True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

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Open Heart

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Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. (1 Peter 5:3).
You said there was no "board of directors." I think a heirarchy of deacons, presbyters, and bishops certainly qualifies.
 
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stuart lawrence

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The truth does not depend upon my ability or inability to discuss it. I am not a theologian, that is, I don't know every nuance of the faith. But as a convert, I had to study my way into the Church and therefore, I do have a fair knowledge of the faith.

You, on the other hand, just have an attitude.
Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness for everyone who believeth rom10:4

Sin is transgression of the law 1john 3:4

The christian has a righteousness apart from the law rom 3:21&22

The christian has no righteousness of observing the law/ works of the law rom3:20

The above is only possible I Jesus died for all a christians sins at Calvary, past, present and future. Refute that from the texts given
 
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You said there was no "board of directors." I think a heirarchy of deacons, presbyters, and bishops certainly qualifies.
But they are not a board of directors. They are not considering themselves to be overseers or overlords. They are more like spiritual guides and protectors of the flock. Nowhere did any of God's people claim to be better than another or to listen to them because they have are holding some kind of special office or position or anything. Even Peter (of whom you think was the first pope) was rebuked by Paul.

Jesus said the greatest among you is he that serves.

How exactly is an overlord a servant?

Jesus washed the disciples feet. We are to do the same for each other. There is not just one disciple who is better than everyone else who just gets his feet washed.

Think.


....
 
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Light of the East

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Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness for everyone who believeth rom10:4

There are two covenants in the Sacred Scriptures. They are the individual covenant, which is seen in the OT expressed in circumcision, which made the individual and his family members of the nation of Israel, and the corporate covenant, which was seen in Yom Kippur (Lev 16) and made national Israel the people of God.

Unfortunately, in the Scriptures, it is often unclear as to which covenant is being spoken of, leading many people to conflate the principles of the individual covenant with the corporate covenant and vice versa.

Adam's sin broke the covenant relationship of mankind corporately. Because of this violation of the Law, all mankind, who were under the federal headship of Adam, were also affected by his disobedience. Now the question is whether Paul is speaking of individual response to God or corporate response to God.

Christ established a New Covenant and a new corporate congregation of God. Many of the verses which relate to our salvation have to do with Paul establishing that there is no keeping of the Law in the Old Covenant which could restore the severed relationship between God and man. Christ alone did that, restoring mankind to God.

But this does not have to do with our individual standing before God.

Sin is transgression of the law 1 John 3:4

The christian has a righteousness apart from the law Rom 3:21&22

The christian has no righteousness of observing the law/ works of the law Rom 3:20

Historically, the Jews were dependent upon their being Jewish and their observance of the Law. Christ's title as the "Last Adam" shows us that there were many other "Adams" who could have restored the corporate covenant and returned mankind to God. All failed, for all failed to keep the Law perfectly. That obedience was needed to restore mankind to God. Paul was dealing with those who refused to see that Christ is the end of the Law which kept mankind separated from God. Christ has kept the Law, mankind is reunited to God, there is no more of the Law as regards showing us our separation from God. The New Covenant, corporately speaking, is established in Christ.

But there is still the issue of each one of us coming to salvation. This means that we must make our own covenant with Christ and by doing so, become part of the congregation of God. This individual covenant has nothing to do with the Law of God. It is guided by the principles of a covenant under a new set of laws. The Old Covenant Law showed man his separation from God and gave the Law which needed to be kept in order to restore mankind.

The New Covenant Law is based on the principles which Christ Himself said when He said that the first and greatest Law is to love God with all our being and the second Law is to love one's neighbor as one's self.

If righteousness means "right standing with God," then yes, no man could be justified by keeping the Law, because unless the Law was kept perfectly, man and mankind still remained separated from God. Yet the Scriptures are filled with statements regarding people in the Old Covenant who were righteous. So which was it? Well, it was that they were indeed righteous as far as their individual relationship with God, but they did not keep the Law in a manner which was able to restore man to God.

The above is only possible I Jesus died for all a Christians sins at Calvary, past, present and future. Refute that from the texts given

There is no such thing as dying for future sins. This is a Protestant fantasy called "forensic justification" in which it is said that because of Christ's death, God makes a judicial declaration of "not guilty" in the courts of heaven, thus wiping the entire slate clean for the Christian. That violates the principle of oaths/sanctions which is one of the five principles of a covenant relationship.
 
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Light of the East

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But they are not a board of directors. They are not considering themselves to be overseers or overlords. They are more like spiritual guides and protectors of the flock. Nowhere did any of God's people claim to be better than another or to listen to them because they have are holding some kind of special office or position or anything. Even Peter (of whom you think was the first pope) was rebuked by Paul.

Jesus said the greatest among you is he that serves.

How exactly is an overlord a servant?

Jesus washed the disciples feet. We are to do the same for each other. There is not just one disciple who is better than everyone else who just gets his feet washed.

Think....

The five principles of covenant are:

T - Transcendence (the greater offers covenant to the lesser)

H - Hierarchy (whose in charge here?)

E - Ethics (what are the rules of the covenant)

O - Oaths and sanctions (promises to keep the ethics and consequences for violations)

S - Succession (the covenant goes on from generation to generation)

Your premise violates hierarchy, or leadership. There is no covenant without covenant leadership. The Church is a covenant organization, just as national Israel was.

Read Ray Sutton's book on the covenant - THAT YOU MAY PROSPER - to get handle on a covenant and how it works. You can read it online for free at I.C.E. Freebooks It is, BTW, a Protestant website, so you won't get Papist cooties if you go there.
 
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stuart lawrence

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There are two covenants in the Sacred Scriptures. They are the individual covenant, which is seen in the OT expressed in circumcision, which made the individual and his family members of the nation of Israel, and the corporate covenant, which was seen in Yom Kippur (Lev 16) and made national Israel the people of God.

Unfortunately, in the Scriptures, it is often unclear as to which covenant is being spoken of, leading many people to conflate the principles of the individual covenant with the corporate covenant and vice versa.

Adam's sin broke the covenant relationship of mankind corporately. Because of this violation of the Law, all mankind, who were under the federal headship of Adam, were also affected by his disobedience. Now the question is whether Paul is speaking of individual response to God or corporate response to God.

Christ established a New Covenant and a new corporate congregation of God. Many of the verses which relate to our salvation have to do with Paul establishing that there is no keeping of the Law in the Old Covenant which could restore the severed relationship between God and man. Christ alone did that, restoring mankind to God.

But this does not have to do with our individual standing before God.



Historically, the Jews were dependent upon their being Jewish and their observance of the Law. Christ's title as the "Last Adam" shows us that there were many other "Adams" who could have restored the corporate covenant and returned mankind to God. All failed, for all failed to keep the Law perfectly. That obedience was needed to restore mankind to God. Paul was dealing with those who refused to see that Christ is the end of the Law which kept mankind separated from God. Christ has kept the Law, mankind is reunited to God, there is no more of the Law as regards showing us our separation from God. The New Covenant, corporately speaking, is established in Christ.

But there is still the issue of each one of us coming to salvation. This means that we must make our own covenant with Christ and by doing so, become part of the congregation of God. This individual covenant has nothing to do with the Law of God. It is guided by the principles of a covenant under a new set of laws. The Old Covenant Law showed man his separation from God and gave the Law which needed to be kept in order to restore mankind.

The New Covenant Law is based on the principles which Christ Himself said when He said that the first and greatest Law is to love God with all our being and the second Law is to love one's neighbor as one's self.

If righteousness means "right standing with God," then yes, no man could be justified by keeping the Law, because unless the Law was kept perfectly, man and mankind still remained separated from God. Yet the Scriptures are filled with statements regarding people in the Old Covenant who were righteous. So which was it? Well, it was that they were indeed righteous as far as their individual relationship with God, but they did not keep the Law in a manner which was able to restore man to God.



There is no such thing as dying for future sins. This is a Protestant fantasy called "forensic justification" in which it is said that because of Christ's death, God makes a judicial declaration of "not guilty" in the courts of heaven, thus wiping the entire slate clean for the Christian. That violates the principle of oaths/sanctions which is one of the five principles of a covenant relationship.
Well I read it all, unfortunately your conclusions contradict what Paul plainly stated.
But you probably have affinity with Jason!

You see, as I am sure your opinions are in line with your church, I could never be a catholic. Scholars and theologians theologised the plain word to mean something other than it clearly states. But Paul did warn us about scholars and philosophers didn't he 1cor ch1
 
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stuart lawrence

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There are two covenants in the Sacred Scriptures. They are the individual covenant, which is seen in the OT expressed in circumcision, which made the individual and his family members of the nation of Israel, and the corporate covenant, which was seen in Yom Kippur (Lev 16) and made national Israel the people of God.

Unfortunately, in the Scriptures, it is often unclear as to which covenant is being spoken of, leading many people to conflate the principles of the individual covenant with the corporate covenant and vice versa.

Adam's sin broke the covenant relationship of mankind corporately. Because of this violation of the Law, all mankind, who were under the federal headship of Adam, were also affected by his disobedience. Now the question is whether Paul is speaking of individual response to God or corporate response to God.

Christ established a New Covenant and a new corporate congregation of God. Many of the verses which relate to our salvation have to do with Paul establishing that there is no keeping of the Law in the Old Covenant which could restore the severed relationship between God and man. Christ alone did that, restoring mankind to God.

But this does not have to do with our individual standing before God.



Historically, the Jews were dependent upon their being Jewish and their observance of the Law. Christ's title as the "Last Adam" shows us that there were many other "Adams" who could have restored the corporate covenant and returned mankind to God. All failed, for all failed to keep the Law perfectly. That obedience was needed to restore mankind to God. Paul was dealing with those who refused to see that Christ is the end of the Law which kept mankind separated from God. Christ has kept the Law, mankind is reunited to God, there is no more of the Law as regards showing us our separation from God. The New Covenant, corporately speaking, is established in Christ.

But there is still the issue of each one of us coming to salvation. This means that we must make our own covenant with Christ and by doing so, become part of the congregation of God. This individual covenant has nothing to do with the Law of God. It is guided by the principles of a covenant under a new set of laws. The Old Covenant Law showed man his separation from God and gave the Law which needed to be kept in order to restore mankind.

The New Covenant Law is based on the principles which Christ Himself said when He said that the first and greatest Law is to love God with all our being and the second Law is to love one's neighbor as one's self.

If righteousness means "right standing with God," then yes, no man could be justified by keeping the Law, because unless the Law was kept perfectly, man and mankind still remained separated from God. Yet the Scriptures are filled with statements regarding people in the Old Covenant who were righteous. So which was it? Well, it was that they were indeed righteous as far as their individual relationship with God, but they did not keep the Law in a manner which was able to restore man to God.



There is no such thing as dying for future sins. This is a Protestant fantasy called "forensic justification" in which it is said that because of Christ's death, God makes a judicial declaration of "not guilty" in the courts of heaven, thus wiping the entire slate clean for the Christian. That violates the principle of oaths/sanctions which is one of the five principles of a covenant relationship.
Can i ask you something? Do you love God with all your heart? If you do, would you view the penalty for sin being removed from you as a licence to go out and sin as much as you want? A person who in their heart loved God couldn't do that could they, for love doesn't seek to offend the one you love.
The people who need the penalty of sin in place are those who don't love God
 
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stuart lawrence

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There are two covenants in the Sacred Scriptures. They are the individual covenant, which is seen in the OT expressed in circumcision, which made the individual and his family members of the nation of Israel, and the corporate covenant, which was seen in Yom Kippur (Lev 16) and made national Israel the people of God.

Unfortunately, in the Scriptures, it is often unclear as to which covenant is being spoken of, leading many people to conflate the principles of the individual covenant with the corporate covenant and vice versa.

Adam's sin broke the covenant relationship of mankind corporately. Because of this violation of the Law, all mankind, who were under the federal headship of Adam, were also affected by his disobedience. Now the question is whether Paul is speaking of individual response to God or corporate response to God.

Christ established a New Covenant and a new corporate congregation of God. Many of the verses which relate to our salvation have to do with Paul establishing that there is no keeping of the Law in the Old Covenant which could restore the severed relationship between God and man. Christ alone did that, restoring mankind to God.

But this does not have to do with our individual standing before God.



Historically, the Jews were dependent upon their being Jewish and their observance of the Law. Christ's title as the "Last Adam" shows us that there were many other "Adams" who could have restored the corporate covenant and returned mankind to God. All failed, for all failed to keep the Law perfectly. That obedience was needed to restore mankind to God. Paul was dealing with those who refused to see that Christ is the end of the Law which kept mankind separated from God. Christ has kept the Law, mankind is reunited to God, there is no more of the Law as regards showing us our separation from God. The New Covenant, corporately speaking, is established in Christ.

But there is still the issue of each one of us coming to salvation. This means that we must make our own covenant with Christ and by doing so, become part of the congregation of God. This individual covenant has nothing to do with the Law of God. It is guided by the principles of a covenant under a new set of laws. The Old Covenant Law showed man his separation from God and gave the Law which needed to be kept in order to restore mankind.

The New Covenant Law is based on the principles which Christ Himself said when He said that the first and greatest Law is to love God with all our being and the second Law is to love one's neighbor as one's self.

If righteousness means "right standing with God," then yes, no man could be justified by keeping the Law, because unless the Law was kept perfectly, man and mankind still remained separated from God. Yet the Scriptures are filled with statements regarding people in the Old Covenant who were righteous. So which was it? Well, it was that they were indeed righteous as far as their individual relationship with God, but they did not keep the Law in a manner which was able to restore man to God.



There is no such thing as dying for future sins. This is a Protestant fantasy called "forensic justification" in which it is said that because of Christ's death, God makes a judicial declaration of "not guilty" in the courts of heaven, thus wiping the entire slate clean for the Christian. That violates the principle of oaths/sanctions which is one of the five principles of a covenant relationship.
Can you shorten your posts please, I struggle with long posts, too much to take in
Thanks
 
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Light of the East

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Can i ask you something? Do you love God with all your heart? If you do, would you view the penalty for sin being removed from you as a licence to go out and sin as much as you want? A person who in their heart loved God couldn't do that could they, for love doesn't seek to offend the one you love.

No, I don't love God with all my heart. Despite my prayers and efforts to do so, seeing that He is so worthy of our love, I yet fail to be perfect in this. It is exactly this lack of perfect love which makes our sins so enticing to us when we are tempted.

The part I put in bold is the heart of the Law. Jesus reduced all the externals to two: love God supremely and love your neighbor as yourself. I haven't been able to synthesize it completely yet, but I see somehow that all of the "laws" which are given to us really have to do with love and expressing that love.
 
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stuart lawrence

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No, I don't love God with all my heart. Despite my prayers and efforts to do so, seeing that He is so worthy of our love, I yet fail to be perfect in this. It is exactly this lack of perfect love which makes our sins so enticing to us when we are tempted.

The part I put in bold is the heart of the Law. Jesus reduced all the externals to two: love God supremely and love your neighbor as yourself. I haven't been able to synthesize it completely yet, but I see somehow that all of the "laws" which are given to us really have to do with love and expressing that love.
Do you think you would love God more if you knew the penalty for sin had been removed from your life? Is it possible you would be so grateful your heart would overflow with love and gratitude for God?
But even if you don't love God with all your heart(I admire your honesty) you do love God don't you?
Only Paul had an idea that is strange to many
He believed if a person knew they were not under a law of righteousness before God(the penalty of sin had been removed from them) sin would not be their master
 
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Open Heart

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Sorry, I just do not see it that way at all. For if you were to sit down and make two columns on a poster sized large piece of paper and write down those verses on the lifes and beliefs of the apostles in the 1st column and then describe the life and beliefs of the Catholic priest or the RC believer today in the 2nd column, you will not see that those two columns match up in any way shape or form. This should disturb you if you claim to hold any kind of authority in the Bible.

...
Oh I don't see it that way AT ALL. The early church was Catholic, not Evangelical. That is specifically why I left evangelicalism and became a Catholic.
 
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Open Heart

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But they are not a board of directors. They are not considering themselves to be overseers or overlords. They are more like spiritual guides and protectors of the flock. Nowhere did any of God's people claim to be better than another or to listen to them because they have are holding some kind of special office or position or anything. Even Peter (of whom you think was the first pope) was rebuked by Paul.
Hello. The word Bishop (episkopos) translates as "Overseer."

Paul could rebuke Peter because Paul was a fellow Apostle.
 
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Open Heart

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How exactly is an overlord a servant?
When an overseer serves the congregation by teaching them the gospel faithfully, when he administers the body and blood, when he oversees the distribution of food and clothing to those in need... Yes, he is an overseer who is a servant.
 
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The five principles of covenant are:

T - Transcendence (the greater offers covenant to the lesser)

H - Hierarchy (whose in charge here?)

E - Ethics (what are the rules of the covenant)

O - Oaths and sanctions (promises to keep the ethics and consequences for violations)

S - Succession (the covenant goes on from generation to generation)

Your premise violates hierarchy, or leadership. There is no covenant without covenant leadership. The Church is a covenant organization, just as national Israel was.

Read Ray Sutton's book on the covenant - THAT YOU MAY PROSPER - to get handle on a covenant and how it works. You can read it online for free at I.C.E. Freebooks It is, BTW, a Protestant website, so you won't get Papist cooties if you go there.

Thanks but no thanks. I prefer the Bible instead.


....
 
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ToBeLoved

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Oh I don't see it that way AT ALL. The early church was Catholic, not Evangelical. That is specifically why I left evangelicalism and became a Catholic.
How do you figure that? Have you read any of Paul's epistles?
 
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When an overseer serves the congregation by teaching them the gospel faithfully, when he administers the body and blood, when he oversees the distribution of food and clothing to those in need... Yes, he is an overseer who is a servant.
I already provided verses that show we are not lords over people. Jesus said the greatest among you serves. I just do not really see those in the Catholic church as being in humble positions but in positions of looking religious and holy (as a part of a show) before other men. Jesus said beward of the scribes who wear long robes so as to be seen in the market place. This truth would obviously still hold true today. For there is nothing new under the sun; And the first religious individuals that I can think of that would fit Jesus' description, would be the priests and or the papacy.

Romans 12:16 says, "Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits"


...
 
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