The Sealed Scroll and Israel's Restoration

[Barraco]

I have been studying a possible interpretation of the seven seals in their relation to the restoration of the nation of Israel. Jesus said in Matthew 24:32-34 that the generation seeing the signs He spoke about earlier in the chapter would not pass away until all those things would be complete. A typical generation, according to Psalm 90:10 is between seventy and eighty years.

Zechariah 6 presents four chariots headed in four directions, each represented by a color, to survey the land in relation to Jerusalem's desolation. Per verse 6, the black horses go north, the white horses go west, and the dappled horses go south. That can only mean that the red horses go east.

If we apply that context and description to the four horsemen in Revelation 6, we can deduce that there purpose is to restore Jerusalem to the promised seed once more. The first horseman rides a white horse west and is given a bow to conquer with. This was Israel, along with his false messiahs, taking over the land of Palestine. The second horseman rides on a red horse east and is given a large sword to take peace away from the earth. This was the Palestinian intifadas that broke every peace treaty Israel made with Palestine. The third horseman rides a black horse north and the rider is given scales to unjustly deny people of food. This was the Gaza Blockade that has been in effect since 2006, which was the year the government of Hamas was voted into power. The fourth horseman, named Death, rides a pale horse south and is followed by the grave. This is the war currently going on in Gaza against Hamas, which has left so many cities an utter desolation and has killed so many people. However, and very importantly, the prosperity of earthly Jerusalem is a wilderness for the residents of heavenly Jerusalem.

Jesus said the gospel of the kingdom would be preached to all nations and then the end would come (Matt 24.14). The fifth seal shows souls of martyrs under the altar questioning when God would avenge them. They see Babylon flourishing and heavenly Jerusalem as a wilderness. They see that the gospel has gone out to all nations and reached Jerusalem again, but the end had not yet come. This indicates that earthly Jerusalem has to fill up its measure of wickedness by persecuting the church. This results in the true and faithful witness of Jesus Christ in earthly Jerusalem, which seals the 144,000 Israelites during the sixth seal.

The sixth seal is the spiritual restoration of earthly Jerusalem because of the testimony during the fifth seal. Zechariah 12 shows that God would pour out a spirit of grace and supplication upon the house of David and Jerusalem after he gives Jerusalem military success against her enemies. Jesus also preached that there would be signs in the heavens and distress upon earth preceding the election of the remnant. In this way, they are given two wings of an eagle to flee to a place prepared for them in the wilderness, earthly Jerusalem. This is a tell that Jacob's Distress is not part of the sixth seal. Rather it is the judgment of the surrounding nations and the spiritual healing of the elect remnant.

Thoughts?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Jesus said in Matthew 24:32-34 that the generation seeing the signs He spoke about earlier in the chapter would not pass away until all those things would be complete. A typical generation, according to Psalm 90:10 is between seventy and eighty years.

The generation He was speaking of was His own. This makes it entirely different and forces us to accept that He was speaking to His generation about the destruction of Jerusalem is 70AD.

Matthew 24
34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

Blessings

 

[RandyPNW]

I have been studying a possible interpretation of the seven seals in their relation to the restoration of the nation of Israel. Jesus said in Matthew 24:32-34 that the generation seeing the signs He spoke about earlier in the chapter would not pass away until all those things would be complete. A typical generation, according to Psalm 90:10 is between seventy and eighty years.

Zechariah 6 presents four chariots headed in four directions, each represented by a color, to survey the land in relation to Jerusalem's desolation. Per verse 6, the black horses go north, the white horses go west, and the dappled horses go south. That can only mean that the red horses go east.

If we apply that context and description to the four horsemen in Revelation 6, we can deduce that there purpose is to restore Jerusalem to the promised seed once more. The first horseman rides a white horse west and is given a bow to conquer with. This was Israel, along with his false messiahs, taking over the land of Palestine. The second horseman rides on a red horse east and is given a large sword to take peace away from the earth. This was the Palestinian intifadas that broke every peace treaty Israel made with Palestine. The third horseman rides a black horse north and the rider is given scales to unjustly deny people of food. This was the Gaza Blockade that has been in effect since 2006, which was the year the government of Hamas was voted into power. The fourth horseman, named Death, rides a pale horse south and is followed by the grave. This is the war currently going on in Gaza against Hamas, which has left so many cities an utter desolation and has killed so many people. However, and very importantly, the prosperity of earthly Jerusalem is a wilderness for the residents of heavenly Jerusalem.

Jesus said the gospel of the kingdom would be preached to all nations and then the end would come (Matt 24.14). The fifth seal shows souls of martyrs under the altar questioning when God would avenge them. They see Babylon flourishing and heavenly Jerusalem as a wilderness. They see that the gospel has gone out to all nations and reached Jerusalem again, but the end had not yet come. This indicates that earthly Jerusalem has to fill up its measure of wickedness by persecuting the church. This results in the true and faithful witness of Jesus Christ in earthly Jerusalem, which seals the 144,000 Israelites during the sixth seal.

The sixth seal is the spiritual restoration of earthly Jerusalem because of the testimony during the fifth seal. Zechariah 12 shows that God would pour out a spirit of grace and supplication upon the house of David and Jerusalem after he gives Jerusalem military success against her enemies. Jesus also preached that there would be signs in the heavens and distress upon earth preceding the election of the remnant. In this way, they are given two wings of an eagle to flee to a place prepared for them in the wilderness, earthly Jerusalem. This is a tell that Jacob's Distress is not part of the sixth seal. Rather it is the judgment of the surrounding nations and the spiritual healing of the elect remnant.

Thoughts?

You include a lot of prophecies that are genuine, but not related, in context, to the 7 Seal Vision. For example, the 5th Seal is all about martyrs, but you have this all about the Gospel being preached to all nations. And the 6th Seal is about final judgment on earth, and you have this all about the deliverance of Israel from her enemies. These things may be related in some ways, but I prefer to focus on the particular context of the Vision I'm looking at.

For me, the 7 Seal Vision has to do with Christ unlocking the way for his People to obtain God's Kingdom on earth. The old creation, with its 6 days and 7th day of rest, has been locked up by Man's rebellion. The angels guard the way back to the Tree of Life. But Christ unlocked the path back to life legally, by dying on the cross and offering the Gospel to all who commit to it. And so, these 7 Seals are unlocked, showing the state of the earth in which the Gospel prevails among some and gives Eternal Life to those who accept the Gospel.

The 4 Horsemen are similar to Zechariah's horses, who represented the state of the world when Israel was restored from captivity. But in the case of the 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse, it is the international Church being saved from death, and the state of the world is every bit as troubled as it was in the time Israel was restored from captivity.

There are aggressive armies conquering peoples who do not submit to God. There is no peace in a world that seeks to build unity apart from God. There is the curse of famine and plague for those who live lives apart from Christ, who choose to live independent of him. And the result is that the world heads head first into judgment, leading to the blowing of the trumpets heralding God's Kingdom. And it is evident that there is some kind of final judgment poured out at the time of Christ's Coming.

I do agree that Israel will be restored. In reality she has been in a NT captivity, of sorts, since the generation in which Jesus said, "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." That event he spoke of was the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, which led to the Jewish Diaspora, a long NT judgment upon the Jewish People, which will not fully end until Christ returns.

The "Babylon" that rules in the present age is the Roman Imperial System, which has been in place since ancient Rome. It is now represented by European Civilization. And though it has been captured by the Gospel for hundreds of years, the trend has been a return to pagan Rome, which I believe is the great apostacy represented by the Antichrist in Dan 7. Just my bit...

 

[Barraco]

You include a lot of prophecies that are genuine, but not related, in context, to the 7 Seal Vision. For example, the 5th Seal is all about martyrs, but you have this all about the Gospel being preached to all nations. And the 6th Seal is about final judgment on earth, and you have this all about the deliverance of Israel from her enemies. These things may be related in some ways, but I prefer to focus on the particular context of the Vision I'm looking at.

For me, the 7 Seal Vision has to do with Christ unlocking the way for his People to obtain God's Kingdom on earth. The old creation, with its 6 days and 7th day of rest, has been locked up by Man's rebellion. The angels guard the way back to the Tree of Life. But Christ unlocked the path back to life legally, by dying on the cross and offering the Gospel to all who commit to it. And so, these 7 Seals are unlocked, showing the state of the earth in which the Gospel prevails among some and gives Eternal Life to those who accept the Gospel.

The 4 Horsemen are similar to Zechariah's horses, who represented the state of the world when Israel was restored from captivity. But in the case of the 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse, it is the international Church being saved from death, and the state of the world is every bit as troubled as it was in the time Israel was restored from captivity.

There are aggressive armies conquering peoples who do not submit to God. There is no peace in a world that seeks to build unity apart from God. There is the curse of famine and plague for those who live lives apart from Christ, who choose to live independent of him. And the result is that the world heads head first into judgment, leading to the blowing of the trumpets heralding God's Kingdom. And it is evident that there is some kind of final judgment poured out at the time of Christ's Coming.

I do agree that Israel will be restored. In reality she has been in a NT captivity, of sorts, since the generation in which Jesus said, "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." That event he spoke of was the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, which led to the Jewish Diaspora, a long NT judgment upon the Jewish People, which will not fully end until Christ returns.

The "Babylon" that rules in the present age is the Roman Imperial System, which has been in place since ancient Rome. It is now represented by European Civilization. And though it has been captured by the Gospel for hundreds of years, the trend has been a return to pagan Rome, which I believe is the great apostacy represented by the Antichrist in Dan 7. Just my bit...

Fifth seal is not about the martyrs and more martyrdom. It is about waiting for God's vengeance on their killers, which will not occur until the two witnesses are martyred.

The sixth seal is not about God's judgment on all nations, but rather on the nations that have dispossessed Jacob. The sealed scroll is God's judgment on all nations. The seals themselves are the judgments on the possessors of the promised land.

The sixth seal is a combination of four Old Testament passages that focus on God's judgment on occupiers and restoration to the seed of Jacob. See below:

1. Isaiah 34, which talks about the judgment of Edom and surrounding nations (not the world). Verse 4 says, "And all the host of heaven will wear away, and the sky will be rolled up like a scroll; all their hosts will also wither way as a leaf withers from the vine, or as one withers from the fig tree. For My sword is satiated in heaven, Behold it shall descend for judgment upon Edom and upon the people whom I have devoted for destruction." (NASB1995)

2. Joel 2, which talks about signs in the heavens AFTER God restores Israel. Verses 29b through 32 say, "I will pour out My Spirit in those days. I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, blood, fire and columns of smoke. The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood BEFORE the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD will be delivered; for on MOUNT ZION and in JERUSALEM there will be those who escape, as the LORD has said, even among the survivors whom the LORD calls."

3. Isaiah 2 talks about the universal reign of God over all. It speaks of the coming judgment. It is not the judgment itself. There is also a chiasm, which Revelation quotes. Isaiah 2:19-21, "Men will go into caves of the rocks and into holes of the ground BEFORE the terror of the LORD and the splendor of His majesty, when HE arises to make the earth tremble. In that day men will cast away to the moles and the bats their idols of silver and their idols of gold, which they made for themselves to worship, in order to go into the caverns of the rocks and the clefts of the cliffs BEFORE the terror of the LORD and the splendor of His majesty, when He arises to make the earth tremble."

4. Hosea 10 talks about retribution for Israel's sin, which was idolatry and false religion. In context to the surrounding passages, it suggests that Israel turns away from ungodliness and destroys the idolatry within its borders. This means destruction and sorrow for those who practice idolatry. Hosea 10:8, "Also the high places of Aven, the sin of Israel, will be destroyed; thorn and thistle will grow on their altars; then they will say to the mountains, 'Cover us!' And to the hills, 'Fall on us!'"

These four passages come together to describe that the full restoration of Israel and Jerusalem spells destruction and fear for the nations surrounding Israel. Israel was originally given the promised land BECAUSE the inhabitants were wicked. In the same vein, Israel's restoration spells judgment for those who have dispossessed them and continue to attack them.

 

[RandyPNW]

Fifth seal is not about the martyrs and more martyrdom. It is about waiting for God's vengeance on their killers, which will not occur until the two witnesses are martyred.

Well yes, I would argue that both martyrdom and waiting are mentioned in the 5th Seal. Since the martyrs are told that more martyrdom is coming, I would disagree with you that this is not about martyrdom.

The sixth seal is not about God's judgment on all nations, but rather on the nations that have dispossessed Jacob.

The 6th Seal does not mention Jacob at all. I do not believe it is legitimate to interpret a prophecy using certain language by other prophecies that use similar language--not unless there is specific inference that the same prophecy is being referred to.

People can hide away in caves in more than one judgment. One prophecy in which people hid in caves may have been in connection with Israel. Another prophecy in which people hide in caves may have to do with many nations, instead of just Israel.

We need specific words to determine the context. Israel is *not* mentioned.

The sealed scroll is God's judgment on all nations. The seals themselves are the judgments on the possessors of the promised land.

You are reading this into the text. In John's time he was addressing 7 specific historical churches in Asia Minor. These were not "Israel." They were not being told primarily of Israel's restoration, but more, of the events that precede that in the present age. Israel's restoration follows in the next age.

The sixth seal is a combination of four Old Testament passages that focus on God's judgment on occupiers and restoration to the seed of Jacob. See below:

You are equating different prophecies just because they use similar language. That is not legitimate. If we *know* they are referring to the same thing, fine. But in all likelihood at least some of them represent different events.

1. Isaiah 34, which talks about the judgment of Edom and surrounding nations (not the world). Verse 4 says, "And all the host of heaven will wear away, and the sky will be rolled up like a scroll; all their hosts will also wither way as a leaf withers from the vine, or as one withers from the fig tree. For My sword is satiated in heaven, Behold it shall descend for judgment upon Edom and upon the people whom I have devoted for destruction." (NASB1995)

This was an ancient fulfillment in the time of Edom, which no longer exists.

2. Joel 2, which talks about signs in the heavens AFTER God restores Israel.

I don't see signs following Israel's *final* restoration. Israel, of course, had been restored from the Babylonian Captivity by the time Peter quoted this passage. That's when God began to predict the end of the world empire that had been suppressing and persecuting Israel.

The Church, which began in Israel and expanded into all nations, was then given a vision of future judgment upon the nations that suppress and persecute the international Church. Joel begins with Israel and ends, I think, with the international Church.

3. Isaiah 2 talks about the universal reign of God over all. It speaks of the coming judgment. It is not the judgment itself.

Isaiah appears to be talking about Israel's final restoration, which follows international judgment. When Christ returns, to save Israel and to save all of his people, he will decisively end the world's authority to oppress Christianity. And Israel will become, I believe, a Christian nation.

4. Hosea 10 talks about retribution for Israel's sin, which was idolatry and false religion.

Hosea was talking about ancient Israel. Jesus applied the same lesson to the pagan world in the book of Revelation. This was certainly not primarily about Israel, but much more, about the entire world system. It will be judged, and the international Church will bs saved. That is, I believe, the message of Revelation.

 

[Barraco]

Well yes, I would argue that both martyrdom and waiting are mentioned in the 5th Seal. Since the martyrs are told that more martyrdom is coming, I would disagree with you that this is not about martyrdom.

The 6th Seal does not mention Jacob at all. I do not believe it is legitimate to interpret a prophecy using certain language by other prophecies that use similar language--not unless there is specific inference that the same prophecy is being referred to.

People can hide away in caves in more than one judgment. One prophecy in which people hid in caves may have been in connection with Israel. Another prophecy in which people hide in caves may have to do with many nations, instead of just Israel.

We need specific words to determine the context. Israel is *not* mentioned.

You are reading this into the text. In John's time he was addressing 7 specific historical churches in Asia Minor. These were not "Israel." They were not being told primarily of Israel's restoration, but more, of the events that precede that in the present age. Israel's restoration follows in the next age.

You are equating different prophecies just because they use similar language. That is not legitimate. If we *know* they are referring to the same thing, fine. But in all likelihood at least some of them represent different events.

This was an ancient fulfillment in the time of Edom, which no longer exists.

I don't see signs following Israel's *final* restoration. Israel, of course, had been restored from the Babylonian Captivity by the time Peter quoted this passage. That's when God began to predict the end of the world empire that had been suppressing and persecuting Israel.

The Church, which began in Israel and expanded into all nations, was then given a vision of future judgment upon the nations that suppress and persecute the international Church. Joel begins with Israel and ends, I think, with the international Church.

Isaiah appears to be talking about Israel's final restoration, which follows international judgment. When Christ returns, to save Israel and to save all of his people, he will decisively end the world's authority to oppress Christianity. And Israel will become, I believe, a Christian nation.

Hosea was talking about ancient Israel. Jesus applied the same lesson to the pagan world in the book of Revelation. This was certainly not primarily about Israel, but much more, about the entire world system. It will be judged, and the international Church will bs saved. That is, I believe, the message of Revelation.

All good points. There are other things causing me to interpret this way. I don't want anyone to think that I see Israel's restoration in a purely favorable way. I believe this is necessary for the coming of the false messiah that Jesus said would come as well as the shattering of the power of the holy people that Daniel 12 spoke about. Since the days of Saul, the Israelites have rejected God as their king, seeking out someone who represented the most elite and favored of their own culture to the rest of the nations. They want it, they'll get it.

It's not hard to fathom that the false messiah would come from among the Jews in Israel and capitalize on their success. The rabbis seek their "moschiac now". Remember that the nation of Israel did not slide into idolatry until AFTER David died. David had conquered all Israel's enemies, but Solomon played the harlot with them. I believe prophecy points to that repeated pattern in the end.

We know that the elect remnant are sealed during the sixth seal (Rev 7:1-8) and that the time of Jacob's Distress would be shortened for the sake of the elect (Matt 24:22). So if we look at the above evidence, the sixth seal is not the judgment. Rather, there is a protection for them as long as the scroll is sealed (because the four winds are held back BEFORE the seventh seal is opened). So this shows the Israel and Jerusalem are at least at peace at that point.

Additionally, several OT passages support the interpretation that Israel will be restored and will defeat the surrounding nations when they gather against him. Ezekiel 36-38, Zechariah 12, and Joel 2-3.

But back to the four passages I quoted. Is you look at Isaiah 34, there is no other place in Scripture that talks about the sky rolling up like a scroll. I do not believe it was coincidental or comparable to any other passage. Edom was the brother of Jacob, who hated Israel and wanted his birthright back. Edom assisted Nebuchadnezzar to some degree in plundering the Jews, drawing deep resentment for this. Edom, in this case, can be more than just the territory. It can be the hatred that Edom had for Jacob. And we know the groups of peoples that harness that hatred in their hearts toward Jews today. Quds, Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah, Houthi, Muslim Brotherhood, and ISIS. It's not so much that they want the land of Israel. They just don't want Jews there.

Ezekiel 36:5-10 shows what Edom was punished: therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Surely in the fire of My jealousy I have spoken agains the rest of the nations, and against all Edom, who appropriated My land for themselves as a possession with wholehearted joy and with scorn of soul, to drive it out for a prey." Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel and say to the mountains and to the hills, to the ravines and to the valleys, "Thus says the Lord GOD, 'Behold, I have spoken in My jealousy and in My wrath because you have endured the insults of the nations.' Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, 'Have sword that surely the nations which are around you will themselves endure their insults. But you, O mountains of Israel, you will put forth your branches and bear your fruit for My people; for they will soon come. For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn to you, and you will be cultivated and sown. I will multiply men on you, all the house of Israel, all of it; and the cities will be inhabited and the waste places will be rebuilt."

So if you put these passages together, in light of what I showed above, there is strong support for the interpretation that the surrounding nations, who carry the hatred of Edom toward Israel, will be defeated during the sixth seal and Israel will restored BEFORE Jacob's Distress.

I look forward to your thoughts on this.

 

[RandyPNW]

All good points. There are other things causing me to interpret this way. I don't want anyone to think that I see Israel's restoration in a purely favorable way. I believe this is necessary for the coming of the false messiah that Jesus said would come as well as the shattering of the power of the holy people that Daniel 12 spoke about. Since the days of Saul, the Israelites have rejected God as their king, seeking out someone who represented the most elite and favored of their own culture to the rest of the nations. They want it, they'll get it.

True, I think that God will save Israel by building a new Christian Israel out of a rather small remnant of believers and converts to the Christian faith. Unbelievers who have stood in opposition to Christianity will be judged and removed, in my opinion.

But all Israel deserves a chance to make their own individual determination as to where they stand. And so I wouldn't in the least call for destruction of the Jewish State as so many today appear to be doing!

They are the beloved descendants of Abraham, their father. God will preserve some of them for the sake of His promise to Abraham. He will preserve a nation, as he promised.

It's not hard to fathom that the false messiah would come from among the Jews in Israel and capitalize on their success. The rabbis seek their "moschiac now". Remember that the nation of Israel did not slide into idolatry until AFTER David died. David had conquered all Israel's enemies, but Solomon played the harlot with them. I believe prophecy points to that repeated pattern in the end.

Well, David presided over a flaky kingdom just like Solomon. David had his own sins, as well.

But yes, Solomon tried to create a lasting peace among the surrounding nations by marrying into them. Bad idea. The Kingdom was divided later because of this spiritual infidelity, despite the incredible wisdom and primary spirituality of Solomon. He was simply weak towards compromise.

We know that the elect remnant are sealed during the sixth seal (Rev 7:1-8) and that the time of Jacob's Distress would be shortened for the sake of the elect (Matt 24:22).

As far as I know, Israel has been in distress since 70 AD. It's called the Jewish Diaspora.

The sealing of the 144,000 is obviously an event being represented symbolically. There are no Jewish tribes now, and haven't been for many centuries.

In fact, tribes became unimportant as the Kingdom evolved into a nation, which was the original idea. Tribal differences remained important for genealogical purposes, but the boundaries became unimportant.

So why are the 12 tribes distinguished in Rev 7? It is to show that Israel continues to exist, in the NT age, as the true heritage of all 12 tribes, fulfilling God's promise to Abraham. The number 144,000 indicates the size of a large military remnant of a nation. Perhaps there is significance in that?

So if we look at the above evidence, the sixth seal is not the judgment. Rather, there is a protection for them as long as the scroll is sealed (because the four winds are held back BEFORE the seventh seal is opened). So this shows the Israel and Jerusalem are at least at peace at that point.

I see the 6th Seal as anticipatory. It is presenting the event as if it is already happening. That kind of vision is called a "prolepsis."

These visions aren't always designed to be chronologies of historical events happening one after the other. More often they are overlapping visions showing the same basic scenario from different vantage points. The 6th Seal bleeds into the 7th Seal, which has all 7 Trumpets bleeding into the coming of Christ's Kingdom.

Additionally, several OT passages support the interpretation that Israel will be restored and will defeat the surrounding nations when they gather against him. Ezekiel 36-38, Zechariah 12, and Joel 2-3.

I agree.

But back to the four passages I quoted. Is you look at Isaiah 34, there is no other place in Scripture that talks about the sky rolling up like a scroll. I do not believe it was coincidental or comparable to any other passage. Edom was the brother of Jacob, who hated Israel and wanted his birthright back. Edom assisted Nebuchadnezzar to some degree in plundering the Jews, drawing deep resentment for this. Edom, in this case, can be more than just the territory. It can be the hatred that Edom had for Jacob. And we know the groups of peoples that harness that hatred in their hearts toward Jews today. Quds, Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah, Houthi, Muslim Brotherhood, and ISIS. It's not so much that they want the land of Israel. They just don't want Jews there.

You may be right. Edom may symbolize Israel's hostile neighborhood, or depict an Edom-like environment, which will be destroyed by God in judgment.

Ezekiel 36:5-10 shows what Edom was punished: therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Surely in the fire of My jealousy I have spoken agains the rest of the nations, and against all Edom, who appropriated My land for themselves as a possession with wholehearted joy and with scorn of soul, to drive it out for a prey." Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel and say to the mountains and to the hills, to the ravines and to the valleys, "Thus says the Lord GOD, 'Behold, I have spoken in My jealousy and in My wrath because you have endured the insults of the nations.' Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, 'Have sword that surely the nations which are around you will themselves endure their insults. But you, O mountains of Israel, you will put forth your branches and bear your fruit for My people; for they will soon come. For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn to you, and you will be cultivated and sown. I will multiply men on you, all the house of Israel, all of it; and the cities will be inhabited and the waste places will be rebuilt."

That may be.

So if you put these passages together, in light of what I showed above, there is strong support for the interpretation that the surrounding nations, who carry the hatred of Edom toward Israel, will be defeated during the sixth seal and Israel will restored BEFORE Jacob's Distress.

I look forward to your thoughts on this.

I agree that is possible and maybe likely that these are endtime prophecies. But I don't see final judgment until Christ's 2nd Coming.

There is divine judgment all throughout the present age. But it will become more intense at the end, at the point where Christ will return.

I don't see the 6th Seal as anything other than a prolepsis, showing what will happen during the 7th Seal, with its 7 Trumpets. They all depict a last day scenario in which the world, hostile to Christianity, will be gathered into a final conflagration, perhaps WW3? It has to be a major nuclear war, as Revelation depicts the major cities of the nations falling in a single hour.

 

[Barraco]

True, I think that God will save Israel by building a new Christian Israel out of a rather small remnant of believers and converts to the Christian faith. Unbelievers who have stood in opposition to Christianity will be judged and removed, in my opinion.

But all Israel deserves a chance to make their own individual determination as to where they stand. And so I wouldn't in the least call for destruction of the Jewish State as so many today appear to be doing!

They are the beloved descendants of Abraham, their father. God will preserve some of them for the sake of His promise to Abraham. He will preserve a nation, as he promised.

Agreed. Zechariah 13:8-9 suggests that 1/3 of the Israelites will be purified while 2/3rd will be annihilated. This, I believe, is what Jacob's Distress is about.

Well, David presided over a flaky kingdom just like Solomon. David had his own sins, as well.

But yes, Solomon tried to create a lasting peace among the surrounding nations by marrying into them. Bad idea. The Kingdom was divided later because of this spiritual infidelity, despite the incredible wisdom and primary spirituality of Solomon. He was simply weak towards compromise.

Agreed. David was flaky, just as the current regime is flaky. But David was also a warrior that subdued all Israel's neighboring enemies. Solomon did not have a heart after God's own heart like his father though. 1 Kings 10 shows us something revealing about Solomon that can easily be missed. Aside from his income of gold in one year being 666 talents, he spent a great amount of his wealth elevating his kingship. Solomon's house was larger than God's temple (1 King 7:1-12).

As far as I know, Israel has been in distress since 70 AD. It's called the Jewish Diaspora.

Well, yes. Daniel 12, Zechariah 14, and Zephaniah 3 seem to suggest that this will happen just prior to the coming of Jesus.

The sealing of the 144,000 is obviously an event being represented symbolically. There are no Jewish tribes now, and haven't been for many centuries.

There are biblical references to the 144,000 that comes from 1 Chronicles chapters 25 and 27. Some of it may sound familiar to you. In chapter 25, there were 288 Levitical musicians (v. 7) in the temple that, when making music, would do so by prophesying a song (v. 1) nobody else could learn (because it was prophecy). In chapter 27, the king's army consisted of a monthly rotation of 24,000 guards (totaling 288,000 per year).

So why 144,000 and not 288,000? Honestly, I don't know yet. Perhaps you could expand on it? But I know the connection is uncanny.

Revelation speaks of two kinds of witnesses and two groups of believers: Testifying and Obedience, Priests and a Kingdom. We see these two groups come together in Revelation 7 and 11, bringing both types of witnessing in their own respect. The elect are undefiled and follow Jesus wherever He goes, testifying through obedience to God's commands (Rev 14:4). The martyrs testify by holding to the testimony of Jesus, being given white robes of righteousness by the covering of their sins by the blood of Jesus (fifth seal of Rev 6, great multitude coming out of great tribulation in Rev 7).

The church in Smyrna witnessed of Jesus by testifying of His name, especially when it would cost them their lives (Rev 2). The church in Philadelphia witnessed of Jesus by keeping his commands (Rev 3). The offspring of the woman in Revelation 12:17 are those that keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. The Two Witnesses in Revelation 11 plagued the nations with plagues similar to Moses and Elijah. Moses delivered God's commandments to the Israelites and Elijah testified before the idolators who the true God was.

We know that Revelation 14 describes the 144,000 as singing a song only they could learn. Now we know why. But what about the king's army? Jesus said in Matthew 24 that the elect would be gathered from the four winds of heaven when He returns. They are the Lord's army that returns with Jesus when slays the armies of the nations at the final battle.

In fact, tribes became unimportant as the Kingdom evolved into a nation, which was the original idea. Tribal differences remained important for genealogical purposes, but the boundaries became unimportant.

Agreed. All the tribes of Israel have been dispersed over the last three millennia and mingled with all the nations of the world. And that is the profound nuance of Revelation 7. They are a specific group of people dwell in the land of Israel specifically, regardless of former boundaries. This is the clearest indication, IMO, that the nation of Israel would be restored in the land God promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

So why are the 12 tribes distinguished in Rev 7? It is to show that Israel continues to exist, in the NT age, as the true heritage of all 12 tribes, fulfilling God's promise to Abraham. The number 144,000 indicates the size of a large military remnant of a nation. Perhaps there is significance in that?

I agree. I think I've shown a significant connection of them being the Lord's army to 1 Chronicles 27.

I see the 6th Seal as anticipatory. It is presenting the event as if it is already happening. That kind of vision is called a "prolepsis."

Possibly. I do believe there are events occurring at that point. These seals are prerequisites to the reading of the scroll, which is God's judgment.

These visions aren't always designed to be chronologies of historical events happening one after the other. More often they are overlapping visions showing the same basic scenario from different vantage points. The 6th Seal bleeds into the 7th Seal, which has all 7 Trumpets bleeding into the coming of Christ's Kingdom.

But the seals are sequential. I see what you are saying though. I think they definitely do not cease until the sixth seal is opened, just as Jesus explained in Matthew 24.

You may be right. Edom may symbolize Israel's hostile neighborhood, or depict an Edom-like environment, which will be destroyed by God in judgment.

Ezekiel 35:10 also indicates emphasizes this point: "Because you said, 'These two nations and the two countries shall be mine, and we will take possession of them' although the LORD was there." Iran, Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Yemen...none of them care about the Palestinians. They just don't Jews living there. My hope is that many of the Arabs there can be saved before desolation comes their way.

I agree that is possible and maybe likely that these are endtime prophecies. But I don't see final judgment until Christ's 2nd Coming.

There is divine judgment all throughout the present age. But it will become more intense at the end, at the point where Christ will return.

Agreed.

I don't see the 6th Seal as anything other than a prolepsis, showing what will happen during the 7th Seal, with its 7 Trumpets. They all depict a last day scenario in which the world, hostile to Christianity, will be gathered into a final conflagration, perhaps WW3? It has to be a major nuclear war, as Revelation depicts the major cities of the nations falling in a single hour.

Perhaps. Ezekiel 38, Isaiah 34, Zechariah 12, and Joel 3 all suggest a great battle between Israel and the surrounding nations. This, I believe, is different from the battle of Armageddon (which is captured in Zechariah 14). I suppose time will tell. I really do think Israel's restoration and Edom's desolation is our sign to be encouraged to bare a faithful witness in these ominous and perilous times.