The trumpets and vials of the Great Tribulation

[oikonomia]

Yes, back in July of 2020.


I think the bulk of Revelation, Chapters 6-19, is about the 7 years leading up to Jesus's return.

The burden of my responses from this point will be more focused on Christ. When what calamity happens or the indentity of
beasts is important. But after asking the Lord for guidance I am impressed to remember that the center of the Bible's revelation must
be Christ.

My responses, you'll find, are going to lean a little away from the evil guys to highlight Christ and the church.
The angel told John something very important. That "the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of the prophecy".

I am your fellow slave and a fellow slave of your brothers who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of the prophecy. (Rev. 19:10)

Having said that about "the spirit of the prophecy" I'll address a few matters through this lense - "the testimony of Jesus."

Revelation 11 and Revelation 12 each contains the first half and second half of the 7 years. (I think I will make a table of two columns, with the verses of Revelation 11 corresponding to verses in Revelation 12.)

You know that Jesus the Lion/Lamb is one who opens the seals to the scroll in the hand of His Father in chapter 5.
The little scroll in the hands of the Angel in chapter ten is the portion of that scroll specifically dealing with
the visions of chapters 12 - 22.

Here Christ the Lion/Lamb/Stone receives the scroll of God's economy to open it for the rest of us to see.
And He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sits upon the throne. (Rev. 5:7)

John no longer has to weep. Jesus the fighting Lion of Judah, and the Redeeming Lamb, and the cornerstone of God's
living temple is the one with seven eyes like the seven eyes on the stone which Zachariah saw related to the rebulding of the temple
of God. (Zech. 3:9).

We could spend a week on this one point alone. Let's just say
Christ is the Fighter to vanquish and devour God's enemies - the Lion of the tribe of Judah.
Christ is the God-man Redeemer to purchase His poeple for eternity.
Christ is the living cornerstone to the organic temple of New Jerusalem which the building of man into God and God into man.

And I saw on the right hand of Him who sits upon the throne a scroll written within and on the back, sealed up with seven seals. (Rev. 5:1)

And one of the elders said to me, Do not weep; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so that He may open the scroll and its seven seals. (v.5)

And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures and in the midst of the elders a Lamb standing as having just been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.(v.6)

And He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sits upon the throne. (v.7)

This one opens the scroll in the hand of His Father the Creator of the universe for His purpose in Christ.
You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, for You have created all things, and because of Your will they were, and were created. (Rev. 4:11)

This initial opening of the sealed scroll of God's will by Christ is continued in "the little scoll" in His hand in chapter 10
where John is told to prophecy a second time - "you must prophesy AGAIN" after he is instructed to take the little
scroll from the hand of the Angel and to eat it.

And the Angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land lifted up His right hand to heaven (Rev. 10:5)
This Angel is a sign of Christ possessing land and sea in His return - the whole earth.

And swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there shall be delay no longer, (v.6)
The sign means the time has come for the end of the age before the millennial kingdom.

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel when he is about to trumpet, then the mystery of God is finished, as He has announced the good news to His own slaves the prophets. (v.7)
The mystery of God concerns God being dispensed into man starting with His Son and continuing with His church.
The mystery of the joining of the Divine and the human - the expansion, multiplication, enlargement of the Son of God - the God-man into God's dwelling place, Christ's Body, the living temple, the habitation of God in spirit, and the kingdom of sons of God reigning on earth and expressing the joining together of humanity with divinity.

It is time for this mystery to be concluded. This all is also "the testimony of Jesus". That is the testimony of God and man mingled together.

And the voice which I heard out of heaven, I heard again speaking with me and saying, Go, take the opened scroll in the hand of the Angel who is standing on the sea and on the land.(v.8)
This little scroll is a little portion of the great scroll sealed with seven seals. This is the second series of prophecies from chapter 12 on
focusing its beginning with the last 3.5 years.

The scroll in the Lord's hand first is seen in chapter 5 as He unseals them.
The little scroll is the contents of the "prophecy again" - a second section to the series of visions, signs.

And I went to the Angel and told Him to give me the little scroll. And He said to me, Take it and devour it, and it will make your stomach bitter, but in your mouth it will be as sweet as honey. (v.9)

And I took the little scroll out of the hand of the Angel and devoured it, and it was as sweet as honey in my mouth; and when I had eaten it, my stomach became bitter. (10)
John obediently takes and consumes the little scroll in the hands of Christ.

And they said to me, You must prophesy again over many peoples and nations and tongues and kings. (v.11)
John is about to give prophecy for a second time.

The conclusion of chapter 11 can be considered the conclusion of God's operation with Christ's return and the establishing of
His eternal kingdom at the last trumpet - the seventh trumpet.

And the seventh angel trumpeted; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever. (Rev. 11:15)
The world's kingdom has become Christ's kingdom. From this perspective it is OVER - FINISHED.

And the twenty-four elders who sit before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshipped God, (v.16)
The ancient angelic elders of the universe fall on thier faces in worship. The God-man Christ and His rewarded saints
now take up the job which they originially had, to govern God's creation. The rebellion of the ancient arch-angel Lucifer
caused them and man great trouble. That they fall on their faces means they are releived that order in the universe
has been restored completely under God's administration headed up by the God-man Jesus.

Saying, We thank You, Lord God the Almighty, He who is and who was, because You have taken Your great power and have reigned. (v.17)
This thanksgivng of the ancient elders of creation speaks for itself. They say God is no more the one "who is coming" but "He who is"
because His presence on the earth in Christ the God-man King is finally a realized and present reality.

And the nations became angry, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to give the reward to Your slaves the prophets and to the saints and to those who fear Your name, to the small and to the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth. (v.18)

We could spend much time right on this passage. But I move on to show the contrast between of the two pivotal visions of the juding yet merciful Creator with the scroll (Rev. 4) and the ark of the covenant (Rev. 11)

A good way to do this is from this statement of yours.

The overall theme (if that is the right word) of the entire bible is the conflict that God has with Satan. In Revelation 10 the mystery of God that He has declared through His servants the prophets is about drawing that conflict to a close in the days of the voice of the seventh angel.

There is the negative side of the theme and the positive side of the theme.
Going back to Genesis 1:26.

And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of heaven and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth. (Gen. 1:26)

These critical two words are the major key to the theme of the whole Bible. IMAGE / DOMINION.
God created man to express God - image.
God created man to reign for God - dominion.

God created man that the invisible Creator might be expressed through man, filling man, being in living union with man and
shining out from man.

God created man to be His deputy authority reigning on behalf of God over the enemy, guarding His creation against
any other rule and exercising God's administration over God's creation.

One side - image we may say is positive. The other side dominion is to deal with the negative.

The dominion side seems to be dealt with first in the visions concluding with the kingdoms of the world becomming
Christ's the God-man's kingdom. Then in the second section of John propesying again more emphasis is on
how the God-man and His overcomong saints will vindicate God's expression in man. We see this in the man-child (ch. 12), the firstfruits (ch. 14), the harvest (ch.14), the bridal army in heaven coming down with Christ (ch.19) overcomers rewarded for co-reiging with Christ (ch. 20), and the wife the bride of the Lamb as the New Jerusalem for eternity (chs. 21,22)

1.) The governing vision commences the first part showing that God the Creator will judge yet not totally destroy His
creation (the rainbow of mercy around His throne) and the sea of glass which becomes the lake of fire is before His throne.
God will be true to His covenant with all creation which He gave at Noah's time.

2.) The governing vision of His ark in His opened temple in heaven shows He will be true to His covenant with His saints at time
He led His redeemed into the promised land of Canaan.

Compare:

1.) Immediately I was in spirit; and behold, there was a throne set in heaven, and upon the throne there was One sitting;
And He who was sitting was like a jasper stone and a sardius in appearance, and there was a rainbow around the throne like an emerald in appearance. And around the throne there were twenty-four thrones, and upon the thrones twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and upon their heads golden crowns. (Rev. 4:2,3)
There is much to say about this which I will not write now.

2.) And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened, and the Ark of His Covenant was seen in His temple; and there were lightnings and voices and thunders and an earthquake and great hail. (Rev. 11:19)

The footnotes in the Recovery Version for Revelation 11:19:

"The Greek word refers to the inner temple. This scene is continued by 15:5. On the negative side, the throne with the rainbow (4;2-3)
is the center of all the judgments executed over the earth in chs. 6-11, whereas, on the positive side, the temple with the ark is the center of all God's accomplishments in the universe carried out in chs. 12-22. "

I stop here for length's sake.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

There will be 7 trumpet actions that will take place during the Great Tribulation. Those actions are announced by 7 angels what they will be.

The last three of the trumpet actions (i.e. 5, 6, 7) are called "woe to the inhabiters of the earth".

There will also be 7 vials of God's wrath poured out during the Great Tribulation. Generally speaking, those take place in the latter half of the Great Tribulation and several of the vials intensify what had already happened by some of the trumpet actions.

I made this chart timeline as a visual aid.

Before any of you say to me that the 7th trumpet is not before the 5th and 6th, please note what the third woe is. The third woe to the inhabiters of the earth is Satan cast down to earth having great wrath because he knows his time is short, Revelation 12:12. i.e. a time, times, half times. Revelation 12:14.

On the last day of the Great Tribulation, Jesus descends to earth, and destroys those armies in Jerusalem and vicinity that will have gathered to make war on Him. Which is the winepress of God's wrath taking place. Also at the same time, an angel given a sickle in Revelation 14:19-20 destroys the armies in the rest of Israel. You can click on the chart to get a better view.

Did you learn how to count like this in school, Doug? 1..2..3..4..7..5..6.....

If you can make the trumpets go in any order you want instead of acknowledging the fact that they obviously have an order to them (1 through 7), then you can make scripture say anything you want. You are throwing logic completely out the window. This can't be taken seriously.

Revelation 9:1-11 describes the events related to the fifth trumpet and then verse 12 says this:

12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

I'm sure you understand that each of the last 3 woes relates to trumpets 5, 6 and 7. That is obvious. Can you see there in Rev 9:12 that there are 2 more woes after the first one, which is the fifth trumpet? That places the timing of the 6th and 7th trumpets AFTER the end of the 5th trumpet. That is very clear.

Then, in Revelation 9:13-21 the events related to the sixth trumpet are described. After a parenthetical section of scripture it gets back to describing the trumpets in Revelation 11.

Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

This says the second woe is past at this point, which is after the sixth trumpet events have occurred. So, the first and second woes, represented by the 5th and 6th trumpets, are past at this point. Then it says "behold, the third doe cometh quickly". The third woe is the seventh trumpet and the events related to it are described starting in Revelation 11:15. To try to say that the seventh trumpet sounds even before the fifth trumpet does clearly contradicts the text.

 

[Douggg]

Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

What are you claiming is revealed as being the third woe to the inhanbiters of the earth?

I think you should look at my thread on "Revelation 11 and Revelation" Revelation 11 and Revelation 12 to know what the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth is.

And how long it lasts.

The woes are presented in numerical order. i.e. 5,6,7. But the timeframe they span puts the 7th trumpet, third woe, beginning before the 5th and 6th trumpet woes. And ending after the 5th and 6th trumpet woes

 

[Spiritual Jew]

What are you claiming is revealed as being the third woe to the inhanbiters of the earth?

I already explained how I see it. Just read what I said. The first woe corresponds with the fifth trumpet. The second woe corresponds with the sixth trumpet. The third woe corresponds with the seventh trumpet. Very simple. And it makes it very clear that the first woe/fifth trumpet happens first, then the second woe/sixth trumpet happens and after those are complete, the third woe/seventh trumpet occurs. It couldn't be more clear. To have the seventh trumpet sounding before or at the same time as the fifth trumpet is ludicrous and doesn't line up with the text at all.

I think you should look at my thread on "Revelation 11 and Revelation" Revelation 11 and Revelation 12 to know what the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth is.

Why do I need to do that when it's so clearly shown to be equivalent with the seventh trumpet event which is described in Revelation 11:15-19?

The woes are presented in numerical order. i.e. 5,6,7. But the timeframe they span puts the 7th trumpet, third woe, beginning before the 5th and 6th trumpet woes. And ending after the 5th and 6th trumpet woes

No, it does not and the text does not support that whatsoever. The text clearly indicates that the second woe/sixth trumpet does not begin until after the first woe/fifth trumpet has finished and it also clearly indicates that the third woe/seventh trumpet does not begin until after the second woe/sixth trumpet has finished. It couldn't be more clear and you still miss it. Your doctrinal bias prevents you from understanding the most simple things. It's sad.

 

[Douggg]

I already explained how I see it.

But my question to you was - What are you claiming is revealed as being the third woe to the inhanbiters of the earth?

You did not state what the third woe to the inhabitoers of the earth will be.