True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[Light of the East]

Come on. Are you telling me the history of your church was never violent and didn't kill people who disagreed with it?

Way to totally ignore the bulk of what I wrote and use a strawman to defend your turf.

You want to talk about violence? Let's talk about the English Protestants murdering thousands of Catholics just for the "crime" of being Catholic. Or about John Knox and the Scottish Calvinists murdering over 4,000 priests in Scotland.

You live in a glass house, sir. I wouldn't be throwing rocks if I were you.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Okay. The deeds of the Law has to do with the Jews trusting in circumcision for their salvation rather than placing faith in Christ as savior. Paul fought this fight all his life after his conversion. The Judaizers were causing a lot of problems in the Church, going around teaching that circumcision was necessary to "really be a Christian." The entire book of Galatians is about this problem, with Paul getting so angry at them that he wishes they would not stop at circumcision, but go all the way and cut off everything.

What I have found is that Protestants see the words "works of the Law" and make that to be the doing of good works. The two are not the same. We are commanded to do good works and according to John 5:28-29, Matthew 25: 31-46, Romans 2: 5-10, and Rev. 20: 12-14, good works are the standard by which eternal life will be given out. But to do what the Jews were doing, that is, to trust in circumcision as being necessary for salvation, is incorrect. Salvation is a free gift which has no works or Law attached to it. Christ as the Last Adam, did what Adam failed to do. He perfectly obeyed His Father and took on our broken human nature to heal it and offer us a way out of the dilemma of being slaves to sin.

Circumcision!
Paul states no one will be declared righteous in Gods sight by observing the law/works of the law. Where do you get he only means circumcision from. He states the law, not part of it!

 

[stuart lawrence]

Way to totally ignore the bulk of what I wrote and use a strawman to defend your turf.

You want to talk about violence? Let's talk about the English Protestants murdering thousands of Catholics just for the "crime" of being Catholic. Or about John Knox and the Scottish Calvinists murdering over 4,000 priests in Scotland.

You live in a glass house, sir. I wouldn't be throwing rocks if I were you.

I didn't start throwing rocks, you did

 

[Open Heart]

So which Laws did Jesus not fulfill? He said it was finished.

The expression "fulfill the law" in Second Temple Judaism was used by rabbis to mean they offered a way for their disciples to more effectively keep the whole law. It does not mean the law is now kept for everyone and no one need keep it anymore.

It is finished simply refers to the act of Jesus' suffering and dying, which I'm sure he was glad was over.

 

[Light of the East]

No. I see these camps as being more outwardly religious even more so than Protestants. They are even farther from what I believe to be what I see how the believer is pictured in the New Testament. For Jesus said, "...Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces" (Mark 12:38).....

The writings of the New Testament took place at a time when the Church was in its infant or seed stage. To try to make the case that the Church today, which is the tree in full bloom, doesn't look like the Church in the NT, which is the seed stage, is either ignorance of Jesus' teaching or just dishonest.

 

[Open Heart]

First, no true believer is self taught. All true believers are ultimately taught by the Spirit or God. For the Spirit shall guide us into all truth.

Guiding is not the same as teaching. If teaching were not necessary, God would never have provided us with Apostles, Presbyters and Bishops, and other teachers.

 

[Open Heart]

There is no board of directors.

You are incorrect. There are deacons, presbyters and bishops, all ordained via the laying on of hands.

 

[Light of the East]

I didn't start throwing rocks, you did

Nice dodge. My telling the truth is not the same as smearing the Church by saying that it was "full of violence" etc. What I have said agrees with 2 millenia of Christians and their teaching. When I mention the word heresy, I am in good company. Too bad you see calling out heresy as "throwing rocks."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I was a Catholic-hating Protestant bigot for 25 years. I know all the lies about and all the arguments against the Catholic faith very thoroughly, and when I was challenged by Catholics, I knew the Bible well enough to go to it and try to refute them. The problem is that

There is a problem, though. I don't hate Catholics. I am told by God in His Word to love the sinner but hate the sin.

A.) history is against you. I found out that the Early Church was not Presbyterian or Baptist, but had the distinct markings of being Catholic

Man made history is not my spiritual authority. God's Word is my authority. Show me where the Catholic church and it's practices are openly taught in the New Testament. For when I read the New Testament, and I do not see anything that resembles your church in any way.

B.) that the teachings of Protestantism were not taught in the first century and there is no record of them ever existing prior to 1517 and Luther's rebellion. The idea that they did exist is nowhere supported in Christian history.

I am not a Protestant. I merely believe in God's Word.

C.) that because we live in the New Covenant, we are a covenant people. Therefore, we are governed by the rules of covenant. Only the Catholic faith is supportable by covenant principles. Protestantism violates rules of covenant, therefore, it cannot be true.

Again, I am not a Protestant. I am non-denominational as my profile says. I do not believe everything that Protestants believe in regards to Scripture.

D.) that much of the writings of men such as Lorriane Boettner, Jack Chick, and other bigots, were birthed in hatred for the Catholic Church and total dishonesty.

While I may not agree of how others teach against the Catholic church and their methods, that does not mean that all of what they say is untrue.

E.) what fruits do you see in Protestantism? Killing innocent people simply because they are Catholic? Is that the fruit you are so impressed by. Pretty rotten fruit I would say.

Your kidding right? Catholics persecuted real Christians for centuries. But then again, I do not like to get into debates about History recorded by man because it is not always accurate. However, the Word of God is accurate and it does allude to Mytery Babylon being very similar to the Catholic church today (and how the blood of the saints is on their hands). Have no idea what i am talking about? Check out this post I had written here at Chistian Chat.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...c-church-evil-wrong-herasy-2.html#post1841565


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[Open Heart]

No. I see these camps as being more outwardly religious even more so than Protestants. They are even farther from what I believe to be what I see how the believer is pictured in the New Testament. For Jesus said, "...Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces" (Mark 12:38).

....

The primary purpose of the Protestant camp is to set one's self apart from the Catholics (and EOs). For example, Protestants are opposed to the Pope. Protestants are opposed to Transubstantiation. Protestants are opposed to the veneration of Mary. You get the idea.

 

[Open Heart]

There is a problem, though. I don't hate Catholics. I am told by God in His Word to love the sinner but hate the sin.

LOL I'm a sinner because I'm Catholic????

 

[Open Heart]

Catholics persecuted real Christians for centuries

Catholics WERE real Christians. They were the ONLY Christians for centuries. Various heretical group came and went sporadically, but there was no long term consistant other option to the Catholic church until the 1054 split.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Nice dodge. My telling the truth is not the same as smearing the Church by saying that it was "full of violence" etc. What I have said agrees with 2 millenia of Christians and their teaching. When I mention the word heresy, I am in good company. Too bad you see calling out heresy as "throwing rocks."

Ok. I know you cannot properly explain to ne what was being stated in the two quotes I gave you, that is a perfect example of why I am not a catholic

 

[Open Heart]

Paul fought this fight all his life after his conversion.

Actually what Paul fought against was the idea that Gentiles needed to become like Jews and come under the Mosaic covenant. He didn't teach the same thing to Jews: he never wrote an epistle to the Church at Jerusalem. He testified as Jew under oath that he kept every commandment and was willing to make a sacrifice at the Temple in Acts 21.

 

[Open Heart]

Way to totally ignore the bulk of what I wrote and use a strawman to defend your turf.

You want to talk about violence? Let's talk about the English Protestants murdering thousands of Catholics just for the "crime" of being Catholic. Or about John Knox and the Scottish Calvinists murdering over 4,000 priests in Scotland.

You live in a glass house, sir. I wouldn't be throwing rocks if I were you.

You tell 'em, brother!

 

[stuart lawrence]

You tell 'em, brother!

Well I wish he could elucidate a bit on the gospel message but hecserms to be finding that a bit hard to do

 

[Light of the East]

Man made history is not my spiritual authority. God's Word is my authority. Show me where the Catholic church and it's practices are openly taught in the New Testament. For when I read the New Testament, and I do not see anything that resembles your church in any way.

Let's see:

1Ti 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

No bishops in your Fundamentalist assembly. Or wherever you happen to go.

Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

No Eucharist in your assembly either.

Jhn 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them;and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

No priests to confess to as indicated in this verse.

I am not a Protestant. I merely believe in God's Word.

No, you believe in your own personal interpretation of the Bible. And it is not just Catholics with whom you disagree. You would say the same thing to other Protestants with whom you disagree.

Again, I am not a Protestant. I am non-denominational as my profile says. I do not believe Protestants believe and or obey all of what the Scriptures teach, either.

Thanks for proving my point.

Your kidding right? Catholics persecuted real Christians for centuries. But then again, I do not like to get into debates about History recorded by man because it is not always accurate. However, the Word of God is accurate and it does allude to Mystery Babylon being very similar to the Catholic church today. Have no idea what i am talking about? Check out this post I had written here at Christian Chat.

Alexander Hislop wrote the book MYSTERY BABYLON. When the publisher did a little research on it, he found terrible historical inaccuracies and outright lies. It was such an atrocious piece of workmanship, passing itself off as scholarly, that the publisher severed himself from any further relationship with the book and Hislop. If this is your "authority" on Catholicism, then shame on you.



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[Bible Highlighter]

You are incorrect. There are deacons, presbyters and bishops, all ordained via the laying on of hands.

Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. (1 Peter 5:3).

'8...and gave gifts unto men...11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;"(Ephesians 4:8; Ephesians 4:11).

"23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: 25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it." (1 Corinthians 12:23-26).

Matthew 23:11
"But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant"

How can a servant be an overlord?

Think about it.


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[Light of the East]

Ok. I know you cannot properly explain to ne what was being stated in the two quotes I gave you, that is a perfect example of why I am not a catholic

The truth does not depend upon my ability or inability to discuss it. I am not a theologian, that is, I don't know every nuance of the faith. But as a convert, I had to study my way into the Church and therefore, I do have a fair knowledge of the faith.

You, on the other hand, just have an attitude.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Catholics WERE real Christians. They were the ONLY Christians for centuries. Various heretical group came and went sporadically, but there was no long term consistant other option to the Catholic church until the 1054 split.

Sorry, I just do not see it that way at all. For if you were to sit down and make two columns on a poster sized large piece of paper and write down those verses on the lifes and beliefs of the apostles in the 1st column and then describe the life and beliefs of the Catholic priest or the RC believer today in the 2nd column, you will not see that those two columns match up in any way shape or form. This should disturb you if you claim to hold any kind of authority in the Bible.

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