Isaiah 65:17-19 relates to the eternal state not some supposed future millennium

[Jamdoc]

You keep repeating the same error. You are yet to disprove a literal reading of the text.

There is no doubt it is an ancient battle. Are we still fighting with bows and arrows? I do not think so!!!

Pretrib and Postrib Premillennialists identify this passage with Armageddon and the end of their future 7-year great tribulation. The only problem is, if that’s the case, they would be burning weapons seven years into their millennium, which runs contrary to their own teaching. This totally corrupts their supposed future pristine millennium. This simply doesn’t add up.

I've already laid out the 3 possibilities of why descriptions of ancient weapons are in the text for a not ancient battle.

But there is simply 0 corroboration or evidence that what Ezekiel predicted happened yet.
You seem to think Ezekiel was recording history rather than predicting the future.

and actually pretrib usually separates Gog/Magog from Armageddon because they're stuck on assuming a western European Antichrist, and assuming a Russian Gog.
they usually place Gog/Magog before "the 7 year tribulation"

 

[sovereigngrace]

I've already laid out the 3 possibilities of why descriptions of ancient weapons are in the text for a not ancient battle.

But there is simply 0 corroboration or evidence that what Ezekiel predicted happened yet.
You seem to think Ezekiel was recording history rather than predicting the future.

and actually pretrib usually separates Gog/Magog from Armageddon because they're stuck on assuming a western European Antichrist, and assuming a Russian Gog.
they usually place Gog/Magog before "the 7 year tribulation"

Please address the difficulty i highlighted in your scheme re the millennium.

 

[Timtofly]

You are moving the goal posts again, as Premils have to do to fit their scheme. They want to forget that Satan gets a season at the end that blows apart their 7000 years plan. What is more, they forget that we are already in the millennium with their reasoning, if we take it from Christ's birth, as we do even if it is out 4 years. This also demolishes the Premil scheme.

So calling Scripture error is the only way you can demolish the "Premil scheme", what ever that is. You keep putting up different goal post. No one said creation would last a perfect 8,000 years from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 20:11.

 

[Jamdoc]

Please address the difficulty i highlighted in your scheme re the millennium.

premillennialists don't see the millennium as pristine at all, if any have been toting it as such they have been misrepresenting it.

The millennium is a continuation of things on this current planet. A planet that had just gotten done with catastrophic wars, supernatural disasters, and the death of all sea life. The world is a mess and scripture does not say Jesus comes and Thanos snaps it into perfection. Your position is closer to that, and I suppose some premillennialists do kind of tote that line without really thinking it through what the Millennial period is going to actually be like.
The first part, even without my understanding which would lump the wrath of God, the 7 trumpets and 7 bowls as the first part of the "millennium" because it is the Day of the Lord.. so the world is a mess because it'd just come out of those judgements. It has to be cleaned up, cities rebuilt, society restarted with Jesus as the King.
It could take a hundred years just to clean up some of the mess. All marine life dead? Without divine intervention that world is a mess just from that alone.
But no, Ezekiel 39 itself shows that it is not a thanos snap to an ideal world. It's cleaning up mess. In Isaiah 2 and so on they talk about beating swords into plowshares and spears into pruning hooks, it represents a process going from a world that knew extensive war to a world rebuilding and repurposing for peace. Ultimately the Millennium is a better place than this current world, but it's not a magic snap, and it's not perfect, it's not creation made anew. It's creation being cleaned up and rebuilt.

 

[DavidPT]

We are over 2000 years since the birth of Christ. We must niw be in the millennium.

I wouldn't think that is when the clock starts. He hasn't even went anywhere yet when He is born. Therefore, no need to return. But once He leaves the planet altogether, which He did soon after He died and rose, now there is a need to return eventually. Therefore, this 2000 year window in question begins with His ascension not His birth. Apparently then, it hasn't been 2000 years since He ascended. We are getting close to that, just not quite there yet.

Obviously, since it hasn't been quite 2000 years yet since He had ascended, you cannot at this time prove this wrong.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I wouldn't think that is when the clock starts. He hasn't even went anywhere yet when He is born. Therefore, no need to return. But once He leaves the planet altogether, which He did soon after He died and rose, now there is a need to return eventually. Therefore, this 2000 year window in question begins with His ascension not His birth. Apparently then, it hasn't been 2000 years since He ascended. We are getting close to that, just not quite there yet.

Obviously, since it hasn't been quite 2000 years yet since He had ascended, you cannot at this time prove this wrong.

And this is exactly why Premil has lost a lot of credibility over the years. They keep moving the goal posts. They have to. When they are proven wrong they tweak to fit their error. There is no public apology or repentance. 2000 hype did a lot of harm to Premil. That is when I abandoned it. I listened the false predictions and saw it all go up in a puff of smoke.

 

[Jamdoc]

And this is exactly why Premil has lost a lot of credibility over the years. They keep moving the goal posts. They have to. When they are proven wrong they tweak to fit their error. There is no public apology or repentance. 2000 hype did a lot of harm to Premil. That is when I abandoned it. I listened the false predictions and saw it all go up in a puff of smoke.

It's less premill and more pretrib that is the issue there.
Pretribbers, for all their vaunted doctrine of imminency and "the rapture has no signs" and "no man knows the day or the hour" sure does look for signs and tries to set dates.
It's rather an oddity. They refuse to accept the signs in the bible, and try to come up with their own.
There was 88 reasons the rapture is in 1988 and the millennium, and in 2011 Harold Camping's mess cause he tried to calculate 7 years back from 1948, and when it didn't happen he declared a "spiritual rapture". Cause you know, if you throw the word "spiritual" in front of something that always makes it work right?
the 2017 star sign event, and now this solar eclipse.

But not every Premillennialist is a Pretrib.

 

[sovereigngrace]

premillennialists don't see the millennium as pristine at all, if any have been toting it as such they have been misrepresenting it.

The millennium is a continuation of things on this current planet. A planet that had just gotten done with catastrophic wars, supernatural disasters, and the death of all sea life. The world is a mess and scripture does not say Jesus comes and Thanos snaps it into perfection. Your position is closer to that, and I suppose some premillennialists do kind of tote that line without really thinking it through what the Millennial period is going to actually be like.
The first part, even without my understanding which would lump the wrath of God, the 7 trumpets and 7 bowls as the first part of the "millennium" because it is the Day of the Lord.. so the world is a mess because it'd just come out of those judgements. It has to be cleaned up, cities rebuilt, society restarted with Jesus as the King.
It could take a hundred years just to clean up some of the mess. All marine life dead? Without divine intervention that world is a mess just from that alone.
But no, Ezekiel 39 itself shows that it is not a thanos snap to an ideal world. It's cleaning up mess. In Isaiah 2 and so on they talk about beating swords into plowshares and spears into pruning hooks, it represents a process going from a world that knew extensive war to a world rebuilding and repurposing for peace. Ultimately the Millennium is a better place than this current world, but it's not a magic snap, and it's not perfect, it's not creation made anew. It's creation being cleaned up and rebuilt.

I have never heard this Premil view.

 

[Jamdoc]

I have never heart this Premil view.

To be fair, most premills kind of gloss over the idea of rebuilding, and some kinda do see it as a Thanos snap until you actually point out to them the state of the world after Armageddon
Joel Richardson is like me in that sense (and he's more post trib), but it was something I agreed with him on, scripture doesn't show an instant paradise after Jesus' return it shows a process of human work transforming a world of war into a world of peace

You do have to realize for a lot of people they see a view of "one look at Jesus' glory and you won't care about anything else ever again" like for them, just Jesus being there is instant perfection, even if the physical state of the world is a tattered mess they wouldn't care because hey, Jesus is there, they don't care about the insignificant details like, oh this trainwreck of a world needs to be cleaned up, either they just don't care because they'll have Jesus and that's enough.. or they assume Jesus will clap His hands and everything is instantly good I guess.
But it's not what the bible shows.
The bible shows a paradise is the end result, and of course in the new creation everything made new, but
there is a period where people are cleaning up bodies for months, like continual employment doing nothing but burials.
and years of burning weapons
and an unknown duration of time of converting weapons to farming implements, etc.

 

[sovereigngrace]

To be fair, most premills kind of gloss over the idea of rebuilding, and some kinda do see it as a Thanos snap until you actually point out to them the state of the world after Armageddon
Joel Richardson is like me in that sense (and he's more post trib), but it was something I agreed with him on, scripture doesn't show an instant paradise after Jesus' return it shows a process of human work transforming a world of war into a world of peace

You do have to realize for a lot of people they see a view of "one look at Jesus' glory and you won't care about anything else ever again" like for them, just Jesus being there is instant perfection, even if the physical state of the world is a tattered mess they wouldn't care because hey, Jesus is there, they don't care about the insignificant details like, oh this trainwreck of a world needs to be cleaned up, either they just don't care because they'll have Jesus and that's enough.. or they assume Jesus will clap His hands and everything is instantly good I guess.
But it's not what the bible shows.
The bible shows a paradise is the end result, and of course in the new creation everything made new, but
there is a period where people are cleaning up bodies for months, like continual employment doing nothing but burials.
and years of burning weapons
and an unknown duration of time of converting weapons to farming implements, etc.

Your millennium seems pointless to me. I prefer the climactic detail of Scripture. When He comes it is all over. The Book is true! No one survives.

 

[Jamdoc]

Your millennium seems pointless to me. I prefer the climactic detail of Scripture. When He comes it is all over. The Book is true! No one survives.

7 months of burials, 7 years of cleanup. That's human activity after Armageddon. That's in the book, and it's true. Thanos snap is not.

 

[sovereigngrace]

7 months of burials, 7 years of cleanup. That's human activity after Armageddon. That's in the book, and it's true. Thanos snap is not.

You can only come up with that my forcing an ancient battle into the future where it does not belong.

Where is the second coming mentioned in Ezekiel 38 and 39?

 

[Jamdoc]

You can only come up with that my forcing an ancient battle into the future where it does not belong.

Where is the second coming mentioned in Ezekiel 38 and 39?

show me where they've found the mass grave of Hamongog.

and show me how God's name isn't getting profaned anymore.

it's not an ancient battle.
it never happened.
you can't find it.
you're relying on a PROPHECY written ahead of time as proof of HISTORY, with no historical corroboration.
It simply doesn't line up.

 

[sovereigngrace]

show me where they've found the mass grave of Hamongog.

and show me how God's name isn't getting profaned anymore.

it's not an ancient battle.
it never happened.
you can't find it.
you're relying on a PROPHECY written ahead of time as proof of HISTORY, with no historical corroboration.
It simply doesn't line up.

Answering a question with a question is a classic divergence! Address what I asked please.

 

[Jamdoc]

Answering a question with a question is a classic divergence! Address what I asked please.

Ezekiel 39 has the same kind of language used for Armageddon, and it's climactic. Ezekiel 38 describes some of the same plagues as the bowls and trumpets.

Ezekiel 38

17 Thus saith the Lord God; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?

First off, God is saying Gog is the same guy that He has warned about throughout the writings of the Prophets. That is.. antichrist.

18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God, that my fury shall come up in my face.
19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord God: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the Lord.

Apocalyptic, with supernatural events of God's wrath, including things like some of the bowls and trumpets, blood (2nd trumpet, 2nd and 3rd bowls), pestilence (1st bowl), hail, fire and brimstone (1st trumpet and 7th trumpet involve these, and 7th bowl). Not saying it's 1:1 but it has a similar supernatural punishment, oh and great Earthquakes as well, which 6th seal involves one of those and a great Earthquake is associated with the Day of the Lord.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Ezekiel 39 has the same kind of language used for Armageddon, and it's climactic. Ezekiel 38 describes some of the same plagues as the bowls and trumpets.

Ezekiel 38

First off, God is saying Gog is the same guy that He has warned about throughout the writings of the Prophets. That is.. antichrist.


Apocalyptic, with supernatural events of God's wrath, including things like some of the bowls and trumpets, blood (2nd trumpet, 2nd and 3rd bowls), pestilence (1st bowl), hail, fire and brimstone (1st trumpet and 7th trumpet involve these, and 7th bowl). Not saying it's 1:1 but it has a similar supernatural punishment, oh and great Earthquakes as well, which 6th seal involves one of those and a great Earthquake is associated with the Day of the Lord.

Stop avoiding. Where is the second coming mentioned in Ezekiel 38 and 39?

 

[Jamdoc]

Stop avoiding. Where is the second coming mentioned in Ezekiel 38 and 39?

It's in those details, in the apocalyptic climactic end of it.

This is not just some battle it involves the supernatural wrath of God and the supper of the Great God.
if every description of the second coming has to have the same details, then where is the darkening of the sun and moon and the resurrection in Revelation 19?
Yet you'll scream up and down that Revelation 19 is the second coming, even though the signs for it are given much earlier.

 

[sovereigngrace]

It's in those details, in the apocalyptic climactic end of it.

This is not just some battle it involves the supernatural wrath of God and the supper of the Great God.
if every description of the second coming has to have the same details, then where is the darkening of the sun and moon and the resurrection in Revelation 19?
Yet you'll scream up and down that Revelation 19 is the second coming, even though the signs for it are given much earlier.

It is NOT a second coming passage. Hello! It is an ancient Old Testament battle/event. John uses it as a symbolic type. Look at the plagues in Egypt. John employs these to impress New Testament truth. It doesn't mean the Old Testament details pertains to the end. You clearly have nothing. Yet I can give you multiple second coming passages that show that Jesus' return is the end.

 

[Jamdoc]

It is NOT a second coming passage. Hello! It is an OT ancient battle/even. John uses it as a symbolic type. Look at the plagues in Egypt. John employs these to impress NT truth. It doesn't mean the OT details pertains to the end. You clearly have nothing. Yet I can give you multiple second coming passages that show that Jesus' return is the end.

OT does not mean historical. There are tons of second coming passages in the OT and you're not helping your case by saying OT = History

There WAS no Ancient Ezekiel 38 and 39 battle
You can't find it
You KNOW you can't find it
It hasn't happened yet.

 

[sovereigngrace]

OT does not mean historical. There are tons of second coming passages in the OT and you're not helping your case by saying OT = History

There WAS no Ancient Ezekiel 38 and 39 battle
You can't find it
You KNOW you can't find it
It hasn't happened yet.

.. yea, and this is not one of them. You know it!