "water"

    Blessings
     
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  14. Kenneth Redden

    Kenneth Redden Digital communication defeats warped space. Supporter

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    Details of the creation are generally beyond the scope of this study. We are primarily looking at the ways in which threads are formed in the KJV Bible, which sometimes includes precept, as said in Isaiah 28:10.
     
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  15. Kenneth Redden

    Kenneth Redden Digital communication defeats warped space. Supporter

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    But, of course; you must first accept the Word of the LORD is from the beginning of the creation and translated today, in Greek, and English, and Hebrew through the Holy Inspiration of the Holy Ghost. The KJV Bible is perfect and without err, which this study may reveal.
     
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  16. brinny

    brinny everlovin' shiner of light in dark places Supporter

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    Wouldn't Noah's Ark have gone over the side of a flat earth?

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ

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    I believe the KJV is the perfect Word of God for our day. I also believe Scripture needs to be compared with Scripture to confirm a particular truth within God's Word, too. What I don't believe in is things that sound more like worldly Science Fiction versus something in God's Word. Alternate universes, time travel, warp travel, zombies, holographic life forms, aliens, planets flat in shape, liquid metal terminators, ghosts, trolls, etc. are just a couple of things that sound more like Science Fiction than Science fact.


    ...
     
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  18. Kenneth Redden

    Kenneth Redden Digital communication defeats warped space. Supporter

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    Yes, I am aware of our place in the Milky Way, sir. But this is irrelevant to the first, second and third day of the creation. The stars were not made until the fourth day of the creation; therefore, the earth could not have been round until, today, the fourth day when, "he made the stars also" in Genesis 1:16.
     
  19. Kenneth Redden

    Kenneth Redden Digital communication defeats warped space. Supporter

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    Actually, this Universe could not have existed until the fourth day of the creation, when the stars were made. These things sound like science fiction because we are just now discovering our world. Remember, the KJV Bible has to give 21st Century concepts to 21st Century minds using the primitive languages of primitive peoples. Not an easy task.
    But, it appears as though he has done it through logical format and underlying discourse patterns that exist in the KJV Bible from Genesis to Revelation. The apostle Peter gives demonstration of the days of the creation in the doublet offered in 2 Peter 3:3-8 KJV.
     
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  20. Kenneth Redden

    Kenneth Redden Digital communication defeats warped space. Supporter

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    No, why would you say that, is it in the KJV Bible?
    If it is not addressed in the KJV Bible, it is not an issue and none of our concern. Please don't confuse the wisdom of God with, "with enticing words of man's wisdom." 1 Corinthians 2:4.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2017