Isaiah 65:17-19 relates to the eternal state not some supposed future millennium

[Jamdoc]

Please stop your name-calling and belittling. It does nothing to advance your argument. It actually diminishes it.

It is estimated that Revelation contains over 500 references to Old Testament events and stories, yet NOT one single direct quote. It is therefore fair to say, the book of Revelation is indecipherable unless one has a reasonable grasp of the Old Testament. After all, most of the symbolism is gleaned from there. It is also necessary to understand the way numbers are used in Scripture. After all, numbers in Scripture are representative of spiritual truths and realities. Most are familiar with consistent and meaningful usage of numbers like 3, 5, 7, 10, 12 and 1000 in the Bible.

Dr. James Fleming further explains: “Ezekiel, Daniel and Zechariah are Old Testament apocalyptic books that use symbolic language for “that day.” These three books influenced the Apocalypse … Of the four hundred and some verses in the book of Revelation, over two hundred are paraphrases of Old Testament verses.”

Whilst the Old Testament mentions end-times and the second coming; it is often written in veiled and obscure detail, mixed and interspersed with ancient events and other historical detail. It is also presented in types and shadows.

Reapplying these Old Testament types and shadows to the New Testament Church age is often the great difficulty that faces most sincere students of this prophetic book. The prophecy is told and understood through the use of symbols that had common meanings among 1st century Jews.

John uses a lot of literal OT names, events, locations to depict NT spiritual truths. Revelation is saturated in symbolic language. The symbols in the apocalypse serve as effective images and tools that are employed by the Holy Spirit to represent spiritual realities and heavenly truths. Revelation is a spiritual lesson using physical imagery to represent greater spiritual realities and heavenly truths. This includes actual spiritual events.

Mal Couch contends: “Revelation follows: “a systematic, hermeneutical approach . . . Signs, symbols, and figures of speech have literal concepts behind them. Because Revelation is very symbolic (though not totally), there are still literal events embedded behind the figure” (Introductory Thoughts on Allegorical Interpretation and the Book of Revelation - Part II).

The seven last plagues bear a striking similarity in places to the ones that fell upon Egypt. There is hardly any doubt that these Old Testament plagues are used as illustrations to represent the ongoing power of God.

Please remember, the children of Israel were not subject to these awful plagues but were actually protected in the midst of them.

One thing you will notice in scripture that when God pours out his wrath, he either protects people in the midst of it or he rescues them out of it.

God always preserves His people in times of hardship. I believe these plagues (lent from Israel's experience in Egypt when God poured out literal plagues in His wrath on the enemy) are used to impress the truth and reality of God's preservation for us today. Yes, God has and does pour out literal plagues, but spiritually the wicked are under constant and ongoing wrath.

But many Old Testament events, locations or realities are used to depict the invisible warfare between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness in the invisible realm.

Yeah, Revelation is as I said, a clearinghouse of old testament prophecy.
and because Revelation is referring to these things, might I offer that if you cannot find a 1:1 match of a historical event to one of the passages of prophecy, that it is NOT a historic event already fulfilled, but rather one that is YET to be fulfilled. Like Ezekiel 38 and 39. You can't pinpoint a historical event, like historians have failed to write down one of the most profound actions of God ever to be witnessed.. to assume that this was fulfilled historically and just never recorded anywhere but before the fact by a prophet, is a path to error. If it had been fulfilled historically, history outside of the bible would corroborate it.
Such as history corroborates that Cyrus the Great ruled Persia and freed the Israelites from captivity. Cyrus the Great, called by name hundreds of years before he was born in the bible, and said what he would do, and he historically did it, and historians do remark that Cyrus did restore people who had been subjugated by the Babylonians, set them free, and had profound religious tolerance as part of his society.

But when History does not corroborate the bible and the text in question contains apocalyptic narrative, such as Ezekiel 38 and 39, I connect it not to historical event, but to the Apocalypse, to the second coming.
... and there is a lot of that in Old Testament Prophecy.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Yeah, Revelation is as I said, a clearinghouse of old testament prophecy.
and because Revelation is referring to these things, might I offer that if you cannot find a 1:1 match of a historical event to one of the passages of prophecy, that it is NOT a historic event already fulfilled, but rather one that is YET to be fulfilled. Like Ezekiel 38 and 39. You can't pinpoint a historical event, like historians have failed to write down one of the most profound actions of God ever to be witnessed.. to assume that this was fulfilled historically and just never recorded anywhere but before the fact by a prophet, is a path to error. If it had been fulfilled historically, history outside of the bible would corroborate it.
Such as history corroborates that Cyrus the Great ruled Persia and freed the Israelites from captivity. Cyrus the Great, called by name hundreds of years before he was born in the bible, and said what he would do, and he historically did it, and historians do remark that Cyrus did restore people who had been subjugated by the Babylonians, set them free, and had profound religious tolerance as part of his society.

But when History does not corroborate the bible and the text in question contains apocalyptic narrative, such as Ezekiel 38 and 39, I connect it not to historical event, but to the Apocalypse, to the second coming.
... and there is a lot of that in Old Testament Prophecy.

I proved it was an ancient battle. You ignored. This is hardly a modern war. The transport is ancient – “horses” (Ezekiel 38:4), the weapons are ancient – “bows and the arrows” (Ezekiel 39:9), the spoil is ancient – “cattle and goods” (Ezekiel 38:13). Of course the Premils suddenly spiritualize all this, after lambasting Amils for years.

 

[Jamdoc]

I proved it was an ancient battle. You ignored. This is hardly a modern war. The transport is ancient – “horses” (Ezekiel 38:4), the weapons are ancient – “bows and the arrows” (Ezekiel 39:9), the spoil is ancient – “cattle and goods” (Ezekiel 38:13). Of course the Premils suddenly spiritualize all this, after lambasting Amils for years.

no none of that proves anything. The prophets could be seeing things symbolically, as you always like to say, what does horses and chariots represent symbolically? Transportation. Bows and arrows? Missile weapons, weapons that strike from a distance. Cattle and goods? Commodities, things that are traded for value.
It could purely be picture.. or
it could be an Ancient man witnessing Mechanized Transportation, and grasping that it is a form of transportation like a horse, or a chariot, because that is what makes sense to them, and wrote it down as such. Nahum 2 describes chariots "jostling" in the streets and being lit like torches and moving like lightning.
I don't believe it impossible that Nahum saw modern mechanized transportation and just .. did the best he could about describing what he saw about these "chariots" moving speedily while lit up like "lightning"

also, how much "all talk, no action" could God get than to make this claim if it was historically fulfilled

7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, the Holy One in Israel.

They profane Jesus pretty much on a daily basis.
in the Talmud they have Jesus boiling in excrement in hell for all of eternity.
what greater profanity could you have? Aside from nailing Him to a cross?

 

[sovereigngrace]

no none of that proves anything. The prophets could be seeing things symbolically, as you always like to say, what does horses and chariots represent symbolically? Transportation. Bows and arrows? Missile weapons, weapons that strike from a distance. Cattle and goods? Commodities, things that are traded for value.
It could purely be picture.. or
it could be an Ancient man witnessing Mechanized Transportation, and grasping that it is a form of transportation like a horse, or a chariot, because that is what makes sense to them, and wrote it down as such. Nahum 2 describes chariots "jostling" in the streets and being lit like torches and moving like lightning.
I don't believe it impossible that Nahum saw modern mechanized transportation and just .. did the best he could about describing what he saw about these "chariots" moving speedily while lit up like "lightning"

also, how much "all talk, no action" could God get than to make this claim if it was historically fulfilled


They profane Jesus pretty much on a daily basis.
in the Talmud they have Jesus boiling in excrement in hell for all of eternity.
what greater profanity could you have? Aside from nailing Him to a cross?

Yea right??? This is the way Premil contradicts itself time and time again. Many testify that they are Premillennial because they take the Word of God literally, yet, when you put their theology to the test the opposite picture unfolds. Premillennialism spiritualizes the literal passages and literalizes the spiritual passages. Their hyper-literalistic approach to highly-figurative Revelation is a case-in-point. Their own hermeneutics actually forbid their beliefs. As Kim Riddlebarger says: “Their own hermeneutics will not bear the weight that is assigned to it … they cannot make good on their own stated hermeneutics”

 

[Jamdoc]

Yea right??? This is the way Premil contradicts itself time and time again. Many testify that they are Premillennial because they take the Word of God literally, yet, when you put their theology to the test the opposite picture unfolds. Premillennialism spiritualizes the literal passages and literalizes the spiritual passages. Their hyper-literalistic approach to highly-figurative Revelation is a case-in-point. Their own hermeneutics actually forbid their beliefs. As Kim Riddlebarger says: “Their own hermeneutics will not bear the weight that is assigned to it … they cannot make good on their own stated hermeneutics”

How would an ancient man describe it if they saw modern warfare play out.
How would he write it down?

We're talking about people riding machines that propel themselves made out of metal that are impervious to most hand held weapons, machines that can fly, machines that can hover in the air and change directions without turning (in fact Ezekiel described the Cherubim doing things like that in Ezekiel 1). Their means of movement their weaponry, how they light up or power themselves, would seem like magic to them.

How would an ancient man describe a great city being destroyed by a nuclear weapon almost instantaneously, if he was witness to it?
I believe Revelation 17 and 18 may be describing that in fact, because scripture says it is the 10 kings (doing God's will) that destroy Babylon, and Babylon is destroyed by fire in one hour and the smoke of her burning can be seen from far away and cause people distress from onboard ships at sea, you know, quite a long distance away. John doesn't say nuclear weapons because he has no idea what that would even be... about the best he can do is describe the destruction, saying it was by fire, the short period of time it took and that the smoke (which could be the mushroom cloud) could be seen for miles and miles away.
It's the only weapon we have currently that could destroy a large city in 1 hour, and the bible is explicit that it is the 10 kings who destroy Babylon, but they do so with God guiding them to do it to fulfill His will.

So that ancient man may try to write down what he saw to the best of his ability at describing it
or
he may write it down in terms he can understand to convey the meaning, things like horses to convey the meaning of transportation.

But I at least believe that John and some of the other prophets, may have been witness to visions of what the world looked like before Jesus returned.. and just not really had the words to describe something so alien to them, and just did the best they could to convey the meaning.
I do not believe that no prophet witnessed anything other than ancient warfare.

 

[sovereigngrace]

How would an ancient man describe it if they saw modern warfare play out.
How would he write it down?

We're talking about people riding machines that propel themselves made out of metal that are impervious to most hand held weapons, machines that can fly, machines that can hover in the air and change directions without turning (in fact Ezekiel described the Cherubim doing things like that in Ezekiel 1). Their means of movement their weaponry, how they light up or power themselves, would seem like magic to them.

How would an ancient man describe a great city being destroyed by a nuclear weapon almost instantaneously, if he was witness to it?
I believe Revelation 17 and 18 may be describing that in fact, because scripture says it is the 10 kings (doing God's will) that destroy Babylon, and Babylon is destroyed by fire in one hour and the smoke of her burning can be seen from far away and cause people distress from onboard ships at sea, you know, quite a long distance away. John doesn't say nuclear weapons because he has no idea what that would even be... about the best he can do is describe the destruction, saying it was by fire, the short period of time it took and that the smoke (which could be the mushroom cloud) could be seen for miles and miles away.
It's the only weapon we have currently that could destroy a large city in 1 hour, and the bible is explicit that it is the 10 kings who destroy Babylon, but they do so with God guiding them to do it to fulfill His will.

So that ancient man may try to write down what he saw to the best of his ability at describing it
or
he may write it down in terms he can understand to convey the meaning, things like horses to convey the meaning of transportation.

But I at least believe that John and some of the other prophets, may have been witness to visions of what the world looked like before Jesus returned.. and just not really had the words to describe something so alien to them, and just did the best they could to convey the meaning.
I do not believe that no prophet witnessed anything other than ancient warfare.

So, the Gog /Magog battle is before the second coming and general judgment?

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire

 

[Jamdoc]

So, the Gog /Magog battle is before the second coming and general judgment?

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire

Possibly. John does mention it there.

Well, kinda yes and no.

See you see an instant nuke of all creation at Christ's return. I see a longer period of Christ executing judgement on Earth.

You see all judgement in the blink of an eye, I see judgement taking time.

Principally what Gog and Magog describes is very similar in language to Armageddon, and it is followed by a period of time spent cleaning up.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Possibly. John does mention it there.

Ok. Agreed. This reinforces the Amil recap view. The second coming is above in blue.

 

[Jamdoc]

Ok. Agreed. This reinforces the Amil recap view. The second coming is above in blue.

Well see the edit.
I had to clarify that we see Jesus' return differently you see instant I see Jesus coming and then doing things, things that take time.

You see Revelation 20 as describing the time between the Cross and the Second coming.
I see Revelation 20 as describing the Day of the Lord, hence my stressing the "Day for the Lord is as 1000 years" where I believe John is getting this 1000 years from.
So it's still "premillennial" in the sense that Jesus comes back before that 1000 year period, or rather I would now say that Jesus' second coming is not followed by a millennium but is the beginning of the "Millennium"

 

[sovereigngrace]

Well see the edit.
I had to clarify that we see Jesus' return differently you see instant I see Jesus coming and then doing things, things that take time.

You see Revelation 20 as describing the time between the Cross and the Second coming.
I see Revelation 20 as describing the Day of the Lord, hence my stressing the "Day for the Lord is as 1000 years" where I believe John is getting this 1000 years from.
So it's still "premillennial" in the sense that Jesus comes back before that 1000 year period, or rather I would now say that Jesus' second coming is not followed by a millennium but is the beginning of the "Millennium"

This does not add up. Rev 20 lasts a lot longer than 1000 years. This blows apart your claims. The wicked overrun your future millennium and are gathered in their billions to surround the camp of the saints.

 

[Jamdoc]

This does not add up. Rev 20 lasts a lot longer than 1000 years. This blows apart your claims. The wicked overrun your future millennium and are gathered in their billions to surround the camp of the saints.

It doesn't say it lasts a "lot" longer than 1000 years. It says after the 1000 years, it is true that that makes it a less defined set of time, but that's also part of my interpretation on it.
Revelation 20 keeps stressing this 1000 years over and over.
It's a significant thing with that much repetition. It's not just some vague period.
But is something specific.
and basically there are 2 ways of looking at this specific.
Either 1. It's a new literal 1000 year period never covered before in the bible.
or 2. It's a reference to the Day of the Lord, which is everywhere in the bible, and John is referring to it by calling it the thousand years.
the amillennial view of it, makes it a non specific, a new vague gap in time that isn't really discussed anywhere in the bible.

That means it doesn't have to be exactly 1000 years, but also means it doesn't have to be exactly 24 hours either.
it's a specific time, but a vague time duration.

again, if you can see Gog/Magog happening at the end of Revelation 20, then there is a 7 year cleanup time after the battle. Not an instant delete button of the entire universe.

 

[sovereigngrace]

It doesn't say it lasts a "lot" longer than 1000 years. It says after the 1000 years, it is true that that makes it a less defined set of time, but that's also part of my interpretation on it.
Revelation 20 keeps stressing this 1000 years over and over.
It's a significant thing with that much repetition. It's not just some vague period.
But is something specific.
and basically there are 2 ways of looking at this specific.
Either 1. It's a new literal 1000 year period never covered before in the bible.
or 2. It's a reference to the Day of the Lord, which is everywhere in the bible, and John is referring to it by calling it the thousand years.
the amillennial view of it, makes it a non specific, a new vague gap in time that isn't really discussed anywhere in the bible.

That means it doesn't have to be exactly 1000 years, but also means it doesn't have to be exactly 24 hours either.
it's a specific time, but a vague time duration.

again, if you can see Gog/Magog happening at the end of Revelation 20, then there is a 7 year cleanup time after the battle. Not an instant delete button of the entire universe.

The ancient battle in Ezekiel is a type of the final end time battle which precedes the coming of Christ followed by the great white throne.

The first resurrection saw the beginning of this symbolic period. A thousand years is indeed figurative number for a large period of time. Satan's season is a short period of insurrection when Satan an the mystery of iniquity will be released to wreak havoc. I believe we are there.

 

[Jamdoc]

The ancient battle in Ezekiel is a type of the final end time battle which precedes the coming of Christ followed by the great white throne.

The first resurrection saw the beginning of this symbolic period. A thousand years is indeed figurative number for a large period of time. Satan's season is a short period of insurrection when Satan an the mystery of iniquity will be released to wreak havoc. I believe we are there.

There was no ancient Ezekiel 38 and 39 battle. There literally was no time where the Jews came back from exile from ALL Nations, got invaded by Persia, Turkey, Ethiopia, and Libya, and God absolutely decimated the entire invasion and they spent 7 years cleaning up the mess and the Jews don't profane God's name anymore.
That never happened.
#1. There's no historical corroboration of this battle
#2. There's no giant mass grave called Hamongog that can currently be excavated to provide evidence of this battle
#3. The Jews, and everyone else, still profanes God's name. God declared that that would not happen after what He does to Gog.

 

[Timtofly]

This does not add up. Rev 20 lasts a lot longer than 1000 years.

Which part? No one interprets Revelation 20 as only speaking of the Day of the Lord. There are other events also mentioned. Your view of Revelation 20 is too narrow, if you only see a symbolic period of time. Indefinite time does not broaden your view.

Would it take a hundred years just for the angel to wrap the symbolic chains around Satan, and only then this Indefinite time starts? Or days just to transport Satan from point A to point B? Why do you make it sound like we are not acknowledging other time and events in Revelation 20? There is a lot more going on in Revelation 20 than the Day of the Lord. There is a lot more going on in Revelation 4 to 20, than just what Peter gives in 2 Peter 3.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Which part? No one interprets Revelation 20 as only speaking of the Day of the Lord. There are other events also mentioned. Your view of Revelation 20 is too narrow, if you only see a symbolic period of time. Indefinite time does not broaden your view.

Would it take a hundred years just for the angel to wrap the symbolic chains around Satan, and only then this Indefinite time starts? Or days just to transport Satan from point A to point B? Why do you make it sound like we are not acknowledging other time and events in Revelation 20? There is a lot more going on in Revelation 20 than the Day of the Lord. There is a lot more going on in Revelation 4 to 20, than just what Peter gives in 2 Peter 3.

You are moving the goal posts again, as Premils have to do to fit their scheme. They want to forget that Satan gets a season at the end that blows apart their 7000 years plan. What is more, they forget that we are already in the millennium with their reasoning, if we take it from Christ's birth, as we do even if it is out 4 years. This also demolishes the Premil scheme.

 

[sovereigngrace]

There was no ancient Ezekiel 38 and 39 battle. There literally was no time where the Jews came back from exile from ALL Nations, got invaded by Persia, Turkey, Ethiopia, and Libya, and God absolutely decimated the entire invasion and they spent 7 years cleaning up the mess and the Jews don't profane God's name anymore.
That never happened.
#1. There's no historical corroboration of this battle
#2. There's no giant mass grave called Hamongog that can currently be excavated to provide evidence of this battle
#3. The Jews, and everyone else, still profanes God's name. God declared that that would not happen after what He does to Gog.

Not true. The Jews did come back from exile. You need to read the OT and NT Scriptures. Gog and Magog do not exist today, unless you are going to spiritualize them too, like you do with other OT Scripture to fit your theology.

The transport is ancient – “horses” (Ezekiel 38:4) and “chariots” (Ezekiel 39:20).
The weapons are ancient – “bows and the arrows” (Ezekiel 39:9).
The protection is ancient "bucklers and shields" (Ezekiel 38:4 & 39:9).
The spoil is ancient – “cattle and goods” (Ezekiel 38:13).

 

[Jamdoc]

Not true. The Jews did come back from exile. You need to read the OT and NT Scriptures. Gog and Magog do not exist today, unless you are going to spiritualize them too, like you do with other OT Scripture to fit your theology.

The transport is ancient – “horses” (Ezekiel 38:4) and “chariots” (Ezekiel 39:20).
The weapons are ancient – “bows and the arrows” (Ezekiel 39:9).
The protection is ancient "bucklers and shields" (Ezekiel 38:4 & 39:9).
The spoil is ancient – “cattle and goods” (Ezekiel 38:13).

They came back from 1 nation, not all nations. The prophets do talk about going to Babylonian captivity, but they also talk about another diaspora that scatters them to all nations, and God regathering them back from all nations. the last 1900 years have been that diaspora, and they are being regathered now.

Gog is a person, or a title of a person
Magog is the land he comes from, and he is also the chief prince of Meschech and Tubal. So Gog is an emperor of multiple ethnic groups
Most of these people groups are given in the form of descendants of Japheth and Ham, Persia is the exception

Genesis 10

1 Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.
2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.
3 And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah.
4 And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.
5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.
6 And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan.
7 And the sons of Cush; Seba, and Havilah, and Sabtah, and Raamah, and Sabtechah: and the sons of Raamah; Sheba, and Dedan.

compare
Ezekiel 38

2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
3 And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
4 And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:
5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:
6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

Now the KJV translates Phut as Libya, and Cush as Ethiopia, as to whether that's accurate is up for debate, in the original, it's Phut and Cush. Persia is the odd one out that is NOT identified by a grandson or great grandson of Noah.
As you know in Ezekiel 38, Sheba and Dedan question the invasion, they're not part of it.
You cannot literally have these names given be specifically to the Grandsons and Great Grandsons of Noah, they were long dead by Ezekiel's day. So it is identifying Ethnicities, people groups, descendants of these descendants of Noah.
Now Persia was an actual empire, a power in Ezekiel's day, but the rest really weren't so they were identified by ancestral names, to give geographic locations, where the descendants of Noah settled, and those would largely be in Turkey for the descendants of Japheth, and North Africa for the descendants of Ham.

I think of key importance that has to be realized is that Ezekiel was not writing history or concurrent events. Ezekiel was writing prophecy things that did not happen yet, but would happen in the future. So Ezekiel writing this, does not prove it a historic event. You would need outside historic records to corroborate that this prophecy was fulfilled.
None exists.
It doesn't make Ezekiel a false prophet. It means what Ezekiel prophecied didn't happen yet

as for the Ancient transportation methods and weapons, there are 3 possibilities.
1. Those descriptions are symbolic and the prophet was shown visions using these symbols
2. The prophet was shown a future war, and simply described things in the best way they knew, seeing things they could not put names to or understand, so they attempted to understand what those things were for, and then used language of their time as an approximation of the meaning.
3. It could be literal, God never says no thermonuclear exchange and mass EMP won't send the world back to the stone age before He returns. What would happen if we're NOT within a few years of the Lord's Return and He tarries, but in the process, global civilization as we know it basically gets wiped out by nuclear war, all technology that runs on electricity doesn't work because EMP has fried it all, and guns run out of ammo and nobody has the skill or material to know how to make more, people would regress to simpler weapons, simpler transportation, etc.
I think that last one least likely of the 3 but it is possible.

 

[sovereigngrace]

They came back from 1 nation, not all nations. The prophets do talk about going to Babylonian captivity, but they also talk about another diaspora that scatters them to all nations, and God regathering them back from all nations. the last 1900 years have been that diaspora, and they are being regathered now.

Gog is a person, or a title of a person
Magog is the land he comes from, and he is also the chief prince of Meschech and Tubal. So Gog is an emperor of multiple ethnic groups
Most of these people groups are given in the form of descendants of Japheth and Ham, Persia is the exception

Genesis 10


compare
Ezekiel 38


Now the KJV translates Phut as Libya, and Cush as Ethiopia, as to whether that's accurate is up for debate, in the original, it's Phut and Cush. Persia is the odd one out that is NOT identified by a grandson or great grandson of Noah.
As you know in Ezekiel 38, Sheba and Dedan question the invasion, they're not part of it.
You cannot literally have these names given be specifically to the Grandsons and Great Grandsons of Noah, they were long dead by Ezekiel's day. So it is identifying Ethnicities, people groups, descendants of these descendants of Noah.
Now Persia was an actual empire, a power in Ezekiel's day, but the rest really weren't so they were identified by ancestral names, to give geographic locations, where the descendants of Noah settled, and those would largely be in Turkey for the descendants of Japheth, and North Africa for the descendants of Ham.

I think of key importance that has to be realized is that Ezekiel was not writing history or concurrent events. Ezekiel was writing prophecy things that did not happen yet, but would happen in the future. So Ezekiel writing this, does not prove it a historic event. You would need outside historic records to corroborate that this prophecy was fulfilled.
None exists.
It doesn't make Ezekiel a false prophet. It means what Ezekiel prophecied didn't happen yet

as for the Ancient transportation methods and weapons, there are 3 possibilities.
1. Those descriptions are symbolic and the prophet was shown visions using these symbols
2. The prophet was shown a future war, and simply described things in the best way they knew, seeing things they could not put names to or understand, so they attempted to understand what those things were for, and then used language of their time as an approximation of the meaning.
3. It could be literal, God never says no thermonuclear exchange and mass EMP won't send the world back to the stone age before He returns. What would happen if we're NOT within a few years of the Lord's Return and He tarries, but in the process, global civilization as we know it basically gets wiped out by nuclear war, all technology that runs on electricity doesn't work because EMP has fried it all, and guns run out of ammo and nobody has the skill or material to know how to make more, people would regress to simpler weapons, simpler transportation, etc.
I think that last one least likely of the 3 but it is possible.

Ezekiel predicted an ancient OT battle that occurred many years ago. John spiritualizes that and applies it to the end. Simple! The literalist has to spiritualize this away, exposing the bias of their own position. This is how Premil operates.

 

[Jamdoc]

Ezekiel predicted an ancient OT battle that occurred many years ago. John spiritualizes that and applies it to the end. Simple! The literalist has to spiritualize this away, exposing the bias of their own position. This is how Premil operates.

You repeating this over and over doesn't make it true.
What would make it true is historical corroboration and a mass grave that could be excavated providing physical evidence.
Neither exist.
It was not an ancient battle it is a future one.

Ezekiel predicted the future and no claim of a specific fulfillment has ever been made.
You're making a horrible assumption.

 

[sovereigngrace]

You repeating this over and over doesn't make it true.
What would make it true is historical corroboration and a mass grave that could be excavated providing physical evidence.
Neither exist.
It was not an ancient battle it is a future one.

Ezekiel predicted the future and no claim of a specific fulfillment has ever been made.
You're making a horrible assumption.

You keep repeating the same error. You are yet to disprove a literal reading of the text.

There is no doubt it is an ancient battle. Are we still fighting with bows and arrows? I do not think so!!!

Pretrib and Postrib Premillennialists identify this passage with Armageddon and the end of their future 7-year great tribulation. The only problem is, if that’s the case, they would be burning weapons seven years into their millennium, which runs contrary to their own teaching. This totally corrupts their supposed future pristine millennium. This simply doesn’t add up.