The trumpets and vials of the Great Tribulation

[Douggg]

There will be 7 trumpet actions that will take place during the Great Tribulation. Those actions are announced by 7 angels what they will be.

The last three of the trumpet actions (i.e. 5, 6, 7) are called "woe to the inhabiters of the earth".

There will also be 7 vials of God's wrath poured out during the Great Tribulation. Generally speaking, those take place in the latter half of the Great Tribulation and several of the vials intensify what had already happened by some of the trumpet actions.

I made this chart timeline as a visual aid.

Before any of you say to me that the 7th trumpet is not before the 5th and 6th, please note what the third woe is. The third woe to the inhabiters of the earth is Satan cast down to earth having great wrath because he knows his time is short, Revelation 12:12. i.e. a time, times, half times. Revelation 12:14.

On the last day of the Great Tribulation, Jesus descends to earth, and destroys those armies in Jerusalem and vicinity that will have gathered to make war on Him. Which is the winepress of God's wrath taking place. Also at the same time, an angel given a sickle in Revelation 14:19-20 destroys the armies in the rest of Israel. You can click on the chart to get a better view.

 

[Logicalpaladin]

The seventh trumpet isn’t before the fifth and the sixth. It’s the last trump. The third woe is the Day of the Lord.

 

[Douggg]

The seventh trumpet isn’t before the fifth and the sixth. It’s the last trump. The third woe is the Day of the Lord.

The seventh trumpet reveals what the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth will be.

The fifth and sixth trumpets had already revealed what the first and second woes would be.

The woe to the inhabiters of the earth will be...

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

 

[tranquil]

There will be 7 trumpet actions that will take place during the Great Tribulation. Those actions are announced by 7 angels what they will be.

The last three of the trumpet actions (i.e. 5, 6, 7) are called "woe to the inhabiters of the earth".

There will also be 7 vials of God's wrath poured out during the Great Tribulation. Generally speaking, those take place in the latter half of the Great Tribulation and several of the vials intensify what had already happened by some of the trumpet actions.

I made this chart timeline as a visual aid.

Before any of you say to me that the 7th trumpet is not before the 5th and 6th, please note what the third woe is. The third woe to the inhabiters of the earth is Satan cast down to earth having great wrath because he knows his time is short, Revelation 12:12. i.e. a time, times, half times. Revelation 12:14.

On the last day of the Great Tribulation, Jesus descends to earth, and destroys those armies in Jerusalem and vicinity that will have gathered to make war on Him. Which is the winepress of God's wrath taking place. Also at the same time, an angel given a sickle in Revelation 14:19-20 destroys the armies in the rest of Israel. You can click on the chart to get a better view.

View attachment 347714

The seventh trumpet isn’t before the fifth and the sixth.

To say more than this is utterly pointless with you.

 

[Douggg]

The seventh trumpet isn’t before the fifth and the sixth.

To say more than this is utterly pointless with you.

The action that the 7th woe trumpet reveals is before the action of the 5th and 6th woe trumpets

The actions of the first six trumpets begin at the early part of the Great Tribulation in Revelation 8 and end near the end in Revelation 9 with trumpet 6, the second woe, of a third of mankind killed by the 200,000,000 man armies of the kings of the east marching toward Israel. Four evil angels will be loosed that day from the Euphrates as spiritual forces presiding over the kings of the east armies.

trumpet 7 is detached from continuing directly within Revelation 9 - because the action it reveals is not chronologically in order.

It takes 3 chapters, Revelation 10, Revelation 11, Revelation 12, to see what action is involved with it.

From Revelation 8:13, we know that the 7th trumpet involves woe to the inhabiters of the earth. So, in reading forward should we encounter text that has that terminology it lets us know what action the 7th trumpet reveals.

From Revelation 10:7, we know in the days of the 7th angel sounding that the mystery of God that he revealed though his servants the prophets will be finished.

From Revelation 11:15, we know that the 7th trumpet action is after the 1260 days of the two witnesses.

From Revelation 11:15-18, we know what the reaction is of those in heaven is when the 7th trumpet sounds.

So we keeping reading, looking for that "woe to the inhabiters of the earth" key phrase.

In Revelation 12:6, we see 1260 days, the same time expression of the two witnesses testimony.

Then in Revelation 12:7-9, we read about a war in heaven taking place which Satan and his angels are cast down to earth.

Then in Revelation 12:12, we finally encounter that key phrase "woe to the inhabiters of the earth" and now know what the woe action of the 7th trumpet reveals. It is Satan cast down to earth having great wrath knowing that his time is short.

How short ? In Revelation 12:14, we read that Satan attempts to overwhelm the woman, but she is protected for a time/times/half time. So that is how long Satan's short time having left is - once he is cast down to earth.

On the 7 year timeline, the time/times/half time comprises the second half of the seven years.

So the 7th trumpet, although numerically, and sequentially, as it appears in the text, is after the 5th and 6th trumpets - the action revealed as it turns out begins before the 5th and 6th trumpets.

 

[Timtofly]

So the 7th trumpet, although numerically, and sequentially, as it appears in the text, is after the 5th and 6th trumpets - the action revealed as it turns out begins before the 5th and 6th trumpets.

This opinion that the 7th Trumpet is out of order, totally dismisses the fact that 7 Thunders happen prior to the 7th Trumpet.

Do you think because the 7 Thunders are sealed, they won't even happen? Why do you just disregard them as if they are not there?

You claim the vials are just an extension of the Trumpets, which also dismisses the 7 Thunders.

The first 6 Trumpets and the 7 Thunders are part of the final harvest as Jesus taught in Matthew 13 and Matthew 25. Jesus and the angels are on the earth for the final harvest. Because the final harvest takes place while humans are physically alive, not after they are physically dead.

The only action of the 7th Trumpet is declaring Jesus is the 7th King of the 7th one world empire, as now all nations are under the direct control of Jesus, because the final harvest declared that a remnant, the wheat, from all nations are now redeemed because of the final harvest. These redeemed humans make up the kingdom of Jesus on the earth. The first 6 Trumpets show God's judgment on those not redeemed. Any human physically alive at the 7th Trumpet not redeemed, has to go through the winepress of God's wrath, which ends their physical life.

 

[Douggg]

This opinion that the 7th Trumpet is out of order, totally dismisses the fact that 7 Thunders happen prior to the 7th Trumpet.

Do you think because the 7 Thunders are sealed, they won't even happen? Why do you just disregard them as if they are not there?

John was told not to write down what the 7 Thunders said. So we don't know anything about them other than John heard seven thunders as voices.

You claim the vials are just an extension of the Trumpets, which also dismisses the 7 Thunders.

No, there is over lap between the Trumpets and Vials.

The first 6 Trumpets and the 7 Thunders are part of the final harvest as Jesus taught in Matthew 13 and Matthew 25. Jesus and the angels are on the earth for the final harvest. Because the final harvest takes place while humans are physically alive, not after they are physically dead.

Tim, quote the passage in Matthew 13 and Matthew 25 that you are referring to.

The parable in Matthew 13 is talking about right before the Great White Throne judgment after the thousand year reign of Christ on this earth is over.

Any human physically alive at the 7th Trumpet not redeemed, has to go through the winepress of God's wrath, which ends their physical life.

The winepress of God's wrath will be in Israel, the day that Jesus returns, as the blood there will run a horse's bridle deep in some places for 1600 furlongs, i.e. 200 miles, the length of Israel.

Revelation 14:
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

 

[Timtofly]

John was told not to write down what the 7 Thunders said. So we don't know anything about them other than John heard seven thunders as voices.


No, there is over lap between the Trumpets and Vials.


Tim, quote the passage in Matthew 13 and Matthew 25 that you are referring to.

The parable in Matthew 13 is talking about right before the Great White Throne judgment after the thousand year reign of Christ on this earth is over.


The winepress of God's wrath will be in Israel, the day that Jesus returns, as the blood there will run a horse's bridle deep in some places for 1600 furlongs, i.e. 200 miles, the length of Israel.

Revelation 14:
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

You cannot ignore the Thunders as if they will not happen. There is no overlap of the vials, because there is no overlap of the Thunders.

The whole chapter of Matthew 13 and 25 is about events on the earth after the Second Coming. Read both chapters.

Matthew 13 happens before the 7th Trumpet sounds, not after the Day of the Lord.

The winepress is the entire earth, not just Israel. Was Noah's Flood, just "Israel", or local on earth in the same ME location?

The whole point is you say that the winepress is the same event in both chapters, thus there has to be overlap. No, one will happen without time extended for 42 months, and the other will happen after an extended 42 months. Neither of them happen at the sane time, because if time is extended, God will do the winepress after, at Armageddon. If Revelation 14 happens, then Armageddon cannot happen 42 months later, because all humanity will already be dead before those 42 months can even start.

The third woe is those 42 months. That is the short time given to Satan to bring about the Abomination of Desolation. If the winepress of Revelation 14 happens, there is no third woe. The 42 months is connected with the 7th Trumpet sounding. You cannot have the 42 months run at the same time as Jesus and the angels are gathering the final harvest.

That would be overlapping your alleged second half, running at the same time as your alleged first half. Why do you run two separate 3.5 years periods consecutively with the 7th Trumpet sounding at the same time as the first 6 Trumpets?

"Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

This woe is God letting Satan set up the AoD for 42 months. Death is guaranteed once one takes the mark and removed from the Lamb's book of life. That is the woe, not physical suffering, but total spiritual damnation. Satan is cast out with his angels during the days of the 7th Trumpet. But it was the 5th Trumpet (the first woe) that loosed those angels from thousands of years in chains of darkness, that allowed them the ability to assult heaven by the 7th Trumpet.

God is ready to kill all humanity, but time is extended if God's foreknowledge determines if any will be beheaded or not. The winepress in Revelation 14 means no one is left to behead, but all who are left are already without hope. Seeing who will be beheaded is the confirmation of the Atonement Covenant per Daniel 9:27. The Atonement is strong to cover all, unless there is none who will be beheaded. The choice to be beheaded is the only reason those 42 months of the third woe is time extended. Once the winepress happens all will be physically dead.

If those 42 months happen, the winepress of Revelation 14 is postponed until the battle of Armageddon. Not overlap or the same event, but an event postponed for 42 months.

Even Zechariah 14 does not give a blood bath where every last person is placed in the winepress of God's wrath. Zechariah 14 allows for a period of the final harvest while Jesus and the angels are on the earth. The remnant of all nations is the wheat gathered. Those living on earth with Jesus during the millennium kingdom do not die in the winepress of God's wrath, and then resurrected. Zechariah 14 is not the battle of Armageddon found in Revelation 19, nor is there a winepress until after the first 6 Trumpets have sounded, and the 7 Thunders have been heard. And the 7th Trumpet does not sound until after the 7 Thunders.

The winepress in Revelation 19 will have fewer people, because obviously after 3.5 years a lot more humans will be physically dead. The third woe is not a "Sunday school picnic". Think about the gleanings of the harvest. Now after 3.5 years, there will be even less gleanings than at the start of the 3.5 years. People will be being beheaded, and people will be killed just for sport. Life will no longer be sacred as more and more take the mark. Even those with the mark can be, and will be killed.

 

[Jamdoc]

Trumpets and Vials are the wrath of God, not great tribulation.
Great Tribulation is over already by the time those roll out.
Prove it to yourself, see what Jesus said about what happens immediately after the tribulation in Matthew 24:29, and compare it with Revelation 6:12-17
and see Revelation 7:14.

Great Tribulation is over before a single trumpet is blown.

 

[oikonomia]

There will be 7 trumpet actions that will take place during the Great Tribulation. Those actions are announced by 7 angels what they will be.

I would teach that though calamities, either natural or supernatural commence from trumpet #1 they are not all
the great tribulation. The great trubulation commences from the 5th trumpet.

So though dramatic world wide events commence for trumpet #1 it is trumpets #5,#6,#7 that encompass "the great tribulation".
I studied closely your chart. Below I will try to give some brief reasons for what I wrote so far as I go along.

The last three of the trumpet actions (i.e. 5, 6, 7) are called "woe to the inhabiters of the earth".

The last three trumpets each correspond to the three woes of Revelation 8:13.

And I saw, and I heard an eagle flying in mid-heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to those who dwell on the earth because of the remaining trumpet sounds of the three angels who are about to trumpet! (Rev. 8:13)

The great tribulation is from
the fifth trumpet - the first woe of woe, woe, woe
the sixth trumpet - the second woe of woe, woe, woe.
the negative contents of the seventh trumpet - the third woe of woe, woe, woe.

"The remaining trumpets of the three angels" are the great tribulation.

The seventh trumpet contains both negative contents and positive contents.
The seventh trumpet's negative contents are the seven bowls.
The seventh trumpet's positive contents is the annoucement of the arrival of the kingdom of Christ for eternity.

We should consider the book of Revelation in two major parts.
And the conclusion to the first part is chapter 11 in the arrival for eternity of Christ's kingdom on earth.

What follows from chapter 12 is the second prophecy revisiting specifically the last 3.5 years of the
closing of the age before Christ's arrival on the surface of the earth to establish His eternal kingdom.

To try to understand chapters 12 - 22 as chronologically following chapter 11 will lead to confusion.
I would teach students of Revelation to consider the conclusion of the book in chapter 11.
And I would teach from chapter 12 to the end a revisiting of what was revealed with special attention
to some matters during the 3.5 last years of the age preceding the millennial kingdom and the eternal age after that.

There will also be 7 vials of God's wrath poured out during the Great Tribulation.

I see it that way also. As for the seven trumpets strictly speaking only the fifth, sixth, and seventh trumpet (the three woes)
comprise the great tribulation. But ALL SEVEN of the seven bowls comprise the great tribulation of the last 3.5 years.
And they probably will happen in quick succession and overlap.

I do not want to be so curious as to be here on earth to find out.
There is the option to view those terrible times from a heavenly viewpoint and come down
with Christ at its end as His army of overcoming ones.

The way Revelation is written is like Russian dolls. When you open up a doll there is another one inside.

The contents of the seventh seal are the seven trumpets. This is like a smaller Russian doll inside a larger one.
The contents of the seventh trumpet are the seven bowls. This also is like a smaller Russian doll inside a larger one.

The is the marvelous design of this book.
When you open up the seventh seal and inside are seven trumpets.
When you open up the seventh trumpet inside are seven bowls.

Generally speaking, those take place in the latter half of the Great Tribulation and several of the vials intensify what had already happened by some of the trumpet actions.

I made this chart timeline as a visual aid.

Before any of you say to me that the 7th trumpet is not before the 5th and 6th, please note what the third woe is. The third woe to the inhabiters of the earth is Satan cast down to earth having great wrath because he knows his time is short, Revelation 12:12. i.e. a time, times, half times. Revelation 12:14.

Here is where it is important to see that the first section of Revelation concludes with chapter 11.
And chapter 12 is a recap or revisiting of the previous section with special focus on some critical matters already shown.

For this reason my correction would be that the 5th trumpet, which is the first woe of the three marks the
event of chapter 12. That is the WOE because Satan has come down to harrass the earth is the same
event told the fifth trumpet.

And I saw, and I heard an eagle flying in mid-heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to those who dwell on the earth because of the remaining trumpet sounds of the three angels who are about to trumpet! (8:13)

And the fifth angel trumpeted, and I saw a star out of heaven fallen to the earth, and to him was given the key of the pit of the abyss. (9:1)

Briefly:
1.) This star is Satan. The same event is recovered in Revelation 12.
Chapter 9 says he fell. But chapter 12 tells more - WHY he fell.

2.) The star that fell is a personage because it says something was given to him.
and to him was given the key of the pit of the abyss.

3.) This "him" of a fallen star opens up the realm of the abyss and allows terrible demonic beings out of it.
This corresponds to the Devil standing on the shore of the sea after being cast out of heaven and summoning up
Antichrist from the abyss and from the sea.

Once again, chapter 12 is revisiting with special focus the event of chapter 9.

Compare the initial sign in chapter 9 with the revisting sign in chapter 12.

And the fifth angel trumpeted, and I saw a star out of heaven fallen to the earth, and to him was given the key of the pit of the abyss. (9:1)

Compare:

Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time. (12:12b) And he stood on the sand of the sea. (12:18) And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns ten diadems, and on his heads names of blasphemy. (13:1)

The beast coming up out of the sea (chapter 13) is the Apollyon and Abaddon as a king over the demons (chapter 9)

They have a king over them, the angel of the abyss; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon; and in Greek he has the name Apollyon.
The first woe has passed; behold, two woes are yet coming after these things. (9:11,12)

Abaddon aka Apollyon is not Satan. He is the one released by Satan to do his worse FOR Satan.
Abaddon aka Apollyion is the beast out of the sea and out of the abyss. That is the Antichrist.

He is allowed to act because the fallen star has been allowed authority to release such a being from the depths of
the abyss, a man not an angel. He is a man released by Satan to be the Antichrist. And he is a king over the demons
that are released from the abyss with him.

 

[Douggg]

Abaddon aka Apollyon is not Satan. He is the one released by Satan to do his worse FOR Satan.
Abaddon aka Apollyion is the beast out of the sea and out of the abyss. That is the Antichrist.

He is allowed to act because the fallen star has been allowed authority to release such a being from the depths of
the abyss, a man not an angel. He is a man released by Satan to be the Antichrist. And he is a king over the demons
that are released from the abyss with him.

They have a king over them, the angel of the abyss; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon; and in Greek he has the name Apollyon.
The first woe has passed; behold, two woes are yet coming after these things. (9:11,12)

Abaddon is an angel not a man. So Abaddon is not the Antichrist.

The beast (king) in Revelation 13 is a man.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

That particular man will have become possessed by a spirit of a former beast that ascends from the bottomless pit. That former beast is the garden of eden serpent beast, used by Satan, to deceive Eve, who convinced Adam to eat with her from the forbidden tree of knowledge of good and evil.

It is critical to understand the five stages the person most often called the Antichrist goes through on the way to his demise.

That person who eventually becomes the beast-king goes through the five stages on the way to his demise of being cast alive into the lake of fire.

1. as the little horn, (as king 7), leader over ten EU leaders.
2. then as the prince who shall come following the Gog/Magog event.
3. then as the Antichrist,temporary King of Israel thought-to-be messiah, by the Jews.
4. then as the revealed man of sin, who claims to have achieved God-hood, end of his time as the Antichrist - phony King of Israel.
5. then as the beast-king (king 8), who is killed for his God-hood claim, but comes back to life as the beast - to be the dictator of the EU.


The king 7 and king 8 designations comes from Revelation 17:10-11 about the person.

Revelation 17:
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

The person must be a Jew. And somewhere in his ancestors be descended from the Julio-Claudian bloodline of the family of Caesars.

 

[Douggg]

The contents of the seventh seal are the seven trumpets. This is like a smaller Russian doll inside a larger one.
The contents of the seventh trumpet are the seven bowls. This also is like a smaller Russian doll inside a larger one.

Likely, as at the seventh trumpet (third woe) sounding, Satan is cast down to earth having a time/times/half time left.

I do not want to be so curious as to be here on earth to find out.
There is the option to view those terrible times from a heavenly viewpoint and come down
with Christ at its end as His army of overcoming ones.

I agree.

I see it that way also. As for the seven trumpets strictly speaking only the fifth, sixth, and seventh trumpet (the three woes)
comprise the great tribulation. But ALL SEVEN of the seven bowls comprise the great tribulation of the last 3.5 years.
And they probably will happen in quick succession and overlap.

No, they all fit within the great tribulation, which begins with the AoD setup. 1335 days long from Daniel 12:12.

 

[Douggg]

You cannot ignore the Thunders as if they will not happen. There is no overlap of the vials, because there is no overlap of the Thunders.

The whole chapter of Matthew 13 and 25 is about events on the earth after the Second Coming. Read both chapters.

Matthew 13 happens before the 7th Trumpet sounds, not after the Day of the Lord.

The winepress is the entire earth, not just Israel. Was Noah's Flood, just "Israel", or local on earth in the same ME location?

The whole point is you say that the winepress is the same event in both chapters, thus there has to be overlap. No, one will happen without time extended for 42 months, and the other will happen after an extended 42 months. Neither of them happen at the sane time, because if time is extended, God will do the winepress after, at Armageddon. If Revelation 14 happens, then Armageddon cannot happen 42 months later, because all humanity will already be dead before those 42 months can even start.

The third woe is those 42 months. That is the short time given to Satan to bring about the Abomination of Desolation. If the winepress of Revelation 14 happens, there is no third woe. The 42 months is connected with the 7th Trumpet sounding. You cannot have the 42 months run at the same time as Jesus and the angels are gathering the final harvest.

That would be overlapping your alleged second half, running at the same time as your alleged first half. Why do you run two separate 3.5 years periods consecutively with the 7th Trumpet sounding at the same time as the first 6 Trumpets?

"Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

This woe is God letting Satan set up the AoD for 42 months. Death is guaranteed once one takes the mark and removed from the Lamb's book of life. That is the woe, not physical suffering, but total spiritual damnation. Satan is cast out with his angels during the days of the 7th Trumpet. But it was the 5th Trumpet (the first woe) that loosed those angels from thousands of years in chains of darkness, that allowed them the ability to assult heaven by the 7th Trumpet.

God is ready to kill all humanity, but time is extended if God's foreknowledge determines if any will be beheaded or not. The winepress in Revelation 14 means no one is left to behead, but all who are left are already without hope. Seeing who will be beheaded is the confirmation of the Atonement Covenant per Daniel 9:27. The Atonement is strong to cover all, unless there is none who will be beheaded. The choice to be beheaded is the only reason those 42 months of the third woe is time extended. Once the winepress happens all will be physically dead.

If those 42 months happen, the winepress of Revelation 14 is postponed until the battle of Armageddon. Not overlap or the same event, but an event postponed for 42 months.

Even Zechariah 14 does not give a blood bath where every last person is placed in the winepress of God's wrath. Zechariah 14 allows for a period of the final harvest while Jesus and the angels are on the earth. The remnant of all nations is the wheat gathered. Those living on earth with Jesus during the millennium kingdom do not die in the winepress of God's wrath, and then resurrected. Zechariah 14 is not the battle of Armageddon found in Revelation 19, nor is there a winepress until after the first 6 Trumpets have sounded, and the 7 Thunders have been heard. And the 7th Trumpet does not sound until after the 7 Thunders.

The winepress in Revelation 19 will have fewer people, because obviously after 3.5 years a lot more humans will be physically dead. The third woe is not a "Sunday school picnic". Think about the gleanings of the harvest. Now after 3.5 years, there will be even less gleanings than at the start of the 3.5 years. People will be being beheaded, and people will be killed just for sport. Life will no longer be sacred as more and more take the mark. Even those with the mark can be, and will be killed.

Tim, your post is too confusing for me to respond to.

 

[oikonomia]

They have a king over them, the angel of the abyss; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon; and in Greek he has the name Apollyon.
The first woe has passed; behold, two woes are yet coming after these things. (9:11,12)

Abaddon is an angel not a man. So Abaddon is not the Antichrist.

I mean he will not be an angel who formerly was in heaven. As a messenger he is an angel making "angel of the abyss"
true in that sense.

His name is given in Greek and in Hebrew. And his number which is "the number of a man" calculates by using Greek letters
and Hebrew letters. Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man; and his number is six hundred sixty-six. (Rev. 13:18)

This guy is a exceedingly terrible man - a total Destroyer of humanity and of even the earth.

And the nations became angry, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to give the reward to Your slaves the prophets and to the saints and to those who fear Your name, to the small and to the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth. (Rev. 11:18)

The beast (king) in Revelation 13 is a man.

Yes. That is the angel of the abyss because part of his being is the body of a contemporary (in those days) man. But the spirit
or immaterial part of his being is from the depths of the abyss and the place of the dead.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

There you go. You seem to not hold that this man is the same as the angel of the abyss. I'd urge you to understand this that way.
But I can only give evidence to support this interpretation.

That particular man will have become possessed by a spirit of a former beast that ascends from the bottomless pit.

That is what I understand also. So the angel of the abyss is a rescusitated human being rather than an angel from heaven who
followed Satan.

Up to this point I am saying what you are saying.

That former beast is the garden of eden serpent beast, used by Satan, to deceive Eve, who convinced Adam to eat with her from the forbidden tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Satan of course was present in the garden. That Satan utilized or possessed in some way a serpent, that is my understanding.
But the beast out of the sea is a man. His close resemblance to the dragon driven out of heaven only shows his
closest association to Satan.

And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns ten diadems, and on his heads names of blasphemy. (Rev. 13:1)

Compare:

And another sign was seen in heaven; and behold, there was a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. And his tail drags away the third part of the stars of heaven, and he cast them to the earth. (Rev. 12:3,4a)


We know that the first MAN - - - was Adam. (1 Cor. 15:45) So the MAN, the angel of the abyss, Abaddon aka Apollyon
did not exist with the first MAN Adam. However Satan, the one who invest his total authority to this man at the end of the age,
was there with the first MAN Adam.

It is critical to understand the five stages the person most often called the Antichrist goes through on the way to his demise.

That person who eventually becomes the beast-king goes through the five stages on the way to his demise of being cast alive into the lake of fire.

1. as the little horn, (as king 7), leader over ten EU leaders.
2. then as the prince who shall come following the Gog/Magog event.
3. then as the Antichrist,temporary King of Israel thought-to-be messiah, by the Jews.
4. then as the revealed man of sin, who claims to have achieved God-hood, end of his time as the Antichrist - phony King of Israel.
5. then as the beast-king (king 8), who is killed for his God-hood claim, but comes back to life as the beast - to be the dictator of the EU.


The king 7 and king 8 designations comes from Revelation 17:10-11 about the person.

Revelation 17:
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

The person must be a Jew. And somewhere in his ancestors be descended from the Julio-Claudian bloodline of the family of Caesars.

Have you andI discussed this very thing before?

I have been persuaded that the Antichrist will not be Jewish but have a Greek background.
However his accomplise, the false prophet, will be Jewish.
That has been the interpretation which has convinced me.

I don't think I'll launch on a big debate on those points.
But I'll read your points objecively.

That Satan in general and his servants go from successive defeats and limitations until they have
absolutely no options left, that I agree with. It is as if Satan and his servants angelic, demonic, and human
use every means available to them to defeat God. Finally they will run out of all schemes and all the ingenious evil
methods they concocted. Then they all will go to the eternal punishment.

Anyway, the Antichrist guy is morally as ugly as the Devil himself, treacherous, terrible, the final most evil person.
One caveat - to fallen human beings he first will look stout, desireable, brilliant, like everything people want to be.

I think I'll leave it right there for now.

 

[Douggg]

I have been persuaded that the Antichrist will not be Jewish but have a Greek background.
However his accomplise, the false prophet, will be Jewish.
That has been the interpretation which has convinced me.

We agree that the false prophet will be Jewish.

But I'll read your points objecively.

That's all I ask for.

One of the many reason that I think the Antichrist will be a Jew is because the concept of the messiah (christ) in Judaism is that he be a great King of Israel. And the person must be a Jew for that to happen.

They also believe that to become that King of Israel the person must be anointed king by a "known" (to use their words) prophet. In similitude to Saul and David being anointed king by Samuel the prophet, and Solomon by Nathan, the prophet.

So in that setting, we have the role of not only the person who becomes the Antichrist, but also the reason why the false prophet is called a false prophet. The false prophet, imo, will be initially thought by the Jews to be the embodiment of Elijah, who the Jews are all expecting to be part of the messianic age startup. And be the "known" prophet the Jews expect to anoint the Antichrist person as King of Israel. (until it all implodes when the Antichrist reveals himself as the man of sin by the 2Thessalonians2:4 act)

I am speculating on who those two persons might be. My eyes are on Zelenski (President of Ukraine), a Jew, and the Yanuka (a young rabbi now in Israel) as the potential false prophet.

Part of my speculation is that as the little horn person, he comes up among ten kings of the Roman Empire region north and west of Israel. Right now Ukraine, lead by Zelenski, is near becoming a full fledged member of the EU. There are some You Tube videos on Ukraine's bid to become a EU member.

Ukraine would be one of the bigger countries in the EU if successful.

If Zelenski is the little horn person, it is interesting that he is not that tall.

Again, speculation on my part. Too early to tell. But if we see Zelenski becoming leader over a pack of ten EU leaders, then that would be big.

_________________________________________________________________________________

Some how the Antichrist makes his presence known of who he is. How do you think that happens ?

 

[Douggg]

His name is given in Greek and in Hebrew. And his number which is "the number of a man" calculates by using Greek letters
and Hebrew letters. Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man; and his number is six hundred sixty-six. (Rev. 13:18)

I have not got that mystery figured out yet. But am praying that God will give me the wisdom.

The flow of the end times events themselves, I think I have that accurately correct on my chart. But not the 666 mystery.

The little horn person becomes the prince who shall come, who then becomes the Antichrist, who then is revealed as the man of sin, and lastly becomes the beast (king). His migration from one role to the next, and the time frames of events, is the formula to putting it all together, in a timeline chart narrative.

 

[oikonomia]

Douggg,

Did you put together that chart yourself?

How did you feel about my saying Revelation was in two major sections?
A dividing line being at the end of chapter 11 and the next section starting from chapter 12?

I would like to examine some importance features which I think help.

For example the central vision that commences the first section the Creator on the throne in chapter 4
opens the first series of visions.

Then the scene of the ark of the testimony at the conclusion of chapter 11 is significant to the commencement
of the section starting at chapter 12.

These two key visions are more about God and His purpose than the identity of the beasts.
Want to talk about that?

 

[Douggg]

Douggg,

Did you put together that chart yourself?

Yes, back in July of 2020.

How did you feel about my saying Revelation was in two major sections?
A dividing line being at the end of chapter 11 and the next section starting from chapter 12?

I think the bulk of Revelation, Chapters 6-19, is about the 7 years leading up to Jesus's return.

Revelation 11 and Revelation 12 each contains the first half and second half of the 7 years. (I think I will make a table of two columns, with the verses of Revelation 11 corresponding to verses in Revelation 12.)

Personally, I would not say that Revelation is in two major sections, with the dividing line being between those two chapters.

These two key visions are more about God and His purpose than the identity of the beasts.
Want to talk about that?

I need some time to work on my table of side by side comparison of the verses of Revelation 11 matching with Revelation 12.

The overall theme (if that is the right word) of the entire bible is the conflict that God has with Satan. In Revelation 10 the mystery of God that He has declared through His servants the prophets is about drawing that conflict to a close in the days of the voice of the seventh angel.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Satan's time will be short when the 7th angel begins to sound. Satan will have only a time, times, half time left.